The Eternal Wheel

[ShadedSelf]

So, Ive had this thought/feeling in the back of my head for a while now that I find somewhat distressing.

This sensation of being stuck in this eternal loop, I think about all the suffering that we go trhough, and I feel like I know we will go trough it forever again, stuck, eternally, though the ups and downs and ups and downs, I feel homesick, tired.

I feel like this carries into my day to day, the game is not fun anymore, yet I have to keep playing it, forever.

I know Im probably missing the point, but I felt like sharing.

 

[Palmer Eldritch]

This sensation of being stuck in this eternal loop, I think about all the suffering that we go trhough, and I feel like I know we will go trough it forever again, stuck, eternally, though the ups and downs and ups and downs, I feel homesick, tired.

You don't have to be stuck in this eternal loop. What you're experiencing is the result of attachment to self.

the game is not fun anymore, yet I have to keep playing it, forever.

You don't have to keep playing it. You can find a way to separate yourself from the false layers of self one by one. This won't always be a pleasant process, but the result is complete nonattachment. These things that bother you now seem meaningless to the enlightened person. Indeed, you will not even recognize the reality of these things.

Your dissatisfaction can be the fuel, but is it fuel for a radical, unimaginable change? Or perhaps it's simply fuel you to shed your skin and find new layers of identity that lessen the suffering?

 

[OneIsEros]

Indian religions and their descendants throughout Asia tend to be the ones that reckoned with cyclicality as an existential, religious problem the most. I’d have a look at those and see if any of them speaks to you.

If you want to make a radical change and put all your focus on getting out of the cycle, Wat Pah Nanachat in Thailand is one of the most intensive practice communities you’ll ever run into, and they take English speakers.

But, if something like that seems appealing on the surface, be sure to ask yourself: cycles in what sense? The above group means it in terms of literal life after death rebirth processes, as do just about all the Indian religions and their descendants. Zen is a notable exception; Zen people generally don’t care too much about rebirth.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Maybe the silver lining is when the soul transmigrates, we forget what previous incarnations were like, so the game seems new.

While there are many ideas out there about how to break such cycles, no one seems to really know what's going on, and sometimes we could be swapping one delusion for another, more comfortable one or even meaningful perhaps. Not sure any of that is a bad thing, just something to realize.

Accepting our lack of control, trying to remain compassionate yet unattached (particularly with regard to our own internal feelings and emotions), and being with it may be your best options. Even shifting layers of perspective to see things in a new light.

But that's all easier said than done.

What distresses you the most about it?

Do you think that the nature of such suffering remains the same in experience?

What do you think you can do about this?

One love

 

[ShadedSelf]

Ive been spending some time with children for the past few years, its certainly refreshing, for them its all new and exciting, a leaf full of water, a dead slug, life is playful again.


I feel like you guys get the tone that I want to change something, but I dont know if there is anything I want to change, as a matter of fact Im quite tired of trying to change things. :lol:


I dont think there is much to be done about it Void, if life is fundamentally an endless cycle, what am I to do about it?
I assume its a matter of perspective.
Its the feeling that even if it its a matter of perspective, we are going to forget that again, not so much on a personal level, but as on droptlets from the sea kind of thing, which is sort of glass half empty way to look at it I guess.

Ive been carrying this for a while, I guess it was time to let it out, Ive actually been feeling quite refreshed this morning.

 

[Tomtegubbe]

I say the solution is to enjoy the ride as much as possible. It's a skill rather than a trick. We are bombarded by negative energies we assume our own and make us feel miserable. However, the plants have the ability to make us see what's behind our thoughts and emotions and help to purge the negative energy out. From there on however we need to fill ourselves with what makes us feel content, grateful and joyful. It's not a trick but a skill that takes time to develop. So instead of focusing on the "ultimate", focusing on the particular can be an answer that brings satisfaction.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I feel like you guys get the tone that I want to change something, but I dont know if there is anything I want to change, as a matter of fact Im quite tired of trying to change things.

Definitely fair, you did say you just wanted to share, so it may have been helpful to just let it out. I think we all assumed potential request for help based off you having said the experience is distressing.

I dont think there is much to be done about it Void, if life is fundamentally an endless cycle, what am I to do about it?
I assume its a matter of perspective.
Its the feeling that even if it its a matter of perspective, we are going to forget that again, not so much on a personal level, but as on droptlets from the sea kind of thing, which is sort of glass half empty way to look at it I guess.

Maybe taking this to heart can be as interesting for you as it has been for me

I say the solution is to enjoy the ride as much as possible. It's a skill rather than a trick. We are bombarded by negative energies we assume our own and make us feel miserable. However, the plants have the ability to make us see what's behind our thoughts and emotions and help to purge the negative energy out. From there on however we need to fill ourselves with what makes us feel content, grateful and joyful. It's not a trick but a skill that takes time to develop. So instead of focusing on the "ultimate", focusing on the particular can be an answer that brings satisfaction.

Thanks for sharing this. It's a good reminder to enjoy in general more.

One love

 

[OneIsEros]

Being too tired to want to change things is one thing, but it does sort of sound like you have some pain you’d prefer not to have, if it were a matter of just clicking a button. Is that a fair assessment?

 

[ShadedSelf]

I have, for the past few days, been thinking about going for a deeper journey Void, so maybe I am looking for some change.


There can definately be an overlap between the feeling I was letting out and some more personal, encysted stuff.

I do certainly feel stuck on a personal level, not really feeling that this is the life I would like to live, so many things I would like to change... just to end up disillusioned when none of them happen.
At this point just the thought of making some change drains me of the litte energy I have available.


Oh, Eros, there are so many kinds of pain I wish I could get rid of, so many pleasures I would embrace for eternity, you are not wrong in that sense.

I feel like at times it just gets worse by trying to get rid of it, others it really needs you to go down there, pry yourself open, and take the roots out.
For the most part, Ive learned to welcome it.

 

[OneIsEros]

I’ll admit, this sounds like the kinda depression that might be responsive to Western psychiatrists and possibly antidepressants. That “tired/futile” sort of descriptor where things sound kinda “numb” - someone in the mental health field explained to me once that while antidepressants are overprescribed, they kind of shine at dealing with the “numb” levels in depression. I have no idea whether that is true, that is just something that a person told me once, also have no idea whether you’re “depressed” in any clinical sense, what your medical background is, whether you might have tried that…… but, for some people that route is helpful. It’s also been explained to me that it’s not a permanent solution, but like MDMA therapy does for a few hours, it can offer a few months or years of a grace period in which to be empowered to alter some things in life that led to a place where things get so futile…..

Just wanted to throw it out there, as an aside from such sage advice as doing powerful hallucinogens or entering monastic life or contemplating psychological attachment, as I and others have offered All potentially very good ideas, each and every one of which personally helped me - but, there’s also the less weird and possibly from some perspectives more responsible route too (emphasis on the “from some perspectives”)

-edit- I once asked a Zen priest, who is also a professional psychotherapist, whether he thought the Buddha was depressed. He emphatically said no, because the Buddha was overwhelmingly energetic and driven to accomplish his mission. There was no “futility/can’t get out of bed” sense that is part of his story’s description. There’s a certain sense of horror at the cyclicality of samsara, but not depression. He named his son “Rahula”, “fetter” (“ball and chain”) - which indicates that he wasn’t so much slumped into life as claustrophobic and intensely driven to resolve the problem of cyclical existence. Depression might not be the correct fuel to deal with samsara. In fact, “virya”, energy, is a crucial perfection which must be cultivated for practice to succeed. I note all of this simply because this post was placed in the “mysticism” section, and it may be worth pondering.

I once met a German monk in Thailand who came to ordain due to his dissatisfaction with life, but he didn’t seem to have been so much “depressed” as disillusioned. He had found romantic connection, a career, all the things that were supposed to bring fulfillment, and his sense had been “this is it?”. He was very happy and fulfilled with his choice to become a monastic.

 

[ShadedSelf]

So, I did end up going for a deeper journey, I didnt have the intention to focus on any of this in particular but some of it did inevitably come up.

I believe what I was missing is gratitude.
While the game itself is endless there is some sort of freedom in it, its hard to explain, but the possibilityto appreciate every moment seems to be a fundamental part of the game.

 

[Voidmatrix]

So, I did end up going for a deeper journey, I didnt have the intention to focus on any of this in particular but some of it did inevitably come up.

So... how was it?

I believe what I was missing is gratitude.

While I'm the guy that questions the statement "life is good," (is it? do we tell ourselves that just so we can handle it better? Isn't it (life) what it is, ie, neither good nor bad?), I do deeply feel that we can have gratitude for what we do have and experience in life, especially that which heals, sources, fulfills, and sustains us. I'm glad that you found the gem you were likely seeking.

While the game itself is endless there is some sort of freedom in it, its hard to explain, but the possibilityto appreciate every moment seems to be a fundamental part of the game.

Such an absurdist statement Beautiful.

One love

 

[ShadedSelf]

So... how was it?

Its been the first time in a while that I actually feel like a get some sort of insight out of psychedelic use, which seems I am now grateful for.

I spent some time playing the game, it wasnt a particularly visual or sensory experience, mostly an exploration of a more balanced and harmonious state, still illusury and bound by its own set of rules, albeit more playful/divine ones.
I meditated/focused on this vision, it, or I, was a pyramid, a pyramid made of threads of energy/light, it looked like as if it was covered in a pink-ish flowy energy-woven fabric, except for the corners, those looked like blocks of gold.

In a sense it felt like I was letting energy flow through me as efficiently as possible, at some point I though about keeping 1% of that energy for me, but it seemed unwise. Body and mind are no longer in charge.
I felt sort of isolated from the rest of the universe, yet still doing my part, the path is ever inward and onward. My trips seem to be completely devoid of entities too.

It felt familiar, this places usually feel like home to me.
It was a nice review of the rules of the game, things like will, faith, gratitude, the mystery and the illusions all fell into place.

I do feel like there is some amount of responsibility to sort of put all of that into practice, so I have to watch out for that.

 

[Beluga1]

So, Ive had this thought/feeling in the back of my head for a while now that I find somewhat distressing.

This sensation of being stuck in this eternal loop, I think about all the suffering that we go trhough, and I feel like I know we will go trough it forever again, stuck, eternally, though the ups and downs and ups and downs, I feel homesick, tired.

I feel like this carries into my day to day, the game is not fun anymore, yet I have to keep playing it, forever.

I know Im probably missing the point, but I felt like sharing.

God would create a better world if he could. This is the best he could come up with, and its because God is like us (is us). He is compelled to want power, sex, love, friendship, wealth, achievement, a good meal, beauty, ect. All of which extract a price from other living things, which are also he/us. God, like us, doesnt have control over what feels good and what does not. We can deny our desires, and try to develop detachment, but eventually the boredom of that becomes too painful and lonely to endure as well, which is why God creates worlds in the first place. Boredom/loneliness/stagnation of Oneness/potential> created worlds and differentiated existence with all its horrors> Back to Oneness. It’s a bummer I think if you are honest about it.

 

[ShadedSelf]

So you think there is something fundamentally sad about the process?
Kinda sounds like there is some sort of incompleteness, even oneness is not enough.

Its been a while since I posted this, I still think the cyclical nature you describe is spot on and there might indeed be something sad or disappointing about it, but I feel like there is something more to it. Ive been practicing gratitude to the best of my ability, and even if life might not be very exciting its certaintly pretty chill.

Oh boy, did we ever create a wild ride for ourselves.

 

[Voidmatrix]

@Beluga1 Considering the supposed limitlessness of what we call God, don't you think your description limits that idea of God a bit?

One love

 

[Beluga1]

So you think there is something fundamentally sad about the process?
Kinda sounds like there is some sort of incompleteness, even oneness is not enough.

Its been a while since I posted this, I still think the cyclical nature you describe is spot on and there might indeed be something sad or disappointing about it, but I feel like there is something more to it. Ive been practicing gratitude to the best of my ability, and even if life might not be very exciting its certaintly pretty chill.

Oh boy, did we ever create a wild ride for ourselves.

I think there is something fundamentally sad about it. I posted another thread here where I describe in more detail. Of course, there may be other types of worlds, and other types of life that are less painful, but there would be good things that are not possible in such a world, if such a world were even possible. For example, in a world where none suffer, where everyone had enough to eat, and food did not involve eating other sentient beings, and resources were abundant, and well regulated, and somehow sex was not a competition, many of the things we value would have no meaning. Friendship or love doesnt mean much without challenge. The closest friendships you see in man often develop under extreme stress such as in war. Without the need for loyalty, sacrifice, ect for survival, friendships are usually shallow and cheap. Romantic love is by nature exclusive, and requires competition and challenge to be valued. Achievement involves competition, winners and losers, ect. Power involves differential distribution of such, and hierarchy. Water is bland and boring when there is plenty of it, but a glass of it is better than sex to a man who has been dying of thirst in the desert. Pain is required for pleasure and meaning, at least as far as we understand it, and I believe this is an inherent quality of God as well. As above, so below.

@Beluga1 Considering the supposed limitlessness of what we call God, don't you think your description limits that idea of God a bit?

One love

Perhaps. Then again, don’t you think your idea of God as All Good limits the idea of God as well? The only evidence we have as to the nature of God is through his creation. Obviously suffering exists here and it is not all sunshine and roses. The creation reflects the creator. For those experienced in psychedelics, if we are accessing other parts of the universal mind, I think it is clear that the spiritual world contains both terror and bliss, good and evil, as well. I also think God likes stories. He likes the hero’s journey. Would you want to play a game or watch a movie about a bunch of blissful monks sitting around in meditative bliss? I dont think God does either. And of course any attempt to express the nature of the infinite is going to be inadequate coming from a limited, differentiated node of human consciousness, but you can learn a lot about the properties of the ocean by studying a single drop of water. If we (and the world around us) are all temporarily differentiated aspects of God’s consciousness, as suggested by the Sufis, Kabbalists, Upanishad authors, hermeticists, psychedelic explorers, and many others, then it would stand to reason in my opinion that we, as parts, are reflective of the whole. This is what is meant by being “made in God’s image.” The microcosm contains the essence of the macrocosm. As above, so below.

And there may very well be limitations to the “infinite.” God appears to be limited in his ability to find contentment as being a unified whole of potential, alone in the void. Creation itself, the fact that there is something instead of nothing, suggests that God as source alone, is not enough. There is a compulsion to create. That in itself suggests that God requires movement, growth, change, discovery, or at least the experience of such. God is limited in that he appears to have needs and drives that cannot be satisfied without creation. If he was not limited in this way, then there would be no need for worlds or differentiated life.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Any conception of God from something that isn't God would limit God. That said, I haven't shared my thoughts on God for that reason.

There's plenty of things and properties about the ocean a drop of water would not cover. As an example, one would need another drop in order to see how they interact.

And I'm familiar with the all encompassing ideals from those traditions. The crux is that those are paradigms and philophies that could have errors or misteps, have certain ideas for certain purposes (like quelling the minds of the masses into homogenous groupings based on behaviors and values), or not be as exhaustive as we like to think.

How much of what we share is based in experience, based in understanding, based in realization, or based in regurgitation?

For you, how does what you call creation show evidence of God?

I notice that you're pigeon holing what God "wants" and "needs" in an anthropomorphic way. Isn't it feasible that God does things without a need? Is the idea for a need really just a reflection of us, as humans. If God is in all things and everything is a reflection of God then that includes things without any sort of "need."

One love

 

[ShadedSelf]

So, you think existance is fundamentally unbalanced, there is more darkness than light, and any created world or experience is a futile attempt to try to run away from this intrinsic fact?

There is an unsolvable and unbearable gap at the core of existance.

In my language that alse translates to: "We are doomed".
Is that how it feels?

 

[Beluga1]

Any conception of God from something that isn't God would limit God. That said, I haven't shared my thoughts on God for that reason.

There's plenty of things and properties about the ocean a drop of water would not cover. As an example, one would need another drop in order to see how they interact.

And I'm familiar with the all encompassing ideals from those traditions. The crux is that those are paradigms and philophies that could have errors or misteps, have certain ideas for certain purposes (like quelling the minds of the masses into homogenous groupings based on behaviors and values), or not be as exhaustive as we like to think.

How much of what we share is based in experience, based in understanding, based in realization, or based in regurgitation?

For you, how does what you call creation show evidence of God?

I notice that you're pigeon holing what God "wants" and "needs" in an anthropomorphic way. Isn't it feasible that God does things without a need? Is the idea for a need really just a reflection of us, as humans. If God is in all things and everything is a reflection of God then that includes things without any sort of "need."

One love

Of course whatever I or any other human theorizes about the nature of God is going to be inadequate and incomplete, but if we cannot gain any insight or understanding, if there is no difference between the understanding of man and the understanding of a worm, then why learn or search at all? I think God likes growth and evolution, and I think part of what we do here is to progress in knowledge and understanding. Of course God already knows everything as Source that he discovers anew in differentiation, so “spiritual growth” is not strictly necessary, but as I said, I think God likes stories. Books aren’t enjoyable to read if you already know the ending and read the cliff’s notes. Video games aren’t fun to play if you start with all the cheat codes. Sometimes God likes to experience life as a lion, and the single-minded focus and thrill of the hunt, without self conscious guilt, long term thinking, or preoccupation. This experience requires the mind to be limited to that of lion’s intellect. Sometimes God likes to experience innocent love, which requires the limited understanding of a young person who does not fully understand biological sexual selection processes (which are necessary for the experience, but which take away the magic if you know the mechanics). Limitation is necessary for differentiated experience, but we also want to progress in the game to greater understanding, greater power, ect. We dont want to be lions or naive kids in love forever. Part of the game appears to be evolution of knowledge and understanding, and I dont think just saying “God is incomprehensible, its presumptuous to try and understand the infinite” is conducive to growth. God as a differentiated being can come to understand itself both as an individuated unit, and as the whole, perhaps not completely, but he can get closer and closer. I might be wrong, but I dont think so. You obviously don’t think I’m entirely wrong either, or your wouldnt be here, searching, trying to understand more. And in my mind, the best way to try and understand God is to try and understand ourselves, as we are part of him.

In regards to the traditions being incomplete, or covered over with dogma, rules of societal organization, manipulation of the masses, ect., of course they are. I find it interesting though that at their mystical core, they all seem to share the same basic premise that many psychonauts arrive at, which is that God is One, and all is Mind, and we are a part of it.

As far as how does creation show evidence of God, that is a complicated question. I think the mind shows evidence of God. Consciousness is not necessary in a materialistic universe. AI is not conscious so far as we know, but it can write brilliant essays, on almost any topic, in almost any literary style. AI conducts war games, and will soon be strategically more sound than experienced human generals. Chess computers can wallop human grand masters. Most intellectual functions can now, or will soon be, be able to be performed by machines, machines without consciousness. Bots can reply to posts and have conversations, without ever being aware of themselves. You dont need to be aware to act out programming, as AI and robotics, and NPCs in video games have already demonstrated, albeit in a currently relatively simplistic way. Evolution has no need for consciousness, and yet it exists. That to me suggests that consciousness may be more than an emergent property of dead matter. It may be fundamental. That is probably the best evidence I have of the fundamental nature of mind. Is it proof? No, of course not. But it is suggestive, at least to me. Psychedelics of course have provided the direct experience of mind appearing to transcend the brain, which is also not proof, but to me has been suggestive.

When I said in my previous posts that creation suggests something about the nature of God and his compulsion or need to create, I am already assuming the premise that God exists, is the All consciousness, and that we and everything else are a part of that. That premise is not proven, but to me, makes the most logical sense as to why things are as they are, and why consciousness exists. Most mystical traditions have arrived at similar conclusions, as I mentioned earlier. To explain why, you could write books of philosophical arguments. If you take this premise as true however, you can start to look within your own mind in order to ascertain the greater mind, of which it is a part.

If God does things without a need, without some driving, compulsive, causal principle, then it would be different than anything we see in ourselves or in God’s creation. If this is true, then we are very different from God, not just in scale, but in essence. I dont think we can be that different in our fundamentals if we are made of God. Parts always reflect aspects of the whole in everything we know of. I dont know why consciousness would be different.