The case against Elves

[xantus]

We have tons of instruments and ways of detecting what we don't see. For example the vast majority of the electromagnetic spectrum we don't see or perceive. Yet we know its there. High intensity radiation can burn you. Radiowaves. Microwaves. There are a million examples.

are you implying the instruments are somehow distinct or independent from your senses?
sight is only one sense. you will feel the burn from radiation. you make the readings from your machines with your own eyes and fingers.

a machine may show you a spectrum of light that you don't see normally. so can a molecule from a plant. why does one have more merit than the other?

boundary dissolusion shows you that you are everything, that there is no "out there" or separateness.

What if I were to tell you that, that entire experience is a real illusion (haha funny way to phrase that but you know what I mean)? A trick of your brain. An inability of your brain to distinguish your physical body from its surroundings. That so far is just as valid of an explanation for boundry dissolution as your mystical explanation. One that has some scientific backing. We are all made of the same "stuff" so that is true. But are we all one? In some sense yes but in many other ways no we are not. Again you are relying on a subjective experience, the experience of oneness, to make your conclusions about reality. You see?

Does anyone see what I mean when I say what I said above?

I don't think I would ever use the symbols 'mystical' or 'spiritual'. why does my own point of view which has been cultivated solely from my own experiences and relating to other people's experiences get labeled as 'mystical' ??

as far as I am concerned, all of everything is real and an illusion at the same time. there is the sense of an infinite number of levels. all this is just one level. but maybe this is where the discussion is hard to go much further...
if you don't trust your own mind, what else can you trust? do you even need to trust? I'm not sure where else to go from here.

 

[MindInfoRreality]

SWIMs boundries have been dissolved enough times there is no need to repeat and repeat and repeat and wind up again with the same choice. That choice is faith. Faith is a cop out. Another way of saying "I give up" and fall in the ranks.

That is why science is the only way forward. There is an objective world out there, who claims there isn't? Our senses only interpret it thus creating our subjective experience but there is more that lies beyond our senses and our human (note human is the important word here) sensory experience.

To be inbetween faith and proof..is logic. If science is your way through your mess of sensory input, so be it, but youre easily creating boundaries you HAVE striven to eliminate. All this 'mystical' talk is false, it is our imaginations putting mindless conclusions to unanswerable questions. But on the other side scientific evidence is too 'physical', 'tangible', and it can become the other extreme in comparison wit faith(being that the faith is blind and un-self-imposed) and in exactly the case above you limit yourself to what you know, or mayb think you know, and are only backing the true pioneers in science, those who do act on "mystical" ideas and try to prove/IMprove them. Would you agree your thoughts are not really there, yes electrical impulses, but how bout those epiphany feelings when youve stumbled accross something groundbreaking, try to explain how you felt and what you were undertaking. You cannot because youve experienced a subjective aspect of true knowledge, and youve accomplished it by creating, knowing, and 'seeing'-at once-all variables and rights/wrongs/idks and w/e you have come to quasibelieve, and can see past all the 'proof' and understand, sometimes its just the story of why ppl know this to be true(but havent thought of themselves). What im tryin to work to is that your reality is your WORKING mind. and your working mind is the line between facts, ideas/ideals, desires, circumstance, illusions, and imagination, and i wanna say you cannot let walls be built(by urself or your experiences) but in fact we are tearing down these walls but anyway i wanna make sure, burnt, you dont fall away from the open mindness we all share. stop being a skeptic and just pack up another bowl already

plus one thing to note: i hate language! its completely inadequate and ppl tend to focus soley on a words accepted deffinition and not what it means implicitly. and stop catagorizing, ppl think they need to think in certain sections and not all incompassingly and also need to chose a side, thats where the unrest has come from here

 

[xantus]

exactly MindInfoRreality... reality is contextual. try to take it out of context and what have you got? non-sequitur is a popular style of joke... I wonder why...


i'm not sure if it comes across in my ideas that I write down but I would not call myself mystical or scientific. I would maybe go so far as to call myself Curious, Happy, Content, At Ease, an Observer, or a Participant.

live in the here-and-now while time is finite. ponder the infinite variables and questions when time is infinite. have an unworried mind that is prepared to notice anything.

 

[Pixx]

compressing the experience into language/meaning..... isn't that the root of shamanism? isn't that what mckenna's main theory about tryptamines is? a source of linguistic inspiration.

Jesus spoke in metephores.

I'm training in Ericksonian hypnosis. ALL Milton Erickson's hypnosis sessions, where based around metephores - its a way to speak to the unconscious mind, without necesseraly having the words to express directly.

Thers countless stories of people who would see Milton Erickson to cure their headache. He would ramble on all these different stories about things that seemed completely irrelevant. Then, whilst still waiting to go into trance they'd suddenly realise that the headache had gone. They where cured.

Erickson was a genious. He spent half his life in meditation & the other half guiding people through meditation. Whether they realised it or not.

 

[burnt]

Here we go. If the elves are real then so is a schizophrenics conversation with demons consuming his mind. There is no difference except what parts are being effected. Can you accept that the schizophrenic is actually talking to a demon? Or whatever it thinks it is. Or even more silly jesus. People all the time think Jesus is or has spoken to them. Its not real. At least if it is real then ok anythings possible but I see no reason to believe in such things just because you experienced it.

We are going around in circles with the science versus whatever else there is thing and its getting redundant. I think science is useful for solving this issue and I think to think otherwise is kind of naive about what science has already taught us about our minds and altered states of consciousness.

why does one have more merit than the other?

Neither has more merit. It all depends what you are trying to measure. I think our perceptions under the influence of dmt very seriously altered. It can make you see things that aren't there and it can also change the way you see things. Its not a "wrong" way of seeing the world but that doesn't mean when you hear voices and see dancing creatures they are real separate conscious beings from another dimension.

I don't think I would ever use the symbols 'mystical' or 'spiritual'. why does my own point of view which has been cultivated solely from my own experiences and relating to other people's experiences get labeled as 'mystical' ??

as far as I am concerned, all of everything is real and an illusion at the same time. there is the sense of an infinite number of levels. all this is just one level. but maybe this is where the discussion is hard to go much further...

Didn't mean to label anything but I often lump psychedelic experiences and mystical experiences into some similar pile.

Yes this is where the discussion gets difficult.

To be inbetween faith and proof..is logic. If science is your way through your mess of sensory input, so be it, but youre easily creating boundaries you HAVE striven to eliminate. All this 'mystical' talk is false, it is our imaginations putting mindless conclusions to unanswerable questions. But on the other side scientific evidence is too 'physical', 'tangible', and it can become the other extreme in comparison wit faith(being that the faith is blind and un-self-imposed) and in exactly the case above you limit yourself to what you know, or mayb think you know, and are only backing the true pioneers in science, those who do act on "mystical" ideas and try to prove/IMprove them. Would you agree your thoughts are not really there, yes electrical impulses, but how bout those epiphany feelings when youve stumbled accross something groundbreaking, try to explain how you felt and what you were undertaking. You cannot because youve experienced a subjective aspect of true knowledge, and youve accomplished it by creating, knowing, and 'seeing'-at once-all variables and rights/wrongs/idks and w/e you have come to quasibelieve, and can see past all the 'proof' and understand, sometimes its just the story of why ppl know this to be true(but havent thought of themselves). What im tryin to work to is that your reality is your WORKING mind. and your working mind is the line between facts, ideas/ideals, desires, circumstance, illusions, and imagination, and i wanna say you cannot let walls be built(by urself or your experiences) but in fact we are tearing down these walls but anyway i wanna make sure, burnt, you dont fall away from the open mindness we all share. stop being a skeptic and just pack up another bowl already

Science does not go to an extreme where it is comparable with faith. The real world we see it describes rather well. The weird world of our consciousness we don't get yet. No big deal. I don't see how any of this helps move forward whether or not elves are real. I am not being closed minded about it. I can accept that there are some things we as humans may never understand but the way forward is science and thought, reason, logic, progress not jumping to crazy beliefs about elves and demons because thousands upon millions of people in history think they saw them at one time or another. We "know" your brain is capable of making illusions so why are the elves any different?

::Burnts take's a bong hit:: 8)

Seriously what is so wrong with claiming that science is probably one of the best ways forward on this issue? If you can think of another let me know. But all the meditation, tripping, or praying in the world won't push this any further.

 

[MindInfoRreality]

lol
What im sayin is that faith is an unnecessary belief in something that has not been proven and if you only think creative thoughts that have definite scientific evidence then your missing out

And SWIM has always thought DMT tripping was purely metaphorical, so how come elves cant be a metaphor for the real conscious blobs of energy that simultaneously coexist possibly on earth as well. It doesnt have to be concrete. But say there are higher dimensions wthin this one, made of completely dif building blocks of energy, even when we were tripping how are we supposed to perceive them. they are beyond the grip of our senses and will eternily remain that way.

 

[xantus]

If the elves are real then so is a schizophrenics conversation with demons consuming his mind. There is no difference except what parts are being effected. Can you accept that the schizophrenic is actually talking to a demon? Or whatever it thinks it is.

just because the demon is unreal to you does not mean the demon is unreal to the schizophrenic. noone has the authority to say what is real or unreal except the observer. in another culture perhaps schizophrenia would be a blessing, a conduit that the lucky ones have access to.

you and said schizophrenic meet on the street. he says "I see demons" you say "I do not see demons" how can you say anything more on the matter? who thought it was a good idea to say "you shouldn't see demons..."

a statement such as "the elves are real" is quite pointless to me. I would be comfortable with "sometimes I interact with these elves. this interaction is as memorable and tangible as any experience I have ever had."

Seriously what is so wrong with claiming that science is probably one of the best ways forward on this issue? If you can think of another let me know. But all the meditation, tripping, or praying in the world won't push this any further.

as there is no wrong, there is no best. it seems to me that you think if the majority of the world population turned it's attention towards psychedelics and inner exploration...nothing would come of it?

how else do you possibly consider an ocean explored unless you dive into its depths?

when you want to eat dinner, who do you call? the oceanographer or the fisherman??

 

[olderROM]

Gettem' burnt! 'Cause I ain't gotz da energy twa do it meselfz!

Sorry if I offend anyoneu =P I am just kinda crudely unsophisticated sometimes. I think its an American thing. =P So, don't take it to heart.............. anyways....... on to the crudness.....

I read the posts of Burnt and I get it instantly. I can't even read this other crap I am seein' here. Come on, chap up lads. This is DMT-Nexus and not turn 2 islam.com. The Science vs Faith crap IS getting old and redundant. Let us move on... HONESTLY! What if, what if, what if, BLAH! If anyone is going to make any progress it is through the scientific method. PERIOD. We are no different. There is a place for metaphysical theory dialog but it isn't here. This post is of a scientific nature.

For tens of thousands of years(at least) people have been philosophizing and coming up with "theoretical" constructs(Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Sikhism). Great as they may be(sometimes)... They haven't done a damn thing to progress our understanding of the universe. These states of consciousness are testable. Science explains EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE including consciousness. Science writes the book of understanding of our universe. Some things seem fleeting and unexplainable but that is just because we don't have the scienticially proven framework to look at it with. The Universe works. we are a living testament of that. The universe works and everything that happens in the universe is explainable... uncluding the little DMT elves.

I don't like listening to these kids spit this crap out. There isn't any more reason to argue about this kids! I don't feel like you guys are even processing what Burn is saying. I keep getting loopbacks. I feel like i am talking to fundamentalist is lamic ji ya hadies! There is a way to test the DMT experience. I just don't know how yet.

If it happens for real.......... Science CAN explain it. If the DMT elves exist and these dimensions are real, then SCIENCE CAN EXPLAIN IT. PERIOD. It may just take another thousand years of progress......... If they aren't real then science can show that too. PERIOD.

How are we going to go about it? I still think that my post on page 6 is kind of helpful in that attempt.... but really knock of the bullshit guys. It's giving me a headache.

 

[xantus]

olderROM I would attempt to enter into dialogue with you but I saw this...

But then again, I don't have any real "DMT time" to speak of under my belt... so maybe I am just blowing wind.

so how can we begin to relate?

if people are lumping my posts into 'science vs faith' then they are missing it... if you assume anything you are overstepping yourself.

have you sat down and read the rig veda? I am not a religous person by any means. several things they write down in this epigenetic way... in metaphor, story, and quite literally... are things you find in the psychedelic experience.

if you assume anything you are overstepping yourself.

 

[olderROM]

BTW they did devise a test for String Theory. See, the impossible is possible =P The funny thing is, if string theory fails the test they will just redo the math to make it fit the test results. Haha. Sometimes this shit is impossible.......

I started reading the Bhagavad Gita today actually. It is a part of the Vedics.

When I take psychedelics. Technolgy becomes amazing and it takes on a life of its own when I am tripping. I can understand, think about, and contemplate the physical sciences 5x better than when I am sober. It adds another dimension to my ability to understand physical processes. Maybe I am the oddball here........ and maybe I am the one who needs to go into the sciences..... but I was hoping that this could be one possible aspect that we could pursue when it comes to trying to demonstrate the realness of these alternative states.

Even if someone made a breakthrough while using these substances, it wouldn't prove the realness of the experience. Even if an elf said *if you do this blah blah blah blah it will be the next big breakthrough" and you do it and the elf was right. The elf is still just a subjective artifact of your amazing discovery... but it does make people turn their heads and say........ what now?

Has anyone ever tried to think about some kind of physical mathematical model for physical processes in these altered states? Gravity or the electromagnetic force? From my limited experience with ayahuasca and DMT.... the experiences always seemed to retain the same universal constructs that we are used to.... physical dimension... some aspect of time.... well time was certainly being seen from a higher dimensional aspect.. but its still the same thing....... but there is another level of understanding and seeing in addition to all your normal dimensions(sometimes distorted in weird ways like with time).


But it is there and it is perceivable. Now can you just build a model from what you can see? Newton did it..... Einstein had a dream and did it. They had the vision and they translated it onto paper w/a pen.

This isn't something that just needs to be taken on a leap of faith. That is completely counterproductive to our goals. This stuff can be written down and tested.

 

[xantus]

I feel this to be my last post on this type of thread... far too much semantics over HOW to describe the experience.. scientifically, mystically, whatever language you want to call it. we clearly speak different languages.

more DESCRIBING the experience. finding a translation is what it's all about. catalyst for language.

He said it well...
"The process begins by declaring legitimate what we have denied for so long.
Let us declare nature to be legitimate.
Re-establishing channels of direct communication with the planetary Other,
the mind behind nature, through the use of hallucinogenic plants is the best hope for dissolving the steep walls of cultural inflexibility that appear to be channeling us toward true ruin.
We need a new set of lenses to see our way into the world."

 

[olderROM]

Blah blah blah xantus. Let us also accept that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior and that we are all sinners bound for hell and that the only way to heaven is through His name Jesus Christ who is Lord the Father Savior and God of Israel. Only he can forgive us of out sins if only we let him into our heart and ask for his gracious forgiveness. YES, we can finally get somewhere my fellow Christians. Expect now that we are all Christians and DMT Elf accepting fools who have accepted a theoretical framework based on nothing....... We can work from something that is just a total lie. How useful is that? It isn't.

Sorry to be mean again. I hate being mean... but sometimes I feel it's the only way to get my point across. No offense guys! really........

And xantus I do recognize the importance of that aspect but that needs to stay in the realms of religions and cults. That stuff is something that I search for myself..... the search for 'universal truth'... meaning.... it fills a void that science sometimes doesn't.... and does especially for those who don't understand science. You are talking about a religion based on entheogens which is something I strongly gravitate to. But my Nazi Science side has its stringent demands too..... and it isn't let's take a leap of faith. That side of me demands to know the distance of the leap, the composition of the air, the strength of the gravitational field, wind speed, light, force going to be used to jump, what is below the hole, why we are jumping, where I came from, what lays ahead, who is coming with................................. on and on.... that is the side being discussed here.

Science not faith. And I am a Nazi when it comes to separating the two. We need to be very clear about that here.

Peace, Namaste, y Annyonghi Kyeseyo

 

[xantus]

"I feel it's the only way to".......yes I feel this about much of what you've said.

look at the speed of your reply. this shows how open you are to any sort of variable thought.
look at all those words that I've never even mentioned.
if you assume anything you are overstepping yourself.

if you assume anything you are overstepping yourself.

i'll keep saying it until you think about it.

I'm not talking about any sort of religion. I'm talking about interacting with a plant and noting what happens.
there is no group here. there cannot be. secondhand observation of this phenomenon is impossible. you must dive into the ocean to experience what lies beneath.

it is amusing how many boundaries you bring up. not sure what else to say.

 

[olderROM]

The quote refers to "The process begins by declaring legitimate what we have denied for so long. Let us declare nature to be legitimate." In our context, if we did that we would all agree on a metaphysical theory that has not been shown to be of substance. Just as members of religions do... What we want to do is find something more than experience. To be able to say hey..... I realized that e=mc^2..... How can we test it? That is the basic jist of what I personally need....... and it is also something that would truly catalyze the progress of mankind.

Secondhand observation is impossible..... but secondhand validation is not. Now if only we could find something that can be validated. =P That is the thorn in our side at this point. So next time someone comes to some awesome revelation while "dreaming" write it the fuck down. LOL.

 

[olderROM]

"Once again. Way to kill a thread" LOL I recon it's only a matter of time before this thread blows up again.

 

[970Codfert]

Here's what I've gathered... One side thinks it reasonable to say that we are spiritual beings, that humans have a soul, ghost in the machine, what have you and that hyperspace is indeed real.

The other side states that there is no reason to believe any experience is spiritual, since a scientist can't measure your soul with some sort of instrument or validate somehow that hyperspace (accessed through not only DMT, but through the near death experience, out of body experience, mystical experience, meditative trance, hypnotic trance, etc...)(unless we want to limit it to the DMT experience) is more than the imagination through some sort of experiment, then it is a leap of faith to say any experience(again, unless limited it to DMT) is of a spiritual nature.

In conclusion, to answer either of these questions is to answer the original question of "are the elves real?"

Correct?

I thought something concrete might draw more people to this thread and make it less intimidating.

Whether or not you've posted here, I know you're ALL interested in this and have made up your own mind.

 

[burnt]

I think you sum it up well 970.

My point is not to bash peoples spiritual beliefs that may have been encouraged by the use of psychedelic drugs. SWIM once used psychedelics specifically for that purpose. SWIM was looking for an alternative to his former beliefs in god and christianity. SWIM found that in psychedelics. But then SWIM payed really close attention to what was happening. SWIM realized SWIM was using the psychedelics to solidify a spiritual beliefs. SWIM spoke to SWIMs dead ancestors. SWIM saw god SWIM saw everything. But was any of that real? Or was it just SWIM trying to find a way to believe? Finding a way to have faith. Are the elves just another way that the brain can create spiritual satisfaction? We all want it. We all seek it. Why? Probably because most societies teach us too. We are brought up seeking some kind of spiritual satisfaction.

But now lets step back and look at anyone who has undergone a similar journey. Psychedelics can build or destroy any belief system. Many SWIMs are using psychedelics to fill a void in their faith or their belief in spirit. People want to believe in spirit they want to believe they are more then this biochemical machine. Psychedelics can make you think you are more then just some machine because you want them too.

I am fine now with accepting that I am a machine with self awareness and free will. When I think of death I am scared and I want there to be more. Its a struggle we all face. Psychedelics can numb that struggle. They can show you something that you desire so much and solidify that belief that we all want.

When SWIM first came to the realization that psychedelics were filling a spiritual void and that there was no way to no the experience was real it was kind of difficult. It was hard because that was what kept SWIMs spiritual belief alive. SWIM was always into science and then SWIM figured out that an objective scientific analysis of this experience is one way to answer whether or not anything that happens under the influence of these drugs is real. Some things are real and many things are explainable. But it takes work and time and effort to figure it out. That is something most people aren't willing to investigate. I think we as a community need to investigate it. So we avoid becoming just another religion built on nothing but faith. I see the societal benefit and value of psychedelic drugs but not to delude our selves. But rather to help us grow.

We may be more then just some biochemical machine. But tripping or meditating will not answer the question. Becuase we know our brain is capable of deluding us.

Xanthus about the schizophrenic thing. It happens often enough that schizophrenics realize they are completely deluded. And its very hard for them. But that is why they seek treatment they want it to stop. Often its like being tortured by ones own mind. Its really difficult to live like that. Some never wake up and they are often the crazy people you see running around on the streets speaking pure nonsense. Its sad and hard and its a disease of the brain. Sometimes they are genuises and can see and solve puzzles or complex mathematical problems but that is because they are gaining some function. Much like how psychedelics can enhance intelligence and problem solving skills.

Well thats all for now. Really it doesn't matter to me whether anyone listens to what I am saying. At least its been said.

 

[○]

The deeper we go with science and the quantum world, the stranger and stranger it will become..possibly stranger than the paranormal..I think.

How deep in the rabbit hole do you want to go? :?:

 

[olderROM]

All the way baby!

 

[burnt]

It is stranger then what others call paranormal. That's why its so interesting because its not only strange and fascinating but real. Learning about real things is a more practical way to widdle away ones time.

To answer your question as deep as possible haha! :shock: Without dieing or inducing physical harm of course.