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Tetrahydroharmine reduction & extraction success

Take a look at Professor 8's THH (which he made by simply boiling harmaline in a strong filtered Vitamin C solution). That's his harmine shown below.
 
tregar said:
...his harmine fb on the very bottom photo (which is brown just like my harmine fb)...
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Ime, purified harmine should be more like the tan or grey products pictured (or slightly darker than "offwhite"), not brown.

Also, using color alone is problematic when making claims about the identity of a given compound.
 
..does your magnetic stirrer have a hotplate? Would the zinc/thh separation also work wiith 99% isopropanol? Ethanol is crazy expensive in our Børg domain due to heavy taxation....if not, it would explain this sort of fee + some harmaline loss:

please note: this is a historical screenshot we took in August,
to document the texture/colour - it ain't there this time around
(..save your time 😉 )
 
Also, when you add THH to an oral brew of harmine powder and psychotria, you will notice that the frequency with which your body "vibrates" will be much, much higher, just as Professor 8 stated, the vibrational energy (I keep thinking of Tesla here, heh) will be quite high, as it shifts you from the mushroom vibrational field to the near LSD type field. It is a much more euphoric & energized & much more colorful state with the THH, no longer the kinda scary experience (to me anyways) of harmine + psychotria only.
 
Tregar, thank you for posting your thoughts and experiments on this :)

I just want to write that, while that one experiment I've shown did result in basically a complete conversion, I have also done other experiments following a similar method that were only partial conversions. There are different kind of variables there, for example, what amount of zinc, what amount of acetic acid, what amount of harmalas, how long was it reacting, was there mixing involved and if so how much, etc. These things I did not measure so carefuly in the experiments because I just wanted to look for 'proof of principle'. Def something to research more in the future.

So I wouldnt already assume you have 100% product... It might be, or it might be less.. which obviously doesnt mean your experience is less valid and that you shouldnt be happy wiht your product, but I just think its important to be careful with assumptions.

Anyways, enjoy, and keep sharing your experiences and thoughts :)
 
Thanks Endlessness, very much appreciated, and once again, so good to hear from you.

*** Also, if you see my receptor activity post earlier in the thread, you will see dmt has very potent 5-ht2c activity, far exceeding mushrooms, this 5-ht2c visual agonism is matched by the 5-ht2a visual agonism of LSD, and both 5-ht2a and 5-ht2c were shown by Dr. Nichols in the 5-ht paper linked to earlier to have virtually identical mapping in the brain, and both cause intense visual activity to pursue.
 
Hey Treggar

I like the fact you have an expansive mind and are doing hands-on experiments, trying to find connections between different things, trying to further the knowledge :) . I' ll get back to you on the specific THH experiments at some point when I have time again to start experimenting, would be good to get some dialogue going so we can take these experiments further and also analyse them .

But I' d like to ask you to be a bit more mindful about some of the claims you are making.. If you say things like, the cortisol levels are increased by THH, you need to cite some source for that, otherwise its better to explicitly say its your own personal speculation. Same with the natural supplement you claimed to have some or other effect, or the mention about ' serotonin blocking' of THH and so on.

Lastly, regarding your visual comparison of THH and LSD, that is not a very good reasoning to compare pharmacological action of molecules... Case in point: Isomers. Different isomers of certain psychoactive substances (e.g. LSD vs ISO-LSD) will have the exact same molecular weight and yet completely different pharmacological actions. Pharmacology is more complex than we suppose sometimes... I feel like I barely know any of the basics of it, but it' s certainly very interesting subject and great to be brought up. Whether one's ideas are flawless from the get go is not so important, because others with more knowledge can always post their thoughts and refine the ideas... The most important is that facts are referenced and the speculations are clearly labelled as such, and in those cases that the reasoning is explained so that others can scrutinize and collaboratively improve the community' s knowledge :)
 
Thank you for posting these sources.

Just to clarify, this isnt about doubting you or implying you are lying or something, but posting references for pharmacological claims is very important for the sake of further research, so that people who want to use that information in other contexts know where to reference it from, and also so that others can follow up on it, read the papers themselves, review methodology, find their own conclusions which can be added, etc etc..

Be well! :)
 
I do believe like Dr. Shulgin that more additional studies done on THH are imperative, it is the most misunderstood and understudied substance in the entheogenic world imho. It has strong "anti-serotonin" properties just like LSD and mescaline, see my citations above from Dr. Nichols.

Also, last comment, do not go by what the "person" in TIHKAL stated about 300mg of THH being like harmaline, that person could not tell the two apart, plus even shulgin mentioned that person had never even really probably tried harmaline, what a blatant error in TIHKAL. The two compounds are complete opposites. Here, don't take my word for it, just listen to what TRIPS has to say about it:

Trips (from this forum here on 12/2/2011):
As to how the THH altered the experience -> I find rue extract+DMT to be very similar to mushrooms I found the THH added to the rue+DMT to shift the experience to a state much closer to that provided by LSD. It was more clear, more energetic, more focused, and when confusion struck it was definitely more "acid-like".
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In conclusion, below are a few quotes from Benny shanon, "Antipodes of the mind" & Graham Hancock "Supernatural" on the Ayahuasca Experience, which I've found in my experience is simulated when using similar average ratio's of THH, harmine, dmt, and a dash of harmaline if you want. These quotes are given for educational and conversational purposes only. Mckenna found in the brews he sampled an average ratio of 3:2 of harmine to THH, example would be 150mg of harmine to 100mg of THH, or 1:1 ratio ie 150mg of harmine to 150mg of THH, some variety of Caapi (esp prized by some Shamans) contain a ratio of harmine to THH that is exactly that ie 1:1, example would be 160mg of harmine to 160mg of THH. The sedating harmaline is typically found in from 10 to 40mg in the brew, see above Mckenna reference for a list of these doses found in the samples he analyzed for the UDV.

Graham Hancock, "Supernatural", pg 428:
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My experience with smoked DMT was qualitatively different from the realms and beings ayahuasca introduced me to. For whereas the ayahuasca worlds seemed rich, luxurious, and abundant in the transformations of organic and supernatural life, DMT brought me to a world--or to some aspect of a world--that appeared from the outset to be highly artificial, constructed, inorganic, and in essence technological.

Graham Hancock, "Supernatural", pg 50
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On another night the ayahuasca visions begin very differently, After an initial bout of geometry and ladders I find myself inside a building--a huge structure a bit like the ancient Egyptian temple of Edfu at its entrance but opening out into something quite other. Fantastic architecture on an extraordinary scale. I have a computercam point of view and can fly around, zoom in or zoom out anywhere. I fly up into a vast dome, examine the patterns of nested curves that decorate its ceiling.

Graham Hancock, "Supernatural", pg 56
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27 January: The visions begin with 20 minutes of geometry; then suddenly I find myself looking, at very close range, into a shockingly "alien" face, grey in colour, with a wide domed forehead and a narrow pointed chin--heart-shaped like the faces of the "light-beings" I'd encountered a few days earlier. It's eyes are multi-segmented like those of a fly. Frankly, it's the sort of image you'd expect to see adorning some far fetched X-files expose, and since aliens and ETs have never been interests of mine, I'm really puzzled to experience such a hallucination.

A short while later, out of a background of shifting geometrical patterns, a beautiful Egyptian goddess appears, I see only her head and headdress clearly. She's in full regalia. Then she vanishes as abruptly and mysteriously as she arrived.

Graham Hancock, "Supernatural", pg 64
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The Udv session runs from 9pm until about 1:20am. I drink my brew at 9:20 pm and am having good visions by 9:45. The first hour after drinking --until 10:20--passes in what feels, subjectively, like an instant.

My visions are familiar and positive--perhaps more brightly lit, less "darkness visible" than before. What I remember clearly are large snakes (again!), light-coloured boas, huge, coiling around each other and around branches. I also get pyramid shapes built around a lattice or framework of some kind.

But the best part of the evening is when the same Egyptian goddess whom I saw in Peru reappears--this time on the left side of my visual field. At first she is concealed, in shadow. I look closely and see a slender female figure holding a dark blue mask in front of her face--one of those masks on a stick. Then she removes the mask and I see her face clearly in the instant before she vanishes once more. She glows the colour of molten gold.

Kusel "Antipodes of the mind", pg 18:
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The first visual experience was like fireworks. Then a continuously creating power produced a wealth of simple and elaborate flat patterns in colour. There were patterns that consisted of twining repeats, and others geometrically organized with rectangles or squares that were like Maya designs or those decorations which the Chama Indians paint on their thin, ringing pottery.

The visions were in constant flux. First, intermittently, then successively, the flat patterns gave way to deep-brown, purple or green depths, like dimly lighted caves in which the walls were too far away to be perceived.

At times snake-like stems of plants were growing profusely in the depths, at others these were covered with arrangements of myriads or lights that like dewdrops or gems adorned them. Now and then brilliant light illuminated the scene as though by photographic flash, showing wide landscapes with trees placed at regular intervals or just empty plains. A big ship with many flags appeared in one of these flashes, a merry-go-round with people dressed in highly coloured garments in another.

When I opened my eyes, I saw the dark walls of the jungle covered with jewels as if a net of lights had been thrown over it. Upon closing my eyes again, I could renew the procession of slick, well-lighted images.

The color scheme became a harmony of dark brown and greens. Naked dancers appeared turning slowly in spiral movements. Spots of brassy lights played on their bodies which gave them the texture of polished stones. Their faces were inclined and hidden in deep shadows.

Their coming into existence in the centre of the vision coincided with the rhythm of the song, and they advanced forward to the sides, turning slowly. I longed to see their faces. At last the whole field of vision was taken up by a single dancer with inclined face covered by a raised arm. As my desire to see the face became unendurable, it appeared suddenly in full close-up with closed eyes. I know that when the extraordinary face opened then, I experienced a satisfaction of a kind I had never known. It was the visual solution of a personal riddle.
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Shanon:
Often, the things I saw under the intoxication impressed me as being so real that the conclusion seemed to be unavoidable: truly existing other realities are being revealed. Believing that this is the case is very common with drinkers of Ayahuasca. Both during the course of the intoxication and afterwards the question repeatedly forces itself: Does this really exist? Over and over again I have heard people express the same feelings of puzzlement and intrigue: Where do all the wondrous things revealed in the visions come from? What do they mean? The things seen with Ayahuasca often strike people as so different from anything they have seen or known that they cannot be the products of their own intellect. Universally, drinkers of Ayahuasca feel that these things are too fantastic to be merely the products of the imaginative power of their own mind. If a supernatural realm, the term usually employed is "the astral" exists in any sense, many further questions ensue. What is the relationship between this realm and the physical world? What is the relationship between it and the human mind, between it and the brain? Does the supernatural or transpersonal consist of only one realm or many?

Many Ayahuasca visions lead one to an appreciation of the Divine and of the sacred dimension of being. A Shaman told me that "at first Ayahuasca shows you this world, then later on it shows you other worlds."

Especially impressive are visions that may be likened to visits to galleries or museums. As already mentioned in the previous chapter, once I found myself shown an exhibition displaying the works of an entire cuulture. Various works of art and artefacts were displayed. They were all of a style that resembled nothing that I had ever seen before in my life. What was striking was that the different objects on display all defined one coherent style. Similar visions were reported to me by several other persons.

One of my most experienced informants told me that some of the most impressive Ayahuasca sessions he has had involved his being transferred to other realms which apparently pertained to a different dimension. In these realms, the laws of physics were different from those that hold true here in this world. He encountered there beings totally different from those inhabiting planet Earth. They were flat and they proposed that he stay with them and learn the mysteries of the universe. The requirement was, however, that he lose his materiality. My friend declined and opted to return to this world. The vision with the mathematical formulae reported by a South American man and mentioned in the previous chapter is another example of a vision whose theme was the mysteries of the universe.

An effect that borders between the sensory and the interpretative is that of beautification. With Ayahuasca, music sounds immensely beautiful. One's perception of minute aspects of the music is heightened and it often sounds--literally--heavenly.
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tregar said:
...the Ayahuasca Experience...is perfectly simulated when using the correct ratio's of THH, harmine, dmt, and a dash of harmaline if you want.
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The thing is, this claim is a bit much, as even from one pot of ayahuasca to the next, the ratio of harmine, harmaline, thh is incredibly variable.

So, is ayahuasca that only contains harmine not "real ayahuasca"? What about ayahuasca that contains harmine and harmaline? What about ayahuascas that contain entirely different ratios of all three? Which one is the "real ayahuasca," as you keep putting it? In case it was not apparent, these are rhetorical questions.

The point that I'm driving at is that ayahuasca is not a standardized thing, not by a long shot. So making the kinds of claims that you seem to be making about the role of thh and "the correct ratios" of harmala alkaloids doesn't seem to fit the reality of the phytochemical variability that has been observed in these brews.
 
From 2010 the human receptor data report, note how dmt has 0% effect on the 5-ht1a receptor, the 5-ht1a receptors make up over 80% of the brain's 5-ht receptors according to Dr. Nichols....however, when you take THH, which is a very strong 5-ht1a agonist, you "shut down" serotonin signaling which is an important effect of all the natural oral psychedelics like LSD, mescaline and psilocin.

So theoretically, when you add in THH, you then get this very broad spectrum of receptor target activity in the brain, also note how DMT targets the 5-ht2c receptor with great strength, Dr. Nichols also showed that 5-ht2c and 5-ht2a mapping in the brain is virtually identical, so that when dmt does target it, you get incredible visual activity, note the slightly weaker activity of psilocin for the 5-htc receptor in comparison.

Breadth of Receptor Binding, 4.00=max, 0.00=min

LSD: 5ht1a = 3.73, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 2.88, mescaline = 3.61
LSD: 5ht1b = 4.00, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 2.19, mescaline = 0.00
LSD: 5ht1d = 3.70, DMT: = 3.91, psilocin = 3.40, mescaline = 0.00
LSD: 5ht1e = 2.62, DMT: = 3.28, psilocin = 3.03, mescaline = 3.16
LSD: 5ht2a = 3.54, DMT: = 2.58, psilocin = 2.14, mescaline = 0.00
LSD: 5ht2b = 3.11, DMT: = 3.91, psilocin = 4.00, mescaline = 3.97
LSD: 5ht2c = 3.11, DMT: = 3.42, psilocin = 2.52, mescaline = 0.00
LSD: 5ht5a = 3.64, DMT: = 3.16, psilocin = 2.83, mescaline = 0.00
LSD: -5ht6 = 3.75, DMT: = 3.35, psilocin = 2.82, mescaline = 0.00
LSD: -5ht7 = 3.77, DMT: = 4.00, psilocin = 2.82, mescaline = 0.00
LSD: ---D1 = 2.34, DMT: = 3.51, psilocin = 3.37, mescaline = 0.00
LSD: -A-2A = 2.93, DMT: = 2.75, psilocin = 1.36, mescaline = 2.92
LSD: -A-2B = 0.00, DMT: = 3.53, psilocin = 1.57, mescaline = 0.00
LSD: -A-2C = 0.00, DMT: = 3.53, psilocin = 1.03, mescaline = 4.00
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That doesn't address any of the issues I raised...

SnozzleBerry said:
tregar said:
...the Ayahuasca Experience...is perfectly simulated when using the correct ratio's of THH, harmine, dmt, and a dash of harmaline if you want.
Click to expand...
The thing is, this claim is a bit much, as even from one pot of ayahuasca to the next, the ratio of harmine, harmaline, thh is incredibly variable.

So, is ayahuasca that only contains harmine not "real ayahuasca"? What about ayahuasca that contains harmine and harmaline? What about ayahuascas that contain entirely different ratios of all three? Which one is the "real ayahuasca," as you keep putting it? In case it was not apparent, these are rhetorical questions.

The point that I'm driving at is that ayahuasca is not a standardized thing, not by a long shot. So making the kinds of claims that you seem to be making about the role of thh and "the correct ratios" of harmala alkaloids doesn't seem to fit the reality of the phytochemical variability that has been observed in these brews.
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Average Ayahuasca dose amounts of each chemical can be found here in Mckenna and Callaway's study on sample UDV brew:

hxxp://www.heffter.org/docs/hrireview/01/chapter10.pdf

Jonathan Ott in the book "Pharmacotheon" on page 250 in the Ayahuasca section showed that you can take 120mg to 160mg of harmine freebase to activate 35mg of dmt, everyone's body is a little different so you need to find if 120mg will work, or if you need more like 160mg or so, 120mg of harmine fb works for me with 250mg of THH, without getting any nausea, but I still have to go to the bathroom everytime I take it. This is the dosage range I prefer in my subjective experience of a simulated Ayahuasca ie 120mg of harmine + 250mg of THH + psychotria brew. I use more THH in my preparation because I like the effects of it, it shifts it more into the LSD realm, yet the visions are still way better than LSD. However, unlike LSD, Ayahuasca does not cause perceptual distortions of objects (even Shanon comments on this), no twisting, shrinking/expanding of objects like on LSD. Instead, Ayahuasca reveals a new hidden world or reality, LSD does this as well, but also can cause perceptual distortions.
 
tregar said:
Average Ayahuasca dose amounts of each chemical can be found here in Mckenna and Callaway's study on sample UDV brew
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This is a rather misleading claim to make. If you read relevant section of that paper, you will see that 1) very few samples were used, and 2) As they looked at samples coming from different groups/regions, the variability increased significantly.

Thus, making claims about "true ayahuasca" and "correct ratios" still seems unwarranted.

The concentrations of alkaloids in the ayahuasca beverages are, not surprisingly, several times greater than in the source plants from which they are prepared. Based on a quantitative analysis of the major alkaloids in several samples of ayahuasca collected on the upper Rio Purús, Rivier & Lindgren (1972) calculated that a 200 ml dose of ayahuasca contained an average of 30 mg of harmine, 10 mg tetrahydroharmine, and 25 mg DMT. Callaway, et al., determined the following concentrations of alkaloids in the hoasca tea utilized in the biomedical study with the UDV (mg/ml): DMT, 0.24; THH, 1.07; harmaline, 0.20; and harmine 1.70. A typical 100 ml dose of hoasca thus contains in mg: DMT, 24; THH, 107; harmaline, 20; harmine, 170. Interestingly, these concentrations are above the threshold of activity for i.v. administration of DMT (Strassman & Qualls, 1994).

McKenna et al. (1984) reported somewhat higher values for the alkaloid content of several samples of Peruvian ayahausca. These investigators calculated that a 100 ml dose of these preparations contained a total of 728 mg total alkaloid, of which 467 mg is harmine, 160 mg is tetrahydroharmine, 41 mg is harmaline, and 60 mg is DMT. This is well within the range of activity for DMT administered i.m. (Szara, 1956) or i.v. (Strassman & Qualls, 1994) and is also well within the range for harmine to act effectively as a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI).
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All I'm pointing out is that your treatment of ayahuasca as a standardized brew with "correct ratios" doesn't match the phytochemical evidence or reported bioassays.

I appreciate you taking the time to do all of this work and report on your findings, it's really appreciated. I'm not trying to discourage the exploration, just encourage being careful when talking about findings or speculation. As I said before, I just think it's very important to be careful with making claims and generalizations.
 
I can reliably produce the effects described earlier of ayahuasca, with rue and mimosa teas...and yes I also have a lot of experience with ayahuasca...

so I don't know how much I can deduce from any of the claims of such a drastic difference in effect.
 
SnozzleBerry, you are right, there is no correct ratio of ingredients in Ayahuasca, I will keep up the work, thanks!
Jamie, I'm glad rue and mimosa worked for you.
 
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