[Originally thread started as a theoretical question, but now with all the data provided I replaced the original text. You can read it at Post #3, so the discussion along this thread was based around that text, not this current one]
So here is a TEK that can be used to convert Mescaline Citrate to Mescaline Benzoate, which is smokable. A little disclaimer: I dont think it's too much worth it, but I will just dump all the relevant information here, for the sake of documentation purpose.
Vaporization Theory
We all know that we can easily vaporize a huge load of freebase alkaloids. Most of them require temperatures of 150 - 200 °C. Many people (including myself) had the believe that these alkaloid molecules would simply detach as solitary molecules from a molten freebase-liquid into gas phase and then fly towards the lucky smoker, ultimately being absorbed in the lung and cause their effects. But here you have a nice explanation that this is not the case. The most meaningful arguments against this is that the vapor can actually be seen and it happens at a temperature which is far below the proposed boiling point, both indicating that not a true boiling process is happening, but instead an aerosol is formed. This aerosol can be formed way below the actual boiling point, so you more precisely just inhale tiny droplets, which form visible vapor due to light refraction.
As this seems to be the process while evaporation of freebase drugs, it seems that this can even be done with Alkaloid-Salts. The only requirement is that the acid used to create that salt is "compatible" with that aerosol formation. The biggest requirement is the ability to melt prior to ultimate Alkaloid degradation. For mineral acids that is not possible (DMT-Chloride, DMT-Sulfate, DMT-Phosphate, ...), but many organic acids indeed create DMT salts which melt before 200 °C. These actually can vaporize as they also form the same aerosol droplets, with an even bigger distance to the actual boiling point.
Now the big question is: Which acids are "compatible" and why? There is only empiric data and no validation on anything, but it seems that the acid needs to have the least possible amount of intermolecular interactions with itself and Mescaline, so naturally at best only low polarity / low electron-count groups. Secondly it seems beneficial if the acid is monovalent, meaning that 1x acid carries only 1x R-COOH group. Reason is that this also heavily increases interaction with itself, forming Dimers of R-COOH...HOOC-R. The last requirement is not really one, but it would be beneficial if the acid can form a crystalline salt, which rules out any alkane acid like Acetic Acid, which will always give a brown goo. If you create this, you dont have much beneficials over simply using the freebase as this will probably also degrade fast ...
Now here is the visualization of the given "rules". As you can see a divalent or trivalent acid like Fumaric Acid and Citric Acid are not that great for vaporization. They only vaporize partially and the rest gets combusted. The data does not tell if it is due to a chemical reaction of "reactive parts" of these acids or if vaporization simply is slowed down, so the chance of non-specific thermal degradation simply increases. In any way you can see that Benzoic Acid vaporizes cleanly to a very high %, only above 230 °C something happens, maybe some degradation starting, so evaporation should happen at ~ 160-190 °C.
Dont be fooled by the absolute values: They more give an idea if the compound will evaporate cleanly (the curve drops into very low values) or if strong pyrolysis happens (curve will stop at high values).
Regarding the ideal vaporization temperature, this is not where the curve hits low values, but where the curves actual start dropping. For Mescaline Benzoate it would mean 170 °C is just fine for full evaporation - if sufficient airflow is granted, taking away the aerosol droplets above the liquid layer, enabling formation of more droplets and so on.
How to get Mescaline Benzoate?
Trials to directly precipitate Mescaline Benzoate at the end of a potential CIELO variation failed. Solubility is very high, in contrast to DMT Benzoate, which for example easily precipitates from Toluene and Limonene. Even Limonene is still a too good solvent for Mescaline Benzoate and prevents crystal formation or maybe other molecules from the cactus that are also dissolved at the end increase solubility and prevent precipitation. The most promising route would be extract from totally dry Cacti Powder with hot Naphtha and add Benzoic Acid, but also this did not give great results so far ...
Therefore the only working way is to create it from pure isolated Mescaline salts. As smoking this is anyways not the ideal form of consumption, it would anyways not matter being forced making a conversion by hand just for fun ... As a sidenote step 2.1 of the TEK is not easy if you just perform it with small amounts like < 200 mg.
(1.1) Take 500 mg Mescaline Citrate (= 260 mg Mescaline Freebase) and mix with 300 mg Ca(OH)2 until homogeneously
(1.2) Add 2 ml water and mix again
(1.3) Evaporate until completely dry. After crushing it must fall around free flowing like the powder at step (1.1). You can use an oven at 50 °C with air ventilation on. You can track the weight and aim for reaching (500 + 300 (- 150 water) =) 650 mg powder.
(2.1) Place it in a filter paper (I used a lab glass filter) and NOTE TOTAL WEIGHT (optional, but recommended). Pour 10 x 5 ml Aceton on top of the filter, collect Aceton coming out.
(2.2) Dry the filter + remaining powder at 50 °C in your oven COMPLETELY. Check weight again, you must have removed ~ 260 mg (all the Mescaline Freebase). If not, use more Aceton. Possibly you will only reach like 95 % removal, dont worry. You will see the remaining powder turning from light-brown to totally white again (Ca(OH)2 + Ca-Citrate). Afterwards make sure you got no Ca(OH)2 traces in your Aceton. It is very fine, so some might have gone through paper filters.
(2.3) Evaporate all the Aceton. The brown liquid is Freebase Mescaline. Sadly it did not solidify in Freezer, but according to Literature it could be solid, but react with H2O + CO2 from air over time, forming Mescaline-Carbonate.
(3.1) Calculate the removed weight x 0,63 (Ratio of Mescaline to Benzoic Acid) and weigh that amount of Benzoic Acid. For 260 mg Freebase Mescaline it would be (260 x 0,63 =) 164 mg. You can also use 150 mg to make sure you 100 % will not have excess Benzoic Acid that you risk smoke later on. Dissolve both Freebase Mescaline and Benzoic Acid in 1 ml Toluene each (for Benzoic Acid might need heat).
(3.2) Combine both into 1 and put into Freezer. Strangly it will take over-night to precipitate.
(3.3) As we use so little Toluene, you cannot decant. Instead place into Filter and wash with Naphtha until white or faint-coloured. At this point only 206 mg from theoretical 424 mg were collected. You may evaporate the wash Toluene-Naphtha-Fraction separately to recover the rest. You can check if you really got Mescaline Benzoate by putting a small crystal in a tiny water droplet. It will dissolve, while Benzoic acid would not (and Freebase Mescaline would not be a solid).
Smoking Mescaline Benzoate
Smoking this stuff should only be done in a device that allows precise heat control. Loveall and DF0 have already pointed out that Benzoic Acid carries the risk of decarboxylation at high temperatures, which would create cangerogeneous Benzene. Dont use an open flame at random distances, the distance for over-heating by a few 100's °C might be pretty small.
I used my Spice Rotator dab rig, that has a tea light mounted on a certain distance, which is perfect for smoking DMT. That means it should be pretty constant around 170 °C, this value was used as the vaporization diagram (at start of post) is quite in accordance with that.
In order to potentially maximize the effect also 150 mg Harmin were eaten 1,5 h prior to smoking. Indeed it was mentioned across this site that the effect on cactus would be low. But in my feeling Harmalas anyways just extend a trip instead of potentiating. That is why probably long-lasting trips dont get any synergy, as they anyways last longer than the Harmalas itself. But when smoking a short-lasting trip might still get some effects I hoped.
Smoking 200 mg Mescaline Benzoate took ~ 20 min, so apparently 10 mg / 1 min can easily be smoked.
It was observable that the absorption in the lungs is a little weaker than DMT, 10 s holding breath is not enough to absorb all the vapor.
Also the vapor is quite pleasant or at least not harsh, indicating that there is indeed no combustion in the ideal case (like seen as near-full evaporation in diagram).
Still, it was a little tedious to do a vaping for 20 min straight. Inhaling, holding breath, loading chamber with more, inhaling, [...] for 20 min straight is quite annoying. Even if the vapor is quite okay, it's pretty stupid I have to say ... :thumb_dow So that is where I already believe this is not a useful ROA.
Another problem is that while in theory the vaporization is pretty clean and without combustion, there is an inherent shortcoming when vaporizing HUGE LOADS of stuff. You might imagine a pretty high mountain of molecules, which all are above their vaporization temp (or let's say aerosol formation temp). Naturally, even the lowest ones would just fly off and vaporize in air. But because there are 1000000's of layers of other molecules warping around on their shoulders, the ones at the bottom simply cannot get up. Therefore they are forced to stay at the glas bottom and remain at > 170 °C for dozens of seconds. At this point the probability for combustion increases more and more and if held back from evaporation for too long, it's near safe that thermal degradation will happen. Therefore I had to change my Banger at halfway-through, as it was just terribly charred. Man that looks just disgusting lol :twisted: :twisted:
Still, I like when I can see how vaporized Alkaloids (or Salts in that manner) have condensed at the glass walls. Pretty close to the Banger/Bucket itself the glass tube also gets yellow due to partially-degraded molecules making their way through. Luckily all that stuff easily gets cleaned with hot DMSO.
Now after recording the weight before/after cleaning my banger I knew how much Mescaline Benzoate degraded before I could vape it, which was 38 mg. That means
I smoked (200 - 38 =) 162 mg Mescaline Benzoate
= 102 mg Freebase Mescaline
= 196 mg Mescaline Citrate
= 119 mg Mescaline Chloride
It was my first Mescaline experience ever, so I have actually no clue what to compare for
Anyways, it was roughly like that:
- Body felt quite weightless, like drifting through space
- Very warm feeling inside
- Body felt like melting on my sofa
- Visual sight was strongly altered, but NO CEV/OEV, still hard to describe how it was different
- Getting up from sofa and walking was not too easy, felt like having 3-4 beer
Overall effects would describe it like 15 mg 2C-B. Probably decent for a dose equivalent of 120 mg Mesc-HCl, which would be 1/4 of an average dose Mesc-HCl if I understand correctly.
Still missed some kind of morphing of homogeneous surfaces, like pillows / carpets, which would be quite distinctive for any psychedelic, also no true CEV/OEV.
Effect lasted 2 h to 2,5 h, roughly same like smoking 2C-B (although that stuff being X-times stronger at same duration).
Conclusion:
I think smoking this stuff is quite funny, but not too much more than that. The potency is okay to get a definetly moderate effect. Also the vapor is not harsh. But due to the sheer amount of material to be smoked it means you will inevitably still combust like 10-20 %. Then regarding aiming at psychedelic effects it means that going through a pretty annoying phase of vaping for MANY minutes in a row until you might reach the desired plateau, this is not what a relaxing onset of a trip would look like.
So in total was an adventurous journey, but after all I think there is no need to forcefully create this Mescaline Benzoate. Still, it shows the potential synergy of using Benzoic Acid with an Alkaloid to smoke stuff, that otherwise was overall regarded as non-smokable. But sticking to safer-use guidelines obviously remains the golden rule!!
So here is a TEK that can be used to convert Mescaline Citrate to Mescaline Benzoate, which is smokable. A little disclaimer: I dont think it's too much worth it, but I will just dump all the relevant information here, for the sake of documentation purpose.
Vaporization Theory
We all know that we can easily vaporize a huge load of freebase alkaloids. Most of them require temperatures of 150 - 200 °C. Many people (including myself) had the believe that these alkaloid molecules would simply detach as solitary molecules from a molten freebase-liquid into gas phase and then fly towards the lucky smoker, ultimately being absorbed in the lung and cause their effects. But here you have a nice explanation that this is not the case. The most meaningful arguments against this is that the vapor can actually be seen and it happens at a temperature which is far below the proposed boiling point, both indicating that not a true boiling process is happening, but instead an aerosol is formed. This aerosol can be formed way below the actual boiling point, so you more precisely just inhale tiny droplets, which form visible vapor due to light refraction.
As this seems to be the process while evaporation of freebase drugs, it seems that this can even be done with Alkaloid-Salts. The only requirement is that the acid used to create that salt is "compatible" with that aerosol formation. The biggest requirement is the ability to melt prior to ultimate Alkaloid degradation. For mineral acids that is not possible (DMT-Chloride, DMT-Sulfate, DMT-Phosphate, ...), but many organic acids indeed create DMT salts which melt before 200 °C. These actually can vaporize as they also form the same aerosol droplets, with an even bigger distance to the actual boiling point.
Now the big question is: Which acids are "compatible" and why? There is only empiric data and no validation on anything, but it seems that the acid needs to have the least possible amount of intermolecular interactions with itself and Mescaline, so naturally at best only low polarity / low electron-count groups. Secondly it seems beneficial if the acid is monovalent, meaning that 1x acid carries only 1x R-COOH group. Reason is that this also heavily increases interaction with itself, forming Dimers of R-COOH...HOOC-R. The last requirement is not really one, but it would be beneficial if the acid can form a crystalline salt, which rules out any alkane acid like Acetic Acid, which will always give a brown goo. If you create this, you dont have much beneficials over simply using the freebase as this will probably also degrade fast ...
Now here is the visualization of the given "rules". As you can see a divalent or trivalent acid like Fumaric Acid and Citric Acid are not that great for vaporization. They only vaporize partially and the rest gets combusted. The data does not tell if it is due to a chemical reaction of "reactive parts" of these acids or if vaporization simply is slowed down, so the chance of non-specific thermal degradation simply increases. In any way you can see that Benzoic Acid vaporizes cleanly to a very high %, only above 230 °C something happens, maybe some degradation starting, so evaporation should happen at ~ 160-190 °C.
Dont be fooled by the absolute values: They more give an idea if the compound will evaporate cleanly (the curve drops into very low values) or if strong pyrolysis happens (curve will stop at high values).
Regarding the ideal vaporization temperature, this is not where the curve hits low values, but where the curves actual start dropping. For Mescaline Benzoate it would mean 170 °C is just fine for full evaporation - if sufficient airflow is granted, taking away the aerosol droplets above the liquid layer, enabling formation of more droplets and so on.
How to get Mescaline Benzoate?
Trials to directly precipitate Mescaline Benzoate at the end of a potential CIELO variation failed. Solubility is very high, in contrast to DMT Benzoate, which for example easily precipitates from Toluene and Limonene. Even Limonene is still a too good solvent for Mescaline Benzoate and prevents crystal formation or maybe other molecules from the cactus that are also dissolved at the end increase solubility and prevent precipitation. The most promising route would be extract from totally dry Cacti Powder with hot Naphtha and add Benzoic Acid, but also this did not give great results so far ...
Therefore the only working way is to create it from pure isolated Mescaline salts. As smoking this is anyways not the ideal form of consumption, it would anyways not matter being forced making a conversion by hand just for fun ... As a sidenote step 2.1 of the TEK is not easy if you just perform it with small amounts like < 200 mg.
(1.1) Take 500 mg Mescaline Citrate (= 260 mg Mescaline Freebase) and mix with 300 mg Ca(OH)2 until homogeneously
(1.2) Add 2 ml water and mix again
(1.3) Evaporate until completely dry. After crushing it must fall around free flowing like the powder at step (1.1). You can use an oven at 50 °C with air ventilation on. You can track the weight and aim for reaching (500 + 300 (- 150 water) =) 650 mg powder.
(2.1) Place it in a filter paper (I used a lab glass filter) and NOTE TOTAL WEIGHT (optional, but recommended). Pour 10 x 5 ml Aceton on top of the filter, collect Aceton coming out.
(2.2) Dry the filter + remaining powder at 50 °C in your oven COMPLETELY. Check weight again, you must have removed ~ 260 mg (all the Mescaline Freebase). If not, use more Aceton. Possibly you will only reach like 95 % removal, dont worry. You will see the remaining powder turning from light-brown to totally white again (Ca(OH)2 + Ca-Citrate). Afterwards make sure you got no Ca(OH)2 traces in your Aceton. It is very fine, so some might have gone through paper filters.
(2.3) Evaporate all the Aceton. The brown liquid is Freebase Mescaline. Sadly it did not solidify in Freezer, but according to Literature it could be solid, but react with H2O + CO2 from air over time, forming Mescaline-Carbonate.
(3.1) Calculate the removed weight x 0,63 (Ratio of Mescaline to Benzoic Acid) and weigh that amount of Benzoic Acid. For 260 mg Freebase Mescaline it would be (260 x 0,63 =) 164 mg. You can also use 150 mg to make sure you 100 % will not have excess Benzoic Acid that you risk smoke later on. Dissolve both Freebase Mescaline and Benzoic Acid in 1 ml Toluene each (for Benzoic Acid might need heat).
(3.2) Combine both into 1 and put into Freezer. Strangly it will take over-night to precipitate.
(3.3) As we use so little Toluene, you cannot decant. Instead place into Filter and wash with Naphtha until white or faint-coloured. At this point only 206 mg from theoretical 424 mg were collected. You may evaporate the wash Toluene-Naphtha-Fraction separately to recover the rest. You can check if you really got Mescaline Benzoate by putting a small crystal in a tiny water droplet. It will dissolve, while Benzoic acid would not (and Freebase Mescaline would not be a solid).
Smoking Mescaline Benzoate
Smoking this stuff should only be done in a device that allows precise heat control. Loveall and DF0 have already pointed out that Benzoic Acid carries the risk of decarboxylation at high temperatures, which would create cangerogeneous Benzene. Dont use an open flame at random distances, the distance for over-heating by a few 100's °C might be pretty small.
I used my Spice Rotator dab rig, that has a tea light mounted on a certain distance, which is perfect for smoking DMT. That means it should be pretty constant around 170 °C, this value was used as the vaporization diagram (at start of post) is quite in accordance with that.
In order to potentially maximize the effect also 150 mg Harmin were eaten 1,5 h prior to smoking. Indeed it was mentioned across this site that the effect on cactus would be low. But in my feeling Harmalas anyways just extend a trip instead of potentiating. That is why probably long-lasting trips dont get any synergy, as they anyways last longer than the Harmalas itself. But when smoking a short-lasting trip might still get some effects I hoped.
Smoking 200 mg Mescaline Benzoate took ~ 20 min, so apparently 10 mg / 1 min can easily be smoked.
It was observable that the absorption in the lungs is a little weaker than DMT, 10 s holding breath is not enough to absorb all the vapor.
Also the vapor is quite pleasant or at least not harsh, indicating that there is indeed no combustion in the ideal case (like seen as near-full evaporation in diagram).
Still, it was a little tedious to do a vaping for 20 min straight. Inhaling, holding breath, loading chamber with more, inhaling, [...] for 20 min straight is quite annoying. Even if the vapor is quite okay, it's pretty stupid I have to say ... :thumb_dow So that is where I already believe this is not a useful ROA.
Another problem is that while in theory the vaporization is pretty clean and without combustion, there is an inherent shortcoming when vaporizing HUGE LOADS of stuff. You might imagine a pretty high mountain of molecules, which all are above their vaporization temp (or let's say aerosol formation temp). Naturally, even the lowest ones would just fly off and vaporize in air. But because there are 1000000's of layers of other molecules warping around on their shoulders, the ones at the bottom simply cannot get up. Therefore they are forced to stay at the glas bottom and remain at > 170 °C for dozens of seconds. At this point the probability for combustion increases more and more and if held back from evaporation for too long, it's near safe that thermal degradation will happen. Therefore I had to change my Banger at halfway-through, as it was just terribly charred. Man that looks just disgusting lol :twisted: :twisted:
Still, I like when I can see how vaporized Alkaloids (or Salts in that manner) have condensed at the glass walls. Pretty close to the Banger/Bucket itself the glass tube also gets yellow due to partially-degraded molecules making their way through. Luckily all that stuff easily gets cleaned with hot DMSO.
Now after recording the weight before/after cleaning my banger I knew how much Mescaline Benzoate degraded before I could vape it, which was 38 mg. That means
I smoked (200 - 38 =) 162 mg Mescaline Benzoate
= 102 mg Freebase Mescaline
= 196 mg Mescaline Citrate
= 119 mg Mescaline Chloride
It was my first Mescaline experience ever, so I have actually no clue what to compare for
Anyways, it was roughly like that:- Body felt quite weightless, like drifting through space
- Very warm feeling inside
- Body felt like melting on my sofa
- Visual sight was strongly altered, but NO CEV/OEV, still hard to describe how it was different
- Getting up from sofa and walking was not too easy, felt like having 3-4 beer
Overall effects would describe it like 15 mg 2C-B. Probably decent for a dose equivalent of 120 mg Mesc-HCl, which would be 1/4 of an average dose Mesc-HCl if I understand correctly.
Still missed some kind of morphing of homogeneous surfaces, like pillows / carpets, which would be quite distinctive for any psychedelic, also no true CEV/OEV.
Effect lasted 2 h to 2,5 h, roughly same like smoking 2C-B (although that stuff being X-times stronger at same duration).
Conclusion:
I think smoking this stuff is quite funny, but not too much more than that. The potency is okay to get a definetly moderate effect. Also the vapor is not harsh. But due to the sheer amount of material to be smoked it means you will inevitably still combust like 10-20 %. Then regarding aiming at psychedelic effects it means that going through a pretty annoying phase of vaping for MANY minutes in a row until you might reach the desired plateau, this is not what a relaxing onset of a trip would look like.
So in total was an adventurous journey, but after all I think there is no need to forcefully create this Mescaline Benzoate. Still, it shows the potential synergy of using Benzoic Acid with an Alkaloid to smoke stuff, that otherwise was overall regarded as non-smokable. But sticking to safer-use guidelines obviously remains the golden rule!!
