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Tetrahydroharmine reduction & extraction success
- Thread starter tregar
- Start date
GoldenEye
Rising Star
Hi Tregar, I live in the Netherlands so I guess I could get it lab analysed through one of our test centres. I can't PM you though as I am a new member. Let me find out if they will test suspected THH samples or not. They are open on thursdays only so I'll get back to you next week. Only downside is that they give any results by phone only so I will have no proof of their findings. They do so deliberately because they are only testing for individual consumers, not manufacturers or dealers. This is also why it is a free service available only to Dutch citizens. So if I come back and claim that it is for instance 96% pure THH you guys will just have to take my word for it...
GoldenEye
Rising Star
Never mind, I just read on their website that they don't test legal substances. But on the other hand, when I came in with some of the strongest acid blotter they had seen in two years time they nearly begged me to bring in rare psychoactive research chemicals because they were interested in those. They provide statistics to the government about drug use and drug quality in the Netherlands but they almost never see anything but XTC come around for testing. They were genuinely excited when I brought in blotter. Stupid question of them to ask me for research chemicals to analyze though... Who needs research chemicals when you can get the best acid they had seen in ages haha! But most of these research chemicals they liked to analyze would also be legal...So maybe it is worth a phone call just to see if they are interested in analyzing THH..?
tregar
Rising Star
In the past, have taken THH with harmine, and closed my eyes, and some 40 minutes later saw visions just like those of Real Ayahausca, only without the psychotria, the visions are weak, and in weak monochrome green color on a black background, sort of like seeing the reflections of objects on a turned off TV set, they were still super high resolution, only weakly lit, perhaps as the Shaman's say, the vine is the real important part of Ayahuasca, while the DMT provides the light or brightness to help everthing along, though I think it does alot more than that. Even if you read posts by Rue and Leprechaun from the old Aya archives at mycotopia, you will discover that with vine only journeys, they too saw a long lasting sequence of visions, but you have to be careful when you are using these higher doses of caapi only or harmine/thh only, as nausea is a real possibility and you may not be able to stand up or move around much with really high doses of harmine.
Auxin
Esteemed member
I think ascorbic acid is being underestimated simply because the word 'mild' is being tossed around.
Ascorbic acid is used to reduce metal salts such as those of silver, copper, and iron to their metallic form. [Example]
Ascorbic acid or lemon juice is also used to reduce indigo to indigo white, a process that reduces a carbon-carbon double bond by the addition of two hydrogens (sound familiar?).
Its known that ascorbic acids reducing power is increased by increasing pH, with it being more reducing at pH 4 or more than pH 3 or less. If reduction of harmaline hydrochloride by ascorbic acid in plain water is poor or incomplete, one could conceivably alter the procedure by buffering the ascorbic acid with some sodium acetate.
Ascorbic acid is used to reduce metal salts such as those of silver, copper, and iron to their metallic form. [Example]
Ascorbic acid or lemon juice is also used to reduce indigo to indigo white, a process that reduces a carbon-carbon double bond by the addition of two hydrogens (sound familiar?).
Its known that ascorbic acids reducing power is increased by increasing pH, with it being more reducing at pH 4 or more than pH 3 or less. If reduction of harmaline hydrochloride by ascorbic acid in plain water is poor or incomplete, one could conceivably alter the procedure by buffering the ascorbic acid with some sodium acetate.
tregar
Rising Star
Callaway, Entheogen Review:
by McKenna DJ, Callaway JC, Grob CS:
hxxps://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ayahuasca/ayahuasca_journal3.shtml
5-ht1a receptors make up over 80% of the brain's 5-ht receptors, oral LSD, mescaline, and mushrooms all target the 5-ht1a subgroup, this causes up to 90% "shutting down of serotonin signalling". One of the actions of THH is that it is a fast acting SSRI, and SSRI's target the 5-ht1a brain receptors, DMT on it's own has been shown to not target the 5-ht1a receptors, but when taken with THH, you now have this broad receptor target activity. Shutting down of serotonin signals in the brain appears to be an important activity of all the oral potent visual natural psychedelics:
Dr. Charles Nichols:
hxxp://www.heffter.org/docs/hrireview/02/chap5.pdf
Dr. Shulgin, TIHKAL:
www.plosone.org
hxxp://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0009019
The Scientific Investigation of Ayahuasca, A Review of Past and Current Research
by McKenna DJ, Callaway JC, Grob CS:
Erowid Ayahuasca Vault : Scientific Investigation of Ayahuasca, McKenna, Callaway, Grob 1998
A journal article overview of science done on ayahausca
www.erowid.org
5-ht1a receptors make up over 80% of the brain's 5-ht receptors, oral LSD, mescaline, and mushrooms all target the 5-ht1a subgroup, this causes up to 90% "shutting down of serotonin signalling". One of the actions of THH is that it is a fast acting SSRI, and SSRI's target the 5-ht1a brain receptors, DMT on it's own has been shown to not target the 5-ht1a receptors, but when taken with THH, you now have this broad receptor target activity. Shutting down of serotonin signals in the brain appears to be an important activity of all the oral potent visual natural psychedelics:
Dr. Charles Nichols:
hxxp://www.heffter.org/docs/hrireview/02/chap5.pdf
Dr. Shulgin, TIHKAL:
James Kent, Psychedelic Information Theory:
Thomas S. Ray, Psychedelics and the Human Receptorome (2010):
Psychedelics and the Human Receptorome
We currently understand the mental effects of psychedelics to be caused by agonism or partial agonism of 5-HT2A (and possibly 5-HT2C) receptors, and we understand that psychedelic drugs, especially phenylalkylamines, are fairly selective for these two receptors. This manuscript is a reference...
GoldenEye
Rising Star
I think it's funny that I have no experience with any maoi or harmala alkaloid but I have always had a strong intuitive feeling that rue was missing something. Probably from reading experience reports. I also feel, now that I have 4 smoked DMT (changa) experiences under my belt that DMT only is interesting but too far out there and too alien to be psychologically relevant. It is more philosophical than psychological I think. I bet when it is used merely to give light to otherwise dark THH visions it loses this alien quality and can help the THH work it's magic. I feel like DMT on it's own, although mightily fascinating, is too abstract and too alien to be of much psychological value. In the past I have compared mushrooms and meditative spiritual practices by saying that while meditation whispers well articulated truths about you in your ears, mushrooms shout the same truths at you but masked in simple riddles. DMT in my limited experience then shrieks at you telepathically some rather insolvable riddles... (and LSD just makes the whole universe conspire to point out to you how obvious this truth is) In this analogy, would you say THH whispers this truth and previews what it feels like to implement it? Because that is the feeling I get by reading what I have read...
Intezam
Rising Star
We have two questions:
1.)What is the difference between racemic THH and non-racemic THH?
and
2.) Somebody mentioned that magnesium (ribbon) can be used as a reducing agent to reduce harmaline to THH but he/she did not elaborate on that. Is that possible? Somebody else said it wouldn't work since magnesium hydroxide isn't amphoteric..?
Dūraoša teach(es) us how to obtain Jam-e Jam from it (rue)... (it/if/they/them already did that, but *then we would not grasp it....due to our gross mindset limitations or lack of it error)
1.)What is the difference between racemic THH and non-racemic THH?
(How could or would that affect a melting point analysis accuracy at all??)wikipedia said:
and
2.) Somebody mentioned that magnesium (ribbon) can be used as a reducing agent to reduce harmaline to THH but he/she did not elaborate on that. Is that possible? Somebody else said it wouldn't work since magnesium hydroxide isn't amphoteric..?
..with all due respect.....please no....not like this. Dūraoša rockz! missing=misnomer misunderstood=eludium aboundanceGoldenEye said:
Dūraoša teach(es) us how to obtain Jam-e Jam from it (rue)... (it/if/they/them already did that, but *then we would not grasp it....due to our gross mindset limitations or lack of it error)
tregar
Rising Star
Well thought out GoldenEye, yes, I agree, even reading reports about rue + psychotria only, you get the sense that something is amiss, as far as "the truth", about all I can really say at this point is that THH when combined with harmine and a dash of harmaline with a small brew of psychotria simulate the Real Ayahuasca, which is like entering into a School just like Benny Shanon describes it in his 500 page book "Antipodes of the Mind", who has taken Ayahuasca over 165 times by now. As a Shaman once told him "at first Ayahuasca shows you this world, then later it shows you other worlds."
Auxin
Esteemed member
The reduction would probably work just fine. The difficulty with magnesium would be in the work-up. That is, separating the magnesium salts from the target alkaloid. If you just added carbonate or hydroxide the alkaloid would be mixed with tons of inert fluff that would hinder isolation and more base or ammonium chloride wouldnt resolve the situation. But that just means one might have to find a different trick to use.Intezam said:
GoldenEye
Rising Star
Cool! I just saw that my caapi extract has been delivered while I was playing basketball today. My neighbors are holding the package for me. Can't wait to pick it up tomorrow and to finally get to meet the vine myself!!
(It's a viscous liquid actually, not an extract. So it is a brew with 1kg Caapi in every 100ml of liquid. I hope it is brewed right, next time I will most likely order the plant material itself.)
(It's a viscous liquid actually, not an extract. So it is a brew with 1kg Caapi in every 100ml of liquid. I hope it is brewed right, next time I will most likely order the plant material itself.)
Suppose it was mainly heat that made the long boiled aya brews high in THH, could heat also work in favor of the reduction process here? I know heat and H2 are a tad daring to combine, but let forget that for a sec. Heat promotes reactions in common, and it expels oxygen out of the solution (hence less oxidation, more reduction???)
Forgive my non chemist brain dabbing if I miss the ball by a mile here :roll:
(if the removing of oxygen has any merits, a pre-boil + cool down before the reduction eliminates the heat+H2 issue)
Forgive my non chemist brain dabbing if I miss the ball by a mile here :roll:
(if the removing of oxygen has any merits, a pre-boil + cool down before the reduction eliminates the heat+H2 issue)
Auxin
Esteemed member
Heat itself is not a reducing agent, it just speeds up reactions or allows energetically needy reactions to begin. If the long boiled aya truly did form THH from harmaline while boiling a reducing agent must have been involved.
The first suspect would be the aluminum pot, aluminum is a reducing agent. When you cook up a pot of tomatoes into paste you can weigh the pot before and after and see that a portion of aluminum metal vanished, it can be found as aluminum salts in your tomato paste. Same thing must happen with aya. This begs an interesting question, if aluminum pots are altering the entheogenic nature of aya, what was aya like before aluminum pots were traded throughout the amazon? What did they even boil aya in before metal? Imported earthenware vessels from other tribes?
If not the aluminum, then the reducing agent must be added via the herbal materials or the water. Fresh Psychotria leaves have vitamin C. Banisteriopsis has tannins that can act as reducing agents. Both have other polyphenols. (Peganum harmala seeds have far less (if any) of all of these compounds, AFAIK)
One of these days I should dust off my beakers and reflux harmaline with gallic acid for 12 hours to test the tannin hypothesis.
The first suspect would be the aluminum pot, aluminum is a reducing agent. When you cook up a pot of tomatoes into paste you can weigh the pot before and after and see that a portion of aluminum metal vanished, it can be found as aluminum salts in your tomato paste. Same thing must happen with aya. This begs an interesting question, if aluminum pots are altering the entheogenic nature of aya, what was aya like before aluminum pots were traded throughout the amazon? What did they even boil aya in before metal? Imported earthenware vessels from other tribes?
If not the aluminum, then the reducing agent must be added via the herbal materials or the water. Fresh Psychotria leaves have vitamin C. Banisteriopsis has tannins that can act as reducing agents. Both have other polyphenols. (Peganum harmala seeds have far less (if any) of all of these compounds, AFAIK)
One of these days I should dust off my beakers and reflux harmaline with gallic acid for 12 hours to test the tannin hypothesis.
Intezam
Rising Star
Auxin said:
Funny how we was thinking about the same thing yesterday noon. Here. They probably made their own clay vessels and yucca griddles from local clay. Do you remember these documentaries where parrots and other animals supplement themselves with rare earth and minerals (to guard themselves from plant poisons and tannins)? The local tribes/shamans would sure not remain aloof of such a gathering and know of similar sites..... + the reducing agent(s) might also be in the water?
Also, it made us think about the presence of THH in Caapi in the first place. And why has red caapi the highest THH content? Could it be, that there are also strains of rue that grow on remnants of the Cimmerian plate (where oxisol soils are found) that have a higher THH content (not necessarily in the seed)? This gives us fond thoughts about the former sacredness of red ochre as well as the ants people....
tregar
Rising Star
Trips (from the forum here on 12/2/2011):
On my journey with THH & harmine powder combined with fresh psychotria brew, still reflect back on the spinning neon colored geometrics, riding inside the aqua blue swirling tunnel till I was dropped off on a distant island, then being shown high res snapshots of the island Tee-kees with intricate carvings, the beautiful island women, carnivals, animals, many people, Ayahuasca Visions are the best, and music sounds really great with all 3 chemicals, Heavenly.
Trips was one of the others besides Phytonaut who had sucess making his/her own THH. I completely agree with Trips, I indeed find just harmine and dmt to be like mushrooms, but when you add in THH, the trip is similar to LSD to me...you get Real Ayahuasca style Visions with the added THH, and you get the extra bonus of enhanced energy and clarity.
On my journey with THH & harmine powder combined with fresh psychotria brew, still reflect back on the spinning neon colored geometrics, riding inside the aqua blue swirling tunnel till I was dropped off on a distant island, then being shown high res snapshots of the island Tee-kees with intricate carvings, the beautiful island women, carnivals, animals, many people, Ayahuasca Visions are the best, and music sounds really great with all 3 chemicals, Heavenly.
tregar
Rising Star
All 3 chemicals when taken together simulate the Real Ayahuasca found in nature, one of the most important functions of Ayahuasca is that it "reveals the Divine and Sacred", this is also recounted by Shanon in his book, and this Sacred experience is one that I also hold high, whether it be from Ayahuasca, Mescaline, or LSD (semi-synthetic), all Nature derived.
Albert Hofmann, pg 6 of "Hofmann's Elixir, LSD and the new Eleusis edited by Amanda Feilding"
Albert Hofmann, pg 6 of "Hofmann's Elixir, LSD and the new Eleusis edited by Amanda Feilding"
People all sitting around (UDV members) on lawn chairs drinking Ayahuasca outside in a Religious Setting in Nature Together for healing and learning, sound like a "New Eleusis" like Dr. Hoffman envisioned? Sound Familiar?