Taking Morning Glory seeds sublingually

[ajlala]

As is well known, the downside of morning glory seeds is the nausea they induce on reaching your stomach. In addition, extractions often have uneven results.

At the same time, it's known that LSA can be absorbed sublingually.

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SWIM was planning tonight for this method for a dose of 500 seeds:

1. Wash 500 morning glory seeds with cold water in a sieve.

2. Chew 166 at a time, and hold the pulp in the mouth for 20 minutes (while browsing internet with a bowl next to you), then spit out the seeds, and wash your mouth.

3. Repeat 3 times for a total of 500 seeds.

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Has anyone yet tried this kind of sublingual administration of morning glory?

 

[downwardsfromzero]

I recently got mild effects from 22 peeled, chewed fresh seeds. The intention was to absorb any alkaloids through the oral mucosa. That's basically the same as sublingual. Because the seeds had been peeled, it was not necessary to spit out any material.

What seeds are you planning on using? You'll get much better results using freshly-picked seeds, and now is the time of year for it.

It would be prudent to assess the potency of your material before jumping straight in with 450 seeds. That may well turn out to be more than you bargained for, especially if you're using fresh material.

The nauseating material is contained in the (usually dark) skin of the seeds so if you are planning to chew the seeds it's worth the fiddly process of peeling them. More typically, a cold water extraction is performed. This method is described in detail in the LSA section of the forum. Basically, the nauseating substances are insoluble in cold water. Thus the desirable alkaloids can be separated into a conveniently drinkable solution.

Techniques for using morning glory seeds are described at considerable length here on the forum. It would be worth your while searching for them.

 

[Shall ba]

I recently had 30 ground up. Didn't feel anything.

 

[ajlala]

Reporting back, after taking a lower dosage in the end

SWIM found sublingual administration was very pleasant (no nausea or anything). However, the effect was perhaps weaker (or just more sedative) than if you swallow them or do an extraction .

Chewing through 200 seeds, leaving them under the tongue, and spitting them out after 30 minutes, had effects similar to smoking 2 joints, including with a strong feeling of sedation and very heavy bodyload, but with much slower onset, and only peaking about 4 hours later, then lasting for about 6 hours.

The seeds were taken sublingually (chewed in batches for several minutes and then spat out).

 

[ajlala]

I recently got mild effects from 22 peeled, chewed fresh seeds. The intention was to absorb any alkaloids through the oral mucosa. That's basically the same as sublingual. Because the seeds had been peeled, it was not necessary to spit out any material.

What seeds are you planning on using? You'll get much better results using freshly-picked seeds, and now is the time of year for it.

Thanks for the interesting reply.

SWIM's seeds were just ones from the gardening shop.

However, chewing them, holding in the mouth sublingually for 25 minutes, and then spitting them out, seemed to result in the effects being very sedative and with a very heavy bodyload, and feeling of drunkeness, more than anything - have you also found this?

 

[ajlala]

I recently had 30 ground up. Didn't feel anything.

At 200 seeds sublingually, you should feel quite strong effects (although with very slow onset). In my case, a relatively strong, warm sedative effect and general drunkenness, imaginative expansion, peaking around 3 hours afterwards.

 

[Kajlian]

I think you'll get better results if you crush the seeds first, then let them soak for around an hour, stirring occasionally, in some slightly acidified water (a few drops of lemon juice should do the trick). The idea is to extract most of the active alkaloids into the acidified water.

After letting the mixture soak for a while you can put the liquid together with the seed pulp in your mouth and wait 20 minutes or so before spitting it out.

Also, be careful not to let the solution get warm, ideally not above room temperature.

LSA/LSH might also be sensitive to light (UV) like LSD is, so maybe keep it in a dark place for good measure.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Echoing Kajilian to a large extent here, this is (some of) what the late Dale Pendell (R.I.P) had to say about morning glory:

Mesoamerican Indians ingested the seeds in a drink for purposes of divination. Their method of preparation was the same as that currently employed by the Mixe, the Zapotecs, and the Mazatecs. The seeds are finely ground (by a virgin), soaked in cold water for a few hours, and the resulting infusion then strained through cloth to remove the solid matter. Unless chemistry and/or self-experiment determine some other method more effective, the wise student best pay attention to the traditional methods of those with the greater experience.

As few as seven or thirteen seeds of some Mexican tlitliltzin [morning glory] can be an active dose. Ott recommends starting with no more than 20 to 25 seeds, but few North American varieties have that kind of power; 200 to 400 seeds is more common.

The methodology for experimentation should be the same as when testing a new mushroom for edibility: start small. See how well your body endures the poisons, and proceed from there. As the incautious mycophage has long ago been weeded out from their fraternity, mushroom-hunters are a good group to learn from.

(Actually, that's not the best advice for mushroom tasting I've heard. Never eat any unidentified mushroom! Other than that, the advice stands )

 

[ajlala]

Thanks for the responses!

Both suggestions sound good
SWIM was lazy again tonight though, and has just chewed through (and spat out) 260 seeds now. He'll report back if upping the dose makes a difference in the sublingual method.

Going by last time, it takes about 2-3 hours after chewing them, to start to kick in with this sublingual administration.

 

[ajlala]

The seeds are finely ground (by a virgin), soaked in cold water for a few hours, and the resulting infusion then strained through cloth to remove the solid matter.

This is definitely the kind of respect this very mellow and spiritual substance deserves.

 

[Aum_Shanti]

soaked in cold water for a few hours,

This is strange, as it directly opposes the reports from others, like e.g. Wasson, who specifically said, they only soaked them "briefly" "for a short time" in the water.

Was this also a personal observation during a ceremony from Dale Pendell (like e.g. from Wasson or Hofmann), or did he go by the writings of others?

IMHO if you really pestle it to a very fine mush, like they did traditionally, you will very likely not need a long soaking time.

in some slightly acidified water (a few drops of lemon juice should do the trick).

IMHO a very good idea, ideally I think one would add some tartaric acid, or maleic acid. The reason why IMHO this is a good idea is, because LSH decomposes already in neutral water. So making it slightly acidic will prevent this mostly. But not too acidic, as this will push isomerization. But then again, if you only soak it for a short time, I would think it's not a big problem. At least in the traditional way, they didn't add any acid.

LSA/LSH might also be sensitive to light (UV) like LSD is, so maybe keep it in a dark place for good measure.

AFAIR all ergolines have this sensitivity to light, as it is a property of the ergoline base structure, yielding lumi-ergolines.

I could well think, that's why traditionally they started with the pestling in the evening/night.

 

[ajlala]

SWIM was lazy again tonight though, and has just chewed through (and spat out) 230 seeds now. I'll report back if upping the dose makes a difference in the sublingual method.

The effect at this sublingual dose of chewing 260 seeds was extremely pleasant, several hours of being stoned, with bodyload and sedation equivalent of smoking 2 joints of an indica strain of cannabis (except that you have to wait 2-3 hours before the effects kick in).

Sublingual dosing seems relatively easy, and avoids all the unpleasant side-effects (nausea).

The only thing is it is probably significantly weaker, requiring you to use more seeds for the same effect.

It took about 40 minutes, to chew through the 260 seeds - He doesn't think the taste is even unpleasant if you don't swallow it.

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SWIM will try 350 Heavenly Blue seeds next time, to see if I can get more interesting effects by increasing the dosage.

 

[ajlala]

AFAIR all ergolines have this sensitivity to light, as it is a property of the ergoline base structure, yielding lumi-ergolines.

I could well think, that's why traditionally they started with the pestling in the evening/night.

In a way, aren't these factors, a reason why it's quite good just to chew the seeds directly?

It means there is no exposure to light, and the LSA appears to absorb quite readily through your mouth.

In a perfect world, LSA could be added to chewing gum, the same way that nicotine gum works today.

 

[Aum_Shanti]

In a way, aren't these factors, a reason why it's quite good just to chew the seeds directly?

I did it also that way the first few times, but I found the taste getting worse over time, up 'til the point I couldn't do it anymore that way.

It means there is no exposure to light, and the LSA appears to absorb quite readily through your mouth.

In a perfect world, LSA could be added to chewing gum, the same way that nicotine gum works today.

Please do not make the common mistake to think MG/HBWR seeds=LSA.

Too many people make that mistake. I also always had this wrong POV (as it gets narrated all the time on the net), until someone here made me aware, that it doesn't seem to be the LSA, and then I went on a book/paper journey to find the possible culprit(s)...

See here:
Which are the active components of MGs? - LSD, LSA, LSH - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

In the meantime, I personally think (just a gut instinct) it's very likely mainly the LSH. But until someone does make human tests with pure LSH, we will never know. But is is IMHO the only one being that fragile, that the observations regarding fresh/old seeds and regarding extraction (does seem very fragile on extraction) seem to fit.

Also, LSH would probably be the closest natural ergoline (currently known) to LSD. It is very close to LAE-32.

 

[Kajlian]

Please do not make the common mistake to think MG/HBWR seeds=LSA. [/b]

Too many people make that mistake. I also always had this wrong POV (as it gets narrated all the time on the net), until someone here made me aware, that it doesn't seem to be the LSA, and then I went on a book/paper journey to find the possible culprit(s)...

See here:
Which are the active components of MGs? - LSD, LSA, LSH - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

In the meantime, I personally think (just a gut instinct) it's very likely mainly the LSH. But until someone does make human tests with pure LSH, we will never know.

Also, LSH would probably be the closest natural ergoline (currently known) to LSD. It is very close to LAE-32.

I believe that LSA would also contribute to the effects. Both LSA and LSH have been found in HBWR/MG seeds in varying amounts. I think the LSA is what makes the seeds slightly sedative and LSH is responsible for most of the psychedelic effects. Hoffman said LSA was more like a sedative than a psychedelic. "The intramuscular administration of a 500 microgram dose produced a "tired, dreamy state with an inability to maintain clear thoughts."

I've tried mixing the seeds with peppermint oil, and that makes the effects way more psychedelic and LSD-like. This might be because the acetaldehyde in the peppermint could react with the LSA to form even more LSH. I would strongly recommend trying this if you want more of a psychedelic effect instead of the "stoned effect" the seeds can give by themselves.

 

[Aum_Shanti]

This might be because the acetaldehyde in the peppermint could react with the LSA to form even more LSH.

I hardly think this is true. Every chemist I asked so far clearly refuted this reaction to take as easily place like that. As you can read in the thread I linked, some reaction occurs (in high concentration acetaldehyde), but it is not clear into what...

Regarding LSA: From some user reports here, I could actually think, that LSA is not really synergizing, but instead killing the effect of the others.

But yeah, there are also surely other active ergolines in there, no doubt (e.g. also Ergometrine), which was also always mentioned like that by Hofmann (he always listed several compounds which according to him could be responsible for the effects). But IMHO it's probably the LSH which is mainly (not exclusively) the cause to give the psychedelic effect.

BTW IMHO it would be expected that already LSH by itself would have some narcotic component, in relation to LSD, as it is very close to LAE (only an added hydroxy-group), and this has been described by Hofmann as:

is also qualitatively different: it is characterized by a narcotic component

 

[Kajlian]

Maybe the peppermint breaks some of the LSA down into something that's not active at all. This way you don't get the overpowering sedative effect from the LSA and the other compounds are given more room to show their effects instead. This is just speculation of course but might be a possibility.

 

[ajlala]

Thanks for the interesting replies.

SWIM is taking the 320 Heavenly Blue seeds tonight, and he will report back later.

 

[Kajlian]

Thanks for the interesting replies.

SWIM is taking the 320 Heavenly Blue seeds tonight, and he will report back later.

Have a nice ride

You gonna do an extraction of some sort? Peppermint? Or just eat them as is?

 

[ajlala]

Thanks so much!

SWIM just chewed them as they were (in two batches), and spat them out after 30 minutes each. (He hadn't prepared any peppermint oil yet).

The only downside, was that his tongue went numb by the end (although only for 10 minutes).

The dose in the end was 340 seeds.

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SWIM can feel the beginning of the come up already, with a strong feeling of nervous sedation, only 1 hour in (much earlier than last time).