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The Chemistry of Extraction

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ChemisTryptaMan

Rising Star
Merits
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Hello Nexians, I wanted to share some basic knowledge of chemistry that comes in handy when performing an extraction. There are several topics in chemistry that one should have a firm grasp on in order to understand exactly what is happening throughout the extraction process. These include:

1) Solubility

2) Partition Coefficients

3) Ionic Strength

4) Acid/Base Chemistry

Solubility:

Solubility is the extent to which a solute(anything being dissolved) can dissolve in a particular volume of solvent(the liquid holding the solutes). In a chemistry classroom what they will tell you is that "likes dissolve likes". This refers to the polarities of the molecules that one is attempting to dissolve. In general, non-polar molecules will dissolve in non-polar solvents(oils) and polar molecules will dissolve in polar solvents(water). This is why oil and water don't mix. The molecules of each are not soluble in each other, so they wont mix. The term miscibility is usually used for liquid-liquid situations, like ethanol being completely miscible with water means that they can be mixed in any proportion and it will form a homogeneous mixture. The truth of the matter is that oil and water do mix, just in such small amounts that we cant see it. As far as extraction goes, this means that there is some amount of naphtha in the water, and some amount of water in the naphtha. This is because at low ionic strengths(more on this later) most of the water molecules are neutral and do not repel the non-polar molecules as strongly as strongly as a fully charged ion in solution. Spice can exist in different forms that have different solubility in both water and naphtha. Solubility in both will increase at higher temperatures, as this is the case with most solutes and solvents. Higher temperatures mean higher solubility.

Partition Coefficients:

Partition Coefficients are a measure of how a solute will behave in a biphasic(2 layered) liquid system. These have values that are given in terms of the concentration in the non polar layer divided by the concentration in the aqueous layer. The standard solvent system which most literature values is given are for an octanol:water system. The goal when performing these extractions is to get the highest Partition Coefficient for the DMT so that most of it will end up in the non-polar layer(naphtha). This process of finding the optimum PC is different for every solute in every solvent system. We are mostly working with freebase DMT in a Naphtha: water system. We do this by attempting to decrease the solubility in the water layer while increasing the solubility in the naphtha layer. How can we do this? Well heating the entire solution will increase the solubility in both layers, to different extents, but the bottom line here is that you want the bottom layer to be cool when your pulling the spice from it, so if your going to use temperature your best option is to heat the naphtha before adding it to the cool(room temp) water and mixing as much as possible before the temperature equilibrate(which happens within seconds). There is another way to achieve our goal though, and that is by increasing the ionic strength of our aqueous layer in order to decrease the solubility of the spice in the aqueous layer. This also has the added benefit of decreasing the solubility of the water within the naphtha and the naphtha in the water, which is why adding salt results in less emulsions forming at higher ionic strengths, a more complete separation of the two layers is achieved.

Ionic Strength
:

Ionic strength is essentially a measure of how much charge is present in a solution. It has a value that is calculated by taking the concentration of every solute in solution, raising that concentration to its charge, and then adding these all together. This means that molecules with more than one unit of charge have a much greater effect on the ionic strength. Calcium and Magnesium both have a charge of +2, While sulfate and phosphate ions have varying charges based on the pH of the solution, but at the high pH's that we run the extractions at they carry a charge of -2 and -3 respectively. pH plays an important role in ionic strength for reasons we will get into momentarily. I don't like to encourage the use of distilled water, I prefer filtered water and for this reason alone, distilled water has had its ionic strength lowered to the lowest possible level intentionally, what you are buying is de-ionized water. With filtered or spring water you have had anything that might be harmful to the process removed and are left with a plethora of ions such as sodium, potassium, chloride, magnesium, calcium, and many, many more. I understand the desire to start with distilled water but from a chemists perspective it is not really necessary and may actually decrease your yield if a high enough ionic strength has not been reached.

Acid/Base Chemistry
:

Alright so this is where I want to begin with the two different forms of DMT. These are the Salt and the Freebase forms. The only difference between the two is that in the salt an extra hydrogen nucleus(proton) has been attached to the molecule at the amine(where the nitrogen is located). This makes this form have a charge of +1 at the Nitrogen. The charge is actually spread out over the the atoms surrounding the nitrogen, but most of the charge is located right on the added proton. The rest of the molecule is still very non-polar and hence still quite soluble in the naphtha, but the charge has a powerful effect on the solubility in water because water can easily dissolve charged molecules, even when they have a large non-polar region. Every molecule that can either receive or give up a proton will exist in the two different forms with different pH's determining what state that molecule is in. This switch from one form to another happens around a particular pH for each molecule. For DMT, this pH(known as it's pKa) is around 8.5. When a molecule is dissolved in a solution where the pH is equal to it's pKa, exactly 50% of the molecules exist in each form, so in the case of DMT a pH of 8.5 will cause the DMT molecules to be 50% freebase and 50% salt. Moving one pH unit higher will make the proportion !0:1(around 90%) freebase to salt. Two pH units above the pKa(10.5), and 99% of the molecules will be in freebase form. At !!.5, 3 pH units above, 99.9% will be in freebase form and so on. So a pH of twelve is really a desirable level for the extraction. This topic is also relevant to increasing ionic strength using the protein that is present in the plant material being used. A protein carries a charge of -1 at extraction pH levels, but when a protein is heated for several hours under heat in the presence of either acid or base as a catalyst, it will break apart into it's constituent amino acids, which will each have a charge of -1 at the high pH levels being used. This could potentially have a drastic effect on the final ionic strength of the aqueous layer but I have not yet tried it myself. The pKa where most amino acids gain a charge of -1 is around 10-12, so even higher pH's will ensure that a full charge is gained by every molecule where a charge can be gained. Some molecules with amine groups like DMT itself will actually lose a charge of +1 and become neutral, but since we are already working at high pH's this effect should be be negligible.

There are other topics that need to be covered, like crystallization, but really the most important thing here is that buy reducing the volume of your pulls you are raising the concentration of spice in the NPS used. When you put your pulls in the freezer you are decreasing the solubility of the spice in the NPS and forcing the crystals to crash out.

I hope this info comes in useful for those just learning the process and I am willing to answer any questions that any of you may have. I may make a more comprehensive guide including some chemdraw illustrations when I have some time.

With Love,

CTM

edit: I just want to say that this is a basic understanding of how cybs tek really works so well and so simply. In his tek he uses all this information to fine-tune his process. I highly suggest giving that one a shot if you are new to this process.
 
ChemisTryptaMan said:
any and all proteases will definitely speed up the process

I have to correct myself here, proteases are themselves proteins so at extreme ph's and temperatures they will unfold, break apart and become completely useless. Proteases could work if added to a mixture at the optimum pH levels and temperature for those proteases which are the conditions of your stomach, so the pH levels should be really low and the temp around 37C.
 
My most recent pull seemed so saturated w/ DMT I can't really imagine doing much better but I heated both layers together so I have this thought:

If the solubility of DMT increases more rapidly with temperature in naphtha than in the polar solution I feel like heating them both to a very high temperature could be as effective because it will allow for extra mixing at that temperature and lead to more DMT moving over. If the naphtha is cooling before it can contact a reasonable amount of the polar solvent that could make it ineffective, no?

I might experiment with heating up just the naphtha on later pulls when heating both yields insignificant amounts. I'd also think it'd be good to use a relative abundance of naphtha to help with mixing and heat, yeah?

Details of the pull if interested:
I salted my solution for the first time this last batch (about 85g in a 1250ml w/ about 135g of lye, there seem to be a few undissolved salt crystals) and after I did two 5-10 minute baths in recently boiling water and shook the jar 8 times, I had a very cloudy naphtha layer, cloudy to the point that my first thought was that something had gone wrong. I insulated the jar in a cooler and let things fully separate for 2 hours. It was still very cloudy and when decanting my pipette would partially clog due to crystals forming in the tip. Had a huge yield of crystals crash out at room temperature. Waiting on the results of the freeze precip, but so far I see very few crystals and wonder if by chance I got an extremely good separation of DMT crystals and NMT goo with this pull. It'd be awesome to get something that was NMT heavy enough that the dominate experience from it was that of NMT.
 
To raise the ionic strength of the acidic mixture to it's best potential should we not use phosphoric acid instead of vinegar then?

Should we add salt to the mixture before or after adding the NaOH ? Edit: I saw your answer to the question. Salt before lye.. although, I am not sure what you meant when saying "has long has it's before the MHRB".

Thank you for your help
 
I think he meant "as long as it's before the solvent"...

Also, the acid that is used also determines which molecule is formed: acetic (vinegar) makes dmt-acetate, fumaric makes fumarate etc... Factors to take into account here are the stability of the "new" molecule and some of its other properties (solubility) in order for it to be interesting to work with in an extraction...

I have no clue in this regard as far as dmt-phosphate is concerned...

PLUR

Ps Please correct me if I'm wrong ;)
 
dooby said:
I think he meant "as long as it's before the solvent"...

Also, the acid that is used also determines which molecule is formed: acetic (vinegar) makes dmt-acetate, fumaric makes fumarate etc... Factors to take into account here are the stability of the "new" molecule and some of its other properties (solubility) in order for it to be interesting to work with in an extraction...

I have no clue in this regard as far as dmt-phosphate is concerned...

PLUR

Ps Please correct me if I'm wrong ;)


Ok, that makes more sense..

Well I first got the idea of using phosphoric acid from this tek : The DMT Handbook 201208 | PDF | Sodium Hydroxide | Solubility

It mentions the bonds beings stronger.. Which would be logical considering the charge is hier than what we would obtain from vinegar. Although, I'm wondering how this affects the quantity one would get out of said plant..

Would it cause more dmt to precipitate into the freebase form after adding lye? I'd like to know and understand the cause to effect...

Edit : info about acids to use it at page 7

Thanks for your help
 
I have only a very limited understanding of chemistry, but if the phosphate forms stronger bonds, there would be no gain because you will have to break up these bonds anyway to "release" the freebase molecule when the base is added...

Also, looking into any possible "contra-indications" could be very useful, you never know if phosphoric acid and sodium hydroxide create, for instance, an emulsion (or worse)...

As soon as the base is added in sufficient amounts, the molecule will be freebased and the acid will turn into a salt (if I remember correctly) and the only use for that salt, if any, is not to interfere with the extraction process or create unwanted side-reactions or something...

If you're lucky someone more chem-savvy will chime in ;)

So far for my 2 cents...

PLUR

Ps: Solubility is also a huge factor here, for example you don't want the salt being formed after the base is added to be soluble in your non polar solvent or it will end up in your yield...
 
dooby said:
I have only a very limited understanding of chemistry, but if the phosphate forms stronger bonds, there would be no gain because you will have to break up these bonds anyway to "release" the freebase molecule when the base is added...

Also, looking into any possible "contra-indications" could be very useful, you never know if phosphoric acid and sodium hydroxide create, for instance, an emulsion (or worse)...

As soon as the base is added in sufficient amounts, the molecule will be freebased and the acid will turn into a salt (if I remember correctly) and the only use for that salt, if any, is not to interfere with the extraction process or create unwanted side-reactions or something...

If you're lucky someone more chem-savvy will chime in ;)

So far for my 2 cents...

PLUR

Ps: Solubility is also a huge factor here, for example you don't want the salt being formed after the base is added to be soluble in your non polar solvent or it will end up in your yield...

Yeah, I looked up for contra-indication and safety in regards to the chemical.. Seems safe..

Dmt-phosphate is a salt I believe btw.. Acid + alkaloid -> salt

After adding lye is the freebase form..

Thanks for helping... I'll try to see if I can get more detail on why dmt phosphate would be better according to the tek and post results here..
 
Ok ! So as far has my research goes dmt-phosphate seems to be more stable than dmt-acetate. I.e when doing ze acid cook dmt-phosphate has less chance of going back into the freebase form and then being broken down than dmt-acetate if the solution is boiling at a high temperature.. Thats only my conclusion base on the premise that dmt-phosphate forms stronger bonds => dmt-phosphate is more stable => dmt-phosphate more heat resistant => we can do acid cook at hier temperatures => being able to cook at hier temperatures is a plus.

So it would seem phosphoric acid has this advantage over vinegar...

I would appreciate if a chemist could confirm this..
 
This is great info, very cocomprehensive information to begin with for the layman, thanks op!

My buddy will be using cybs tek when he runs into more materials. Right now he has 300g of acrb sitting for days in a similiar amount of calcium hydroxide. This was acidified first of course. Would adding some salt help the process at all before doing the pulls? Ive seen people say salt wont help with this kind of tek but i dont see how it wouldnt and it wont hurt right?

Wishing there was material to try cybs tej right now. Actually have some leftover acidified bark leftover that wouldnt fit in the jar for this dry tek hes doing. Dont know the weight on it though :(. Might try out cybs tek on it anyway just to see what happens..

Once again, great post man!
 
Sorry for resurrecting this thread but i have a question about this subject, specifically talkin bout Ionic Strength.

Some time ago I did a few acid/base extractions of other alkaloids, using diethyl-ether as the solvent, unfortunately they didn't work out really well.

ChemisTryptaMan, I read what you said about miscibility, about having some naphta in the water and some water in the naphta and how you can fix this problem by adding salt to the water to increase Ionic Strength.

I now suspect my previous a/b extractions didn't work because of some ether dissolving into the water.
Diethyl-ether is a prevalently non-polar solvent, however it has two free electron pairs on the oxygen so it can form hydrogen bonds with a protic polar solvent(like water) making it at least a little miscible with the water.

If some ether dissolves in the water it could prevent the alkaloid to go in the nonpolar layer, I guess...

So here the question: Could I add salt to the water and increase ionic strength to prevent the ether dissolving in the water and fuck up my extraction? Should I rather just change solvent because ether is not good enough for a/b DMT extraction?

Any insight is appreciated,

Thank You!!!8)
 
ektor said:
Could I add salt to the water and increase ionic strength to prevent the ether dissolving in the water and fuck up my extraction?
Adding salt will help. You don't really want too much ether dissolving in the water. It's not about the ether dissolving in the water.
Should I rather just change solvent because ether is not good enough for a/b DMT extraction?
I'd save the ether for huffing. But that's just me being degenerate. We don't hear much about ether extractions round here so it might be interesting. Just so long as you stay safe.
 
downwardsfromzero said:
ektor said:
Could I add salt to the water and increase ionic strength to prevent the ether dissolving in the water and fuck up my extraction?
Adding salt will help. You don't really want too much ether dissolving in the water. It's not about the ether dissolving in the water.
Should I rather just change solvent because ether is not good enough for a/b DMT extraction?
I'd save the ether for huffing. But that's just me being degenerate. We don't hear much about ether extractions round here so it might be interesting. Just so long as you stay safe.

We don't hear about ether (diethyl? ) extractions here because it's not safe in a home extraction setting. Ether can have a real nasty temperment.

Thanks CMT, I think you just raised the bar a bit:thumb_up:
 
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