You must be joking. Picric acid is pretty nasty stuff and its use carries the risk of potential hazards!tryfex said:
What is the rationale for using picric acid? Is it the only acid you can find?!?!?!
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The FASA Method: A Summary - DMT Fumarate and Beyond
- Thread starter Entropymancer
- Start date
What is the rationale for using picric acid? Is it the only acid you can find?!?!?!
dmt-n-oxide is soluble in acetone. but SWIM does not understand how this is correlates with the Zn reduction.
Otiliya
Rising Star
It just seems too good to be true! DMT N-Oxide is turned into a DMT N-Oxide Fumarate salt? That means there is no need for acidifying MHRB and reducing the DMT N-Oxide with Zn. SWIM is concerned about DMT N-Oxide due to recent finding that there is almost another 75% more actives to be pulled(STB + Naptha) from SWIMs bark thanks to Zn powder reduction. It must be old. Many thanks to 69ron's contributions.
Is it DMT N-Oxide Fumarate or converted to DMT Fumarate? I suspect, pharma wise it makes no difference as long as it is a salt...
Is it DMT N-Oxide Fumarate or converted to DMT Fumarate? I suspect, pharma wise it makes no difference as long as it is a salt...
panoramix
Rising Star
i was wondering if i can use citric acid for this becouse fumaret acid is hard to get here
im going to try a nice experement.
i whant to do the BLAB tek without the d-limo (becouse cant get it in the NL for a nice price)
and use naptha instead than the rest of the FASA on it.
and than make it freebase agean.
to get very nice xtals
so the big question is can i use a other acid than fumaret acid.
thenkx
im going to try a nice experement.
i whant to do the BLAB tek without the d-limo (becouse cant get it in the NL for a nice price)
and use naptha instead than the rest of the FASA on it.
and than make it freebase agean.
to get very nice xtals
so the big question is can i use a other acid than fumaret acid.
thenkx
elphologist1
Rising Star
As far as I know, the reason why fumaric acid is used is because it creates one of the few salts of DMT that is not hygroscopic (absorbing water from the air). You can make DMT citrate or other salts, but getting them to dry is likely to be a problem. I made the hydrochloride using a tiny bit of DMT freebase residue I had left in the bottom of a container. I dried it with a desicant, and yet within a minute after I took it out of the container with the desicant it became wet and stuck to the container I put it in. Within an hour it looked like drops of water. And this was in a very low humidity environment. I can imagine doing this when it was humid. Other salts like the citrate or the hydrochloide are not going to be harmful or anything, but it will be hard to make use of the product.
elphologist
elphologist
If you are going to convert to a freebase afterwards then citric acid will be fine, but as the reasons state in the above post, it's just a little bit annoying to work with.
Wrong.elphologist1 said:
Fumaric acid is used because dmt-fumarate is completely insoluble in acetone. dmt-citrate on the other hand is somewhat soluble in acetone. This means that the FASA precipitates can be washed with acetone to remove any xylene/toluene residues as well as any lipid impurities to give fairly pure alkaloids. A CASA approach would have you washing away citrate salts.
Of course the hygroscopicity of the other dmt salts is totally irrelevant when someone plans to convert them to freebase
panoramix
Rising Star
hay thenks for the info all i did try some citric it works it make xtals but they lock a bit as it what set above the wil not dry whel tomoro i wil have my sodium carbonate en lock i can freebase it i also ordert some fumaric acid so no citric anymore. thenkx for all the info i lurn alot on the Nexus
greeder pano
greeder pano
TheAppleCore
Rising Star
So, I salted some DMT freebase in solution with anhydrous acetone by adding FASA. This produced some large, gorgeous, clear, crystals which formed on the bottom the the jam jar in which I performed the procedure. I poured the leftover acetone from the jar, and left the jar open for some time to allow the crystals to fully dry.
A strange thing happened, however -- my pretty crystals, as soon as the acetone evaporated, started to melt. Now they're reduced to a clear goo. Totally impossible to work with (can't transfer it to & from my scale). Any ideas?
EDIT: They're slowly crystallizing. It's been around 12 hours, and about 10% has crystallized. My only explanation for this is that I didn't quite fully dehydrate the acetone that I was working with, and as the acetone evaporated more quickly than the water, the concentration of H2O in the solution became greater and greater until reaching a point at which the fumarate began to dissolve.
A strange thing happened, however -- my pretty crystals, as soon as the acetone evaporated, started to melt. Now they're reduced to a clear goo. Totally impossible to work with (can't transfer it to & from my scale). Any ideas?
EDIT: They're slowly crystallizing. It's been around 12 hours, and about 10% has crystallized. My only explanation for this is that I didn't quite fully dehydrate the acetone that I was working with, and as the acetone evaporated more quickly than the water, the concentration of H2O in the solution became greater and greater until reaching a point at which the fumarate began to dissolve.
i got problems my brothers and sisters.....big, fat extraction issues...
here's the poop as it stands thus far:
1. did a STB tek with 1/2 lb. mimosa bark. mixed with a little less than a gallon of water and 1 lb. lye. dissolved lye in water in one jug then added it to the powder in another. what i'm left with is a gallon jug 3/4 full of soy sauce. perfect.
2. didn't do any defats....just added warm naphtha (200ml) and pulled. put in jar, straight in freezer. like you do...
3. did step 2 one more time in a separate pull jar and placed in freezer next to jar #1. again, totally according to plan.
i wanted to see how much spice would precip out because i was starting to think i had purchased some bunk bark. i found a special online you see....6 lbs for $250. i went for it hoping for the best. it arrived in 12 half-pound bags....how cool is that?? i figured it was a sign for me to diddle around with various teks to find the 'perfect' one...
i did two previous A/B teks and got horrible results. i think i'm just an STB guy at heart...
anyways, this third time i thought i'd go with what i know to see if it was the tek or the bark that was not working.
couple hours later i peek in the freezie and there appears to be a good amount of magic crashing out. HOORAY!!
so...here's where things get funky... :?
i'm running low on fumarate, so instead of going for a third and fourth naphtha pull, i decide to do two 200 ml xylene pulls to get everything out and convert it to fumarate. i do the pulls (piss yellow) and proceed to do a sodium carbonate wash on them. two sodium carb washes and one water wash (about 50 ml each go).
i add 2 grams of fumaric acid to 200ml acetone to make a super-saturated FASA and i add about 50 ml. to the cleaned xylene.
poof. cloudy. perfect.
i shake the bejeezus out of it and wait to see the magic crystals appear.
nothing. :shock:
i add a little more FASA.
exact same deal. :?
like the moron i can be, i say screw it and add the whole lot to the xylene and shake it like a polaroid picture only to have bupkiss. nada. zilch. the big bagel...
NOW THEN: i KNOW i didn't snatch all of the magic out of 1/2 pound of MHRB with just two 200ml naphtha pulls. i KNOW in my heart that there is a bunch of spice in that xylene....after two hours, the jar has a little bit of oily yellow sludge on the sides but nary a single fumarate crystal. what do i do? is there a way to get the FASA out of the xylene and just try to evap the xylene down?
are there any tricks i can do to make this tragedy come good?
i'm prayin' over here....:roll:
WITH THE DEEPEST LOVE AND GRATITUDE!!
here's the poop as it stands thus far:
1. did a STB tek with 1/2 lb. mimosa bark. mixed with a little less than a gallon of water and 1 lb. lye. dissolved lye in water in one jug then added it to the powder in another. what i'm left with is a gallon jug 3/4 full of soy sauce. perfect.
2. didn't do any defats....just added warm naphtha (200ml) and pulled. put in jar, straight in freezer. like you do...
3. did step 2 one more time in a separate pull jar and placed in freezer next to jar #1. again, totally according to plan.
i wanted to see how much spice would precip out because i was starting to think i had purchased some bunk bark. i found a special online you see....6 lbs for $250. i went for it hoping for the best. it arrived in 12 half-pound bags....how cool is that?? i figured it was a sign for me to diddle around with various teks to find the 'perfect' one...
i did two previous A/B teks and got horrible results. i think i'm just an STB guy at heart...
anyways, this third time i thought i'd go with what i know to see if it was the tek or the bark that was not working.couple hours later i peek in the freezie and there appears to be a good amount of magic crashing out. HOORAY!!
so...here's where things get funky... :?
i'm running low on fumarate, so instead of going for a third and fourth naphtha pull, i decide to do two 200 ml xylene pulls to get everything out and convert it to fumarate. i do the pulls (piss yellow) and proceed to do a sodium carbonate wash on them. two sodium carb washes and one water wash (about 50 ml each go).
i add 2 grams of fumaric acid to 200ml acetone to make a super-saturated FASA and i add about 50 ml. to the cleaned xylene.
poof. cloudy. perfect.
i shake the bejeezus out of it and wait to see the magic crystals appear.
nothing. :shock:
i add a little more FASA.
exact same deal. :?
like the moron i can be, i say screw it and add the whole lot to the xylene and shake it like a polaroid picture only to have bupkiss. nada. zilch. the big bagel...
NOW THEN: i KNOW i didn't snatch all of the magic out of 1/2 pound of MHRB with just two 200ml naphtha pulls. i KNOW in my heart that there is a bunch of spice in that xylene....after two hours, the jar has a little bit of oily yellow sludge on the sides but nary a single fumarate crystal. what do i do? is there a way to get the FASA out of the xylene and just try to evap the xylene down?
are there any tricks i can do to make this tragedy come good?
i'm prayin' over here....:roll:
WITH THE DEEPEST LOVE AND GRATITUDE!!
OriginalFace
Rising Star
Well bro', you're startin' to perpetuate the dumb jock myth 
The big problem with FASA is the requirement for anhydrous acetone. When the weather is humid, acetone sucks moisture from the air like a bikee sucks water from a bottle before a sprint.
A little bit of water,in the acetone, will dissolve a lot of spice fumarate so the solution(sic) is to add more water.
An excess of water will pull all the spice fumarate from the xylene, along with the acetone, and will produce two layers.
The top layer will be mostly clean xylene containing some plant fats and oils, the bottom layer will contain spicy fumarate and acetone.
Separate and evaporate to collect the goodies.
good luck, OF
The big problem with FASA is the requirement for anhydrous acetone. When the weather is humid, acetone sucks moisture from the air like a bikee sucks water from a bottle before a sprint.
A little bit of water,in the acetone, will dissolve a lot of spice fumarate so the solution(sic) is to add more water.
An excess of water will pull all the spice fumarate from the xylene, along with the acetone, and will produce two layers.
The top layer will be mostly clean xylene containing some plant fats and oils, the bottom layer will contain spicy fumarate and acetone.
Separate and evaporate to collect the goodies.
good luck, OF
OriginalFace
Rising Star
Speaking of dumb, I just noticed that you posted last week.
Hope my info is still useful.
OF
Hope my info is still useful.
OF
I as well am preparing to convert freebase into fumerate. I would strongly advise cleaning your freebase before proceeding. It may look white and pretty now, but IME the majority gonna be a dark mass when you dissolve it for recrxtling. safe that crap for smoking later, lol
I've a few questions. I've got very pure dmt freebase from and A/B extract cleaned over with heptane, crystal clear needles, like a beaker full of silk spiderweb needles. Got my anny acetone and fumaric acid. Question is I see the step that says after you have your dmt fumerate crystals...to was with more acetone. Could someone elaborate on this. In my case, what am I cleaning the fumerate of? Any excess fumaric acid I suppose?
I've a few questions. I've got very pure dmt freebase from and A/B extract cleaned over with heptane, crystal clear needles, like a beaker full of silk spiderweb needles. Got my anny acetone and fumaric acid. Question is I see the step that says after you have your dmt fumerate crystals...to was with more acetone. Could someone elaborate on this. In my case, what am I cleaning the fumerate of? Any excess fumaric acid I suppose?
If you dissolve the freebase in acetone and add FASA for precipitation, there should be no excess fumaric acid (or not much), as opposed to for example using FASW to salt out fumarates from non-polar solvents, because when you evap that you will have some excess fumaric acid.
But yeah room temp dry acetone or IPA would wash away excess fumaric acid.
If you want you can do it with half of your batch and see how much yield is lost and how much cleaner it gets, to compare if its worth it to do in your case. Dont throw anything away until you have final results in.
But yeah room temp dry acetone or IPA would wash away excess fumaric acid.
If you want you can do it with half of your batch and see how much yield is lost and how much cleaner it gets, to compare if its worth it to do in your case. Dont throw anything away until you have final results in.