The FASA Method: A Summary - DMT Fumarate and Beyond

[Phlux-]

dmt n-oxide doesnt make fums
impe not sol in acetone, sol in water

 

[endlessness]

Thats what i thought too, phlux, but infundibulum said that at least theoretically n-oxide could form salts. Now the question is, would this precipitate in FASA? Maybe someone could try hydrogen peroxide on dmt, then doing the FASA thing and seeing if something precipitates?

You say this because you are thinking chaliponga will have more oxides, phlux? And is this a feeling/supposition or do we have any data on that?

 

[Phlux-]

hehe you know me and hard data - only when i show pix
and yeah i do feel that way about most plants with dmt in the leaves.
iv noticed what a lot call n-oxides is just contams like oils etc
the reason i say its oils is because of this

I took 20mg dmt - added h2o2 etc - to make dmt n oxide
i put it in a shotglass and filled the glass with acetone - stirred it with a stirbar for 3 mins and nothing happened
all the oxide was still on the bottom of the shotglass
then i poured off the acetone - weighed it - no change in weight
then i added the same amount of water and it was all disolved before i was finished adding it

that determined solubility for me as i was offline that day

then when one makes fumarate salts via fasa on xylene - the salts are often yellow - yet one can wash this yellow off with acetone
when one disolves yellow fumarates in water and filters - to remove excess fumaric acid - on evap your fumarates are still white.

when one freebases (just to be certain all is in the same state) the yellow washes - and applies heat - they produce a vastly different smoke to home made pure n oxide
the n-oxide smells like plastic when burned - the contams smell - like idk utterly horrid.

takin all this into consideration and watching the teks then results on chali and others - then what i said above kinda seems to be the case - doesnt it ?

 

[endlessness]

hehe you know me and hard data - only when i show pix
and yeah i do feel that way about most plants with dmt in the leaves.
iv noticed what a lot call n-oxides is just contams like oils etc
the reason i say its oils is because of this

I took 20mg dmt - added h2o2 etc - to make dmt n oxide
i put it in a shotglass and filled the glass with acetone - stirred it with a stirbar for 3 mins and nothing happened
all the oxide was still on the bottom of the shotglass
then i poured off the acetone - weighed it - no change in weight
then i added the same amount of water and it was all disolved before i was finished adding it

that determined solubility for me as i was offline that day

then when one makes fumarate salts via fasa on xylene - the salts are often yellow - yet one can wash this yellow off with acetone
when one disolves yellow fumarates in water and filters - to remove excess fumaric acid - on evap your fumarates are still white.

when one freebases (just to be certain all is in the same state) the yellow washes - and applies heat - they produce a vastly different smoke to home made pure n oxide
the n-oxide smells like plastic when burned - the contams smell - like idk utterly horrid.

takin all this into consideration and watching the teks then results on chali and others - then what i said above kinda seems to be the case - doesnt it ?

I took 20mg dmt - added h2o2 etc - to make dmt n oxide
i put it in a shotglass and filled the glass with acetone - stirred it with a stirbar for 3 mins and nothing happened
all the oxide was still on the bottom of the shotglass
then i poured off the acetone - weighed it - no change in weight
then i added the same amount of water and it was all disolved before i was finished adding it

So you are saying that dmt n-oxide doesnt dissolve at all in dry acetone but it does very readily in water? Thats strange

Also then you say acetone washes the fumarates from yellow, so that you think is n-oxide too (and if so why is this time dissolving in acetone), or you think its plant oils and xylene FASA doesnt precip n-oxide?

Maybe what you made with h2o2 isnt oxide? Can any chem chime in here about other potential byproducts?

 

[Phlux-]

Also then you say acetone washes the fumarates from yellow, so that you think is n-oxide too (and if so why is this time dissolving in acetone),

nope

or you think its plant oils and xylene FASA doesnt precip n-oxide?

yep

 

[downwardsfromzero]

So you are saying that dmt n-oxide doesnt dissolve at all in dry acetone but it does very readily in water? Thats strange

[...]

dmt n-oxide is a zwitterion - an internal salt and a polar molecule. Therefore it shouldn't be too surprising that it dissolves in water - a polar solvent. Trimethylamine N-oxide also has "good" solubility in water, although this analogy is not necessarily valid considering trimethylamine is miscible with water.

 

[endlessness]

So you are saying that dmt n-oxide doesnt dissolve at all in dry acetone but it does very readily in water? Thats strange

[...]

dmt n-oxide is a zwitterion - an internal salt and a polar molecule. Therefore it shouldn't be too surprising that it dissolves in water - a polar solvent. Trimethylamine N-oxide also has "good" solubility in water, although this analogy is not necessarily valid considering trimethylamine is miscible with water.

Yes that it at least partly dissolves in water is understandable, but what about not dissolving in acetone ? Im pretty sure people had discussed otherwise already.

 

[Myco]

Has anyone gotten around to using glacial acetic acid instead of citric acid in acetone?

Infundibulum mentioned this should work but I don't know if he ever got around to trying it.

 

[The Day Tripper]

i noticed inquiries about tasa and dmt tartarate came up in this thread a few times as far as viability.

I tried it once with dry acetone exactly like a fasa tek, and while it was nice tartaric acid was very soluble in dry acetone, the results were quite disappointing. all that precipitated was a gooey, sticky viscous chunk, that appeared to be VERY hydroscobic. Very much like the time i tried to make dmt hcl (don't even waste your time considering it :lol: ), but if anyone is considering trying tasa, i do not recommend it.

But that's just one amateur alchemists opinion, I'd love to hear if anyone has tried tasa as well, and if it worked at all for you. Cant seem to find much anecdotal reports on tying tasa.

Kinda sucks considering tartaric acids high solubility in dry acetone. You would use a fraction of the amount of acetone required for fasa if tasa was viable. Guess that acid is best saved for the natural ergoloids as far as alkaloid purification via dry alcohol/acids precipitation.

 

[foaf]

So this seems obvious from the posts but please confirm for me.

Fumaric acid is insoluble in xylene as is dmt fumarate but the acetone that you drip in that is saturated with fumaric acid is enough, even once it dilutes out, to keep the fumaric acid in solution. Implying that you don't need to titrate. Correct?

 

[Infundibulum]

So this seems obvious from the posts but please confirm for me.

Fumaric acid is insoluble in xylene as is dmt fumarate but the acetone that you drip in that is saturated with fumaric acid is enough, even once it dilutes out, to keep the fumaric acid in solution. Implying that you don't need to titrate. Correct?

Very close to correct; this is what I thought when first developed the technique. Pretty much, if you drop FASA in clear, unused xylene, there should be no clouding forming. But as long as there is dmt, clouds of precipitation will form. It is always advised to drop some FASA in unused NP solvent before going on to try it. I remember clearly that dropping FASA in unused naphtha was causing fumaric acid to drop out immediately, something that did not happen with xylene.

In reality, there is some fumaric acid dropping as well...as later analyses have demonstrated. This makes sense, because a xylene pull is no more unused xylene, it also has a plethora of plant fats and oils in it that this may cause some fumaric acid precipitation as well. Any excess of fumaric acid can be cleaned away with acetone. In addition, the mere act of freebasing the fumarates will get rid of any excess residual fumaric acid (which, by default, will be converted to sodium fumarate).

 

[Godsmacker]

I am planning on conducting a FASA tek in the near future, and was wondering if if anyone has had experience using naptha as the nps instead of xylene. Also, I was wondering if anyone has done this without previously rendering their acetone anhydrous.

 

[DreaMTripper]

It doesnt work with naptha, acetone must be anhydrous or the water content will keep a portion of the dmt fumarate in the solvent

 

[Mindlusion]

Not sure if this paper has been linked to the forum yet... For some reason I vaguely remember it...


But anyway, its a super useful research paper for us. It gives solubility of fumaric acid in a variety solvents across a temperature range.

Isopropanol > ethanol > propanol > acetone

 

[GreenDMT]

Hi there.

You bring up a good point.

If you look for example at how they produce canola oil it is a lot like DMT, hehe.

First they macerate the canola seeds, then cover them in hexane. The hexane absorbs all of the oil, plus some impurities. Next NaOH is added to precipitate out unwanted material that was carried over! This is filtered, and finally the hexane is evaporated off, leaving pure canola oil.

Is there NaOH in canola oil? No.

But NaOH could react with fats leaving soup, I think it can be absorbed to oil