The case against Elves

[970Codfert]

I agree that it is foolish to take a psychedelic drug and pray to yourself "Oh psychedelic, please show me.... [anything]." or any other predisposition that might be suggestive and cloud the information received. I understand that when under the influence of psychedelics the power of suggestion is overwhelming. By over-eagerly seeking spiritual growth or ego dissolution you will get just that... whether its real or not, if that's what you want bad enough, you can convince yourself that its real. I understand this aspect of the experience.

How can the experience in hyperspace of any kind be imagined, if information can be brought back that is accurate and cannot be explained by normal perception? This alone is ground to build a case that the experience is real. If you look at the experience from a holographic viewpoint, this makes perfect sense. Quantum interconnectedness is the scientific evidence that this is possible. There are abundant documented cases of talented out-of-body travelers (from all over the world, and from many different periods of time) that can perform "psychic" feats when in an out-of-body journey. They can bring back information that cannot be explained by any kind of normal, cognitive perception. Also, the parallels between what people describe in out-of-body experiences, near death experiences, ayahuasca journeys etc, suggests that the experience is real. When in these states it is impossible for the mind to comprehend what it is seeing, and that's where you have a part in subjectively constructing what you see. I believe that it is access to pure information, which is what the mind is made up of. I think the idea of "spiritual" experience is skewed by the image of spirituality put out there by all the metaphysics books you see in Barnes & Noble. If you ask me, a soul or ghost in the machine or better put, consciousness, is better described as a concentration of information. Information cannot be destroyed, that is the basis for my belief in any sort of life after death. The self organizing nature of matter is quite possibly what gives birth to consciousness. The human brain is most organized piece of matter we know to exist. consciousness is then a property of matter, matter contains information and cannot be destroyed.

Schizophrenia offers much insight. Take multiple personality disorders for example: You have a multiple with say 3 personalities. each personality has a completely different brainwave pattern. Lets say 2 of these personalities are allergic to something that gives them a rash. When the 3rd personality takes over, the rash will disappear! Similarly, if a one personality is a child, and an adult personality ingests some sort of "adult-sized" drug dose, when the child personality takes over, he can physically have an overdose! What does that say about your body? where does your mind stop and your body start? Your mind obviously has complete control over the condition of the body. Everyday life is so distracting that this idea is tucked away and the average person has very little self-awareness. The ability to self-diagnose and heal yourself is endless through meditation. The placebo effect offers insight as well. If you truly believe you are taking a medication for something, your mind will literally turn a sugar pill into a medicine.

I'm all for deconstructing a religion based on entheogens. I think you guys are very right in that we need to slice through all the delusion and thoughtlessness and blind faith that surrounds this subject. I strongly suggest you read The Holographic Universe by Micheal Talbot. He gives a comprehensive view of the experience in terms that there is a sea of pure information that lies beyond normal perception. The pure information is "folded" up in the higher order of reality. What we have in the physical world, right here and now is an "unfolding" of the order. All of his theory is supported by fundamental quantum physics discoveries. I do a terrible job of explaining it however. You guys want proof and science, and I think Micheal Talbot has a good way of scientifically explaining the phenomena of hyperspace.

I don't faithfully subscribe to any sort of specific religious belief, I'm not a zealot, and I'm always open to have my worldview smashed to bits by unadulterated truth.

 

[burnt]

I like where you are going with this 970. I think there is scientifically valid explanations for all the weirdness that goes on in these experiences. That's really all I want people to get from this discussion. Is that we can progress on this issue and we don't have to rely on supernatural explanations until everything else is ruled out. I guess I just shy away from the term spirit because to me its all energy. To me energy is what was once thought to be spirit. Again a language thing.

I only have a general understanding of holographic theory and although there is experimental evidence missing, although a group claims to have found some "Holographic noise" may herald new era in physics - ScienceAGoGo its still a ways to go. Its interesting nonetheless.

 

[deedle-doo]

Maybe it could be helpful if we rephrase this debate in terms of logic. Both the scientific crowd and the pure reason crowd can usually get behind logic.

From my reading of this thread it seems that both sides of the debate would agree that the mind is necessary to experience visions of entities. We differ on whether the mind is sufficient for these visions. The 'elves are real' camp would argue that the mind is not sufficient to experience elves; that an external information source is required. The 'elves are constructs of the mind' camp would argue that the information required to form these entities is present in your mind, although not ordinarily accessible to waking consciousness.

Is this fair to folks?

Maybe if we can agree on this logical framework we can propose some avenues of investigation. We have sufficiency as a crux to rigorously test.

e.g. an important corollary of the 'elves are real' hypothesis is that the brain can access external information source(s) through some mechanism not involving normal sensory perception but only under certain circumstances (psychedelic states, schizophrenia and NDEs for example.)
The most detailed versions of this corollary invoke exotic physical mechanisms. Usually something like this: "The brain is made up of super-complex pathways of electrical energies all wrapped around each other in very small, very complex whoops and whirls. This complicated topology and microscopic compactness somehow allow the brain to resonate with information present in higher spatial dimensions. Exogenous tryptamines either 1. Turn up the gain on this resonator elevating these perceptions to the level of waking consciousness. 2: Remove perceptual filters that usually prevent us from perceiving this higher dimensional information."

Lucky for us there is a detailed mathematics describing the behavior of higher dimensions. If we can rule this possibility in or out we will make progress. I think it is very unlikely that the human brain resonates with information present in higher spatial dimensions but at least this is testable. We need tests because we suck at distinguishing truth from fantasy.

People should be suspicious of conclusions derived from pure reason. There is nothing special about the human mind that lets it simply generate truth. Human minds get stuff wrong all the time. The briefest reading of human intellectual history will prove this.

We can make other avenues into both sides. If entities are generated by the brain then how? Does the same neurological mechanism that produces DMT entities produce encounters with ghosts and monsters in waking consciousness? Can we induce these encounters more specifically without the whole spectrum of experiences usually associated with them? Can we combine this functional approach with high resolution brain imaging to map consciousness?

These kinds of questions are really really exciting to me. Using mind altering compounds to 'genetically' dissect human consciousness seems like it would be a really powerful approach. maybe lead to an important breakthrough in brain science. This will be more difficult for serious investigators if it is shown that psychedelic use increases irrational belief in various spaghetti monsters.

 

[TheNtt]

The holographic theory is brilliant. After reading most of The Holographic Universe, and the Divine Matrix by Gregg Braden, my psychedelic experiences suddenly made sense. Adding on to what 970Codfert has said about the physical dimension in which our consciousness typically resides- Yes, this reality is unfolding from some higher order beyond our perception (according the the holographic theory). But how? Humans definitley have an impact on reality... we're capable of changing reality. So if reality is unfolding before us, but we can influence it at the same time, then there must be some form of communication between the here and now, and the greater source which here and now is derived. I believe this form of communication, or language if you will, is the language of EMOTION. I find this relevant to the original article posted in this thread because the author completely disregarded a huge part of the DMT experience- the emotional part! It just seems silly to me to think that people could have such deep emotional bonds with entities in DMT land if they weren't real begins. In DMT the spirit molecule several people reported back that the entities they encountered were extremely interested in the human's ability to feel emotions. I found this correlation extremely fascinating. Gregg Braden puts forth the theory that emotion is the language which humans can use to directly influence their surroundings. This idea corresponds with ancient Buddhist texts, which claim that emotion is the key to having your prayer's answered.

 

[970Codfert]

deedle-doo laid out a very good frame of reference. I like how this thread is going, I'm glad we're all being respectful in sharing our ideas. I wish I had more specific knowledge on the brain, perhaps that's where I'm going to turn my research's attention. I started reading an article in the archives here on the nexus about DNA. I find DNA absolutely fascinating and I've started to see that it is closely related to emotions and that it is possible that the two work together somehow to manifest our experiences in the unfolding of reality. I don't have any hard data to back that up, but in my reading and search for knowledge I've started to see a sort of theme with DNA and emotions.

The crazy thing is, the scientific community has MUCH to learn about DNA. I hope that in my lifetime there are some serious breakthrough discoveries.

 

[○]

deedle-doo laid out a very good frame of reference. I like how this thread is going, I'm glad we're all being respectful in sharing our ideas. I wish I had more specific knowledge on the brain, perhaps that's where I'm going to turn my research's attention. I started reading an article in the archives here on the nexus about DNA. I find DNA absolutely fascinating and I've started to see that it is closely related to emotions and that it is possible that the two work together somehow to manifest our experiences in the unfolding of reality. I don't have any hard data to back that up, but in my reading and search for knowledge I've started to see a sort of theme with DNA and emotions.

The crazy thing is, the scientific community has MUCH to learn about DNA. I hope that in my lifetime there are some serious breakthrough discoveries.

Regarding DNA, emotions, and the interaction between the rwo. This is interesting.

 

[burnt]

More on DNA phantom effect http://www.rialian.com/rnboyd/dna-phantom.htm

Realize that there are going to be tons of wacked out people hearing about things like this and making all kinds of wacked out non scientific theories about DNA when they know basically jack about what DNA is and what it does.

DNA codes for RNA which is a code of nucleic acids that can be recognized to build proteins out of amino acids. That's how DNA makes us who we are, it is the blueprint literally of all of our proteins that do most of the work in our bodies. There are many serious breakthroughs happening in this field all the time. If you want to learn the facts about DNA learn about the above process. Sometimes its known as the central dogma of DNA (just a funny phrase has nothing to do with dogmatic religious beliefs ). Francis Crick just termed in that way because he liked the way it sounded.

But about DNA and emotions. DNA can effect emotions by coding for proteins (which could act as receptors in the brain and many other mechanisms) in our body and central nervous system that are involved in emotions. This can happen as lets say certain drugs or certain diets or certain physical or emotional states can alter DNA expression levels for those proteins involved either directly or indirectly in our overall emotional states. This does happen and its a proven fact in a number of cases. But to understand what I mean hear you need to understand how DNA works by the above process that I already mentioned. Seriously its the most important aspect of what DNA does and its vital in understanding how DNA works.

I don't see how the DNA polymer effect on photons in vacuum have anything to do with DNA's effects on emotions. I think to make such a connection may be very misleading. I am sure many different types of polymers with similar types of structures as DNA could effect photons in vacuum in a similar manner. But I am not physicist so I can't comment more on that.

Anyway back to the elves:

Lucky for us there is a detailed mathematics describing the behavior of higher dimensions. If we can rule this possibility in or out we will make progress. I think it is very unlikely that the human brain resonates with information present in higher spatial dimensions but at least this is testable. We need tests because we suck at distinguishing truth from fantasy.

I think one of the first parts to this side of the story is to actually find out if other dimensions besides the 4 we are familiar with do exist. This is a job for physicists. Then it becomes a job for biologists to figure out what if any effect this fundamental aspect of nature could have on consciousness etc. It seems that we evolved perfectly fine to just live in and perceive things in our 4 dimensional world. But perhaps an altered brain could access information from other dimensions under the right conditions. How that might happen I honestly don't have a clue. However this entire idea really does rely on whether or not other dimensions exist. Maybe altered states of consciousness will give physicists some new ideas to look for these dimensions but I think it will happen the other way around. If physicists find evidence for other dimensions then people who study altered states of consciousness can start to build a more coherent theory. But who knows maybe they will go hand in hand.

We can make other avenues into both sides. If entities are generated by the brain then how? Does the same neurological mechanism that produces DMT entities produce encounters with ghosts and monsters in waking consciousness? Can we induce these encounters more specifically without the whole spectrum of experiences usually associated with them? Can we combine this functional approach with high resolution brain imaging to map consciousness?

Good question. Ever hear of the god helmet? Basically this guy Michael Persinger uses a helmet machine to effect certain kinds of magentic fields in certain areas of the temporal lobe and many people claim to feel the presence of other entities or communicate with them. There is a lot of criticisms to this research but many fall in line with the same kinds of criticisms against psychedelic drug research. For example someone takes or uses the thing and doesn't have such an experience and thus doesn't believe it does anything. Could also be a placebo effect because people think something is going to happen. That's similar with psychedelics people think something will happen then they take a drug that drastically alters consciousness and then something spiritual does happen.

Either way it may turn out to be another additional tool for this kind of work. Also I think certain encounters may be more possible to induce specifically. One way is the way favored by Shulgin is to just look for different drugs that are more specific, for example one that induces auditary hallucinations only or only visual hallucinations or only to induce an emotional state. Another way is along the same lines as Dr. Persinger to use different kinds of physical phenomenon (electromagnetic energy) to influence brain states and see what more we can learn.

So yes I think we can use this approach to study how consciousness can be mapped and how certain brain states correlate with certain conscious states. But this may not tell us what consciousness is at its roots. It may shed light on how it works but to say what conscious is from this kind of work may need another approach. I am not sure what that approach is but do you see what I mean? Any ideas anyone?

These kinds of questions are really really exciting to me. Using mind altering compounds to 'genetically' dissect human consciousness seems like it would be a really powerful approach. maybe lead to an important breakthrough in brain science. This will be more difficult for serious investigators if it is shown that psychedelic use increases irrational belief in various spaghetti monsters.

Agreed deedle doo. This sums up why I find this field of study interesting and why I ramble on about how people need to be careful in their approaches to using these substances because they are illegal and more negative attention will interfere with serious scientific research into these very interesting uses. I think people have the right to use these substances for themselves but they must be careful if they go around telling everyone it will enlighten the world. Kind of like how Timothy Leary's actions along with many others brought about the LSD hysteria in the 60's which essentially ruined the ability for serious researchers to move forward on many of these issues until rather recently. Things seem to be picking up again but the more times I see news reports of people getting arrested or some new club drug it worries me that it can easily be shut down again if things get out of control.

 

[deedle-doo]

I think one of the first parts to this side of the story is to actually find out if other dimensions besides the 4 we are familiar with do exist. This is a job for physicists. Then it becomes a job for biologists to figure out what if any effect this fundamental aspect of nature could have on consciousness etc.

idk, it doesn't have to go that way. Theoretical work is cheaper and it can be a good exclusive test. It tells us if a phenomena can happen but it doesn't tell us if a phenomena does happen. Boltzmann built theoretical models of gasses based on atomic theory decades before atoms became well accepted. The fantastic predictive ability of the theory helped the atomic model gain acceptance.
I think theorists have to be creative to look for implications of their theories everywhere in nature. It'd be pretty fun to hear a well trained theorist speculate about this. My bet is that she could exclude the presence of a transdimensional oscilloscope right off but who knows.

So yes I think we can use this approach to study how consciousness can be mapped and how certain brain states correlate with certain conscious states. But this may not tell us what consciousness is at its roots. It may shed light on how it works but to say what conscious is from this kind of work may need another approach. I am not sure what that approach is but do you see what I mean? Any ideas anyone?

These approaches will give only give us data. To get the best data we need agents that can target specific neurotransmitter signaling pathways in specific layers of individual cortical columns. Maybe magnetic fields are the way to go. Could you somehow 'cage' a drug and 'uncage' it with magnetic fields at specific sites in the brain?
What I like to imagine is the possibility of selective gain and loss of function studies of specific neurotransmitter pathways in very specific locations of the brain combined with high resolution imaging to detect the resulting changes in all other parts of the brain.

Using this approach we could build highly detailed networked pathways similar to those built by geneticists. Ultimately we would ask if our network model could give rise to consciousness if replicated in a computer.

Then we could program in a DMT trip and ask the machine if it saw elves

 

[○]

Our world may be a giant hologram

Could our three dimensions be the ultimate cosmic illusion? A German detector is picking up a hint that we are all mere projections

www.newscientist.com

Great read,.

And yesterday I bought "The Holographic Universe" and am almost done reading it today. Can't put it down.

The rabbit hole is going pretty far

 

[○]

I will never let this thread die! haha

Interesting 5 part interview with Talbot. It kind of goes hand in hand with the last post I made.

 

[burnt]

To get the best data we need agents that can target specific neurotransmitter signaling pathways in specific layers of individual cortical columns. Maybe magnetic fields are the way to go. Could you somehow 'cage' a drug and 'uncage' it with magnetic fields at specific sites in the brain?

Well I don't think there would ever be ligands that specific and potent. Also since neural receptors can be on many different types of cells it wouldn't really matter it could never get that specific. So a more specific way would be needed. Is magnetic fields the way to go I don't know.

I am still quite unfamiliar with how magnetic fields could influence neural firing? Any mechanism behind this you know of? Like you can stick someone in an MRI and nothing happens really to them. Nuclei in their atoms may align along a magnetic field and when it relaxes you can see something but its just like NMR nothing really is altered so much by it. Its just spectroscopy. But supposedly this helmet can induce things to happen. I guess I am curious as to how it works. If we can know how it works we can speculate how far the technology could take us.

Using this approach we could build highly detailed networked pathways similar to those built by geneticists. Ultimately we would ask if our network model could give rise to consciousness if replicated in a computer.

Yes if we could build a conscious machine. I tend to think we are one but if we could build one it would certainly be am interesting way to study what consciousness is.



Again all this could help answer our grand old question of whether or not the elves are real. Its kind of funny how someone asking a simple question about whether or not the elves are real brought up again a discussion of the nature of what consciousness is. I think it really is at the heart of the question though. From schizophrenia to psychedelics its all part of this reality continuim.

 

[970Codfert]

Good stuff, wish I had time right now to read it all and really post.

Glad you like the holographic universe, I couldn't put it down either! I think it has a good scientific explaination of phenomenon that deal with consciousness.

ALL HAIL THE PRODUCTIVE THREAD!!

 

[deedle-doo]

Well I don't think there would ever be ligands that specific and potent. Also since neural receptors can be on many different types of cells it wouldn't really matter it could never get that specific. So a more specific way would be needed. Is magnetic fields the way to go I don't know.

Yeah, I was thinking more of very specific delivery methods of potent compounds. Somehow 'caging' a drug and releasing it by some non-intrusive method.

I am still quite unfamiliar with how magnetic fields could influence neural firing? Any mechanism behind this you know of? Like you can stick someone in an MRI and nothing happens really to them. Nuclei in their atoms may align along a magnetic field and when it relaxes you can see something but its just like NMR nothing really is altered so much by it. Its just spectroscopy. But supposedly this helmet can induce things to happen. I guess I am curious as to how it works. If we can know how it works we can speculate how far the technology could take us.

I bet the helmet effect is real. It is supposed to elicit the feeling of another presence. Like that feeling that you're being watched. It's supposed to work in double blind trials. The whole god part is overblown but most people do feel something.

The guy who does this work is a total hack though. The effects of static and rapidly changing magnetic fields on neurons is just barely being looked at carefully in mice. Magnetic fields do all kinds of stuff to neurons. They make some neurons fire more frequently and other neurons fire less frequently. Magnetic fields can also cause all kinds of weird transcriptional changes in vitro.

Again all this could help answer our grand old question of whether or not the elves are real. Its kind of funny how someone asking a simple question about whether or not the elves are real brought up again a discussion of the nature of what consciousness is. I think it really is at the heart of the question though. From schizophrenia to psychedelics its all part of this reality continuim.

haha, this discussion of what consciousness is will go on for a long time. Nobody likes to give up the idea that consciousness is supernatural.

 

[VisualDistortion]

Well, after starting this thread, sitting idle, and really watching the conversation progress and learning both sides I'm going to speak a little. I mostly sampathize with burnt's position. I was raised on western ideology. In my adolescent years I discovered drugs, mainly methamphetamine. I did this because after moving a couple times, I came to a town in which I was rejected in every sense of the word. Having no sense of belonging I became wrapped up in my own world and just wanted to escape society. Eventually I got careless and I got busted.

I was soon made to meet with a counseler who was a youth pastor at a local church(Whom I'm still good friends with to this very day) and I was forced to go to their youth group. It was in christianity that I ended up finding a sense of belonging. A sense that I was wanted and loved. And even though many people disagree with many of the ideologies, as do I, the bible and history that surrounds it is pretty fascinating and good brain food to boot.

Anyways, I hung around the church and became a very active member and leader in the youth group. It went a long way in helping some of my social disorders that came about from methamphetamine and my overall disdain for for the town that I lived in and the people I went to school with. This was all good and wellfor about one and a half or two years until there was basically a coop that forced out the youth pastor who had counseled me and replaced him with the head pastor's son.

This coop was performed in such a way that it did not raise suspision. The youth group actually thrived for a while and we were happy. But as I became a more prominent member of the church I was introduced to more of the political side of it. The back stabbing, lying and power plays eventually lead to my disillusionment with the christian church and faith as a whole. Surely this couldn't be the vessel to deliver god's perfect plan. On the day that I definitively denied god, I turned to the bottle and almost died that night. An incredibly stupid and altogether destructive act.

I was shattered. I wanted nothing more than to believe in god, that christ was his son, that if I believed in him as my savior that I should be saved. It was something that I wanted but could not except because frankly, it was not true to me anymore. This left a giagantic void in my and I just floated around in life until I discovered entheogens. Entheogens did alot for me. They helped me conquer many things that I will not discuss here. But they did do one thing that nothing else had been able to. They manifested the feelings of faith and god in me. They gave me a sense and belief in something greater, something cosmic.

And this is where I am torn. I believe my brain is quite split on the matter. My left side agrees with burnt. We are self concious machines. It's what makes sense, it can be tested. And I conciously believe that religion and belief in the afterlife is a sort of survival mechanism combine with our capacity for abstract thought. It really is brilliant. Our brain has found a way to satisfy it number one instinct, survival. I mean, how can we ever die if we are living eternally with the father, the son, and holy spirit. That is my logical side talking.

My right side says differently. It has feelings of universal conciousness. That everything shares the same life. That we are all vessel for the universal conciousness to gain experience. These are thoughts and feeling that are still being explored. But I cannot deny that my logical side is winning out and is my excepted belief as of now. I'm really leaning toward the thought that religion and belief in god and the afterlife are just tools of rationalization and ways to satisfy our nature. To me it is just the explination that makes sense.

But at the moment I will not disregard the "spiritual" and "religious" explanations for phenomina, reality and existance. I must say, that I still harbor some of those thoughts and feelings, but I believe that is because I can't help it. I think my "spiritual" beliefs are not enlightment made manifest by sacred chemicals and plants, but defense mechanisms triggered by those chemicals and plants.

 

[burnt]

Yeah, I was thinking more of very specific delivery methods of potent compounds. Somehow 'caging' a drug and releasing it by some non-intrusive method.

Well something I always wonder about is lets say you have two compounds that both have very similar affinity for the same receptors but there effects are quite different. Is this a result of how they distribute in various tissue and pharmacokinetics or is it more affinity to sub-receptors we may or may not know about. I think its partially both. But I think it leaves room to take advantage of how a compound distributes in the CNS or elsewhere through perhaps pro-drugs or maybe even more tinkering with structures. But you can only tinker so much structures in terms of getting a specific effect. Shulgin certainly accomplished this with some of his inventions, as did all the combitorial chemistry coupled with drug discovery in the last few decades, but still ligands super specific for one effect is tough to come by. So yea I guess what I am saying is I see limits with structure tinkering although a wide array of compounds with different effects is a useful tool it will eventually reach a point where we can only get so much information from such experiments. I don't think we have come close to reaching that point but still it will probably happen.

Then a caging approach specific for certain neural pathways would be an amazing tool. How it would work though I can't imagine a way...

The guy who does this work is a total hack though. The effects of static and rapidly changing magnetic fields on neurons is just barely being looked at carefully in mice. Magnetic fields do all kinds of stuff to neurons. They make some neurons fire more frequently and other neurons fire less frequently. Magnetic fields can also cause all kinds of weird transcriptional changes in vitro.

Any idea on the intensity of the field required?

Glad you like the holographic universe, I couldn't put it down either! I think it has a good scientific explaination of phenomenon that deal with consciousness.

I'll have to check this book out one day. But I am skeptical about some aspects of holographic theory. But those same skepticisms I hold with many theoretical physics that do not have experimental backing. Mathematics can predict things but experimental evidence is really the crux needed to solidify any such theory. They claim to have detected holographic noise in those gravitational wave detectors but that noise could be lots of things.


Visualdistortion, thanks for sharing that. Your definatly not alone in your story. Believe it or not burnt was once an alter boy! :lol: :lol: :lol: Imagine that. Anyway I also at one point in my life abandoned mainstream religion and used entheogenic substances to fill that void. But then some things that I already mentioned happened that made me question the reality of what had been experienced. Regardless of whether or not their is spirits or a soul I can still feel the same reverence and awe by just looking at the cosmos and existence and life and all we know about it through science. I think most people who don't understand what science is all about feel its a cold dead world when looked at that way. I don't see it like that at all. I don't feel small and worthless because we are descended from monkeys and our planet is just a speck of dust in the universe. Many people are afraid of those facts.

 

[WSaged]

VisualDistortion, It sounds like you walked right into the wall that separates spirituality & religion!!
I applaud you for seeing through it & getting away from it, rather than joining in & getting your share of the big rip-off!! Sounds like you had their door open to you.
Respect!

Spirituality is deeply personal and at the same time is the joining connection to every living thing in the universe.
Take away the physical meat we all see & so think is who/what we are, and your left with the group-mind, god-consciousness, enlightenment, whatever one feels they need to call it.
No big, fancy, expensive buildings are necessary to access what is already inside us all!

Religion on the other hand, is simply a way of manipulating this feeling that we all have within us, to control people!!
Money, Money, Money, Money, god needs more money for some reason!!!
Now I don't think every person involved with religion & church is a crook, a lot of them probably feel like what they are doing is legit.
But it seems that even those people are using religion as a way to justify being a shit all week long. Because as long as they go to church on Sunday & ask god for forgiveness, they are OK to do whatever they want, to whom ever they want, no matter what!!

Gotta stop there...

WS

 

[○]

Good stuff, wish I had time right now to read it all and really post.

Glad you like the holographic universe, I couldn't put it down either! I think it has a good scientific explaination of phenomenon that deal with consciousness.

ALL HAIL THE PRODUCTIVE THREAD!!

Yeah I highly reccomend that book to anyone in this thread. I'm very much into physics and all that, even though I often speak in alot of spiritual context. But after reading that book, psychedelics seem to make alot more sense now. And the endless examples of the testing from Bohm and others heavily supports (but doesn't prove fact) the holographic universe theory.

Just a very interesting read imo. Makes you think

 

[TheNtt]

Good stuff, wish I had time right now to read it all and really post.

Glad you like the holographic universe, I couldn't put it down either! I think it has a good scientific explaination of phenomenon that deal with consciousness.

ALL HAIL THE PRODUCTIVE THREAD!!

Yeah I highly reccomend that book to anyone in this thread. I'm very much into physics and all that, even though I often speak in alot of spiritual context. But after reading that book, psychedelics seem to make alot more sense now. And the endless examples of the testing from Bohm and others heavily supports (but doesn't prove fact) the holographic universe theory.

Just a very interesting read imo. Makes you think

Check out the Divine Matrix by Gregg Braden. You can watch him summarize the concepts discussed in the book via youtube.
Here is the link:

This is a damn interesting thread. I love the nexus! :d

 

[○]

Good stuff, wish I had time right now to read it all and really post.

Glad you like the holographic universe, I couldn't put it down either! I think it has a good scientific explaination of phenomenon that deal with consciousness.

ALL HAIL THE PRODUCTIVE THREAD!!

Yeah I highly reccomend that book to anyone in this thread. I'm very much into physics and all that, even though I often speak in alot of spiritual context. But after reading that book, psychedelics seem to make alot more sense now. And the endless examples of the testing from Bohm and others heavily supports (but doesn't prove fact) the holographic universe theory.

Just a very interesting read imo. Makes you think

Check out the Divine Matrix by Gregg Braden. You can watch him summarize the concepts discussed in the book via youtube.
Here is the link:

This is a damn interesting thread. I love the nexus! :d

Haha I actually watched all the parts of this video series a few days back. VERY interesting! I was actually going to suggest that but you beat me to it!

 

[○]

bumping this thread..