The importance of heating during the first acid extraction of MH powder

[immnlcnt]

How important is it to heat the solution during the first step?

When I did my first extraction I simply forgot to heat the MH/HCl solution. I just put it onto a magnetic stirrer and stirred it for around an hour, did 3 pulls in total with new HCl solution everytime and after filtering once my solution was looking like wine. I left it in the fridge overnight and got rid of all the remaining sediment after another filtration.

Now I started my second extraction and heated during the stirring. I got some mirky solution that's literally impossible to clear out of all the bark powder. I've filtered it the same way for like 4 continous days now and it only looks a tiny bit clearer. Everyday i find new sediment on the bottom of the glass. I keep filtering it but it seems to have almost no use.

So: is it even necessary to heat it when I have the possibility to stir it continuously? Or did i heat it too much?
The reason of the heating is to put in some energy so every molecule is vibrating and the freebase can bind with the HCl. So does it even make a difference if I put in thermal or kinetic energy?

 

[Varallo]

Yes is does matter, just look at it as making coffee, if you use hot water you can make coffee in a minute and have a beautiful extract, if you would like to get more or less the same strength of coffee with cold water it would take much longer and won’t taste the same as some parts will not dissolve in the same proportion.

So extract the bark by simmering it in acidic water and collect the brew, then when cooled add the base and proceed as usual.

More theoretical, the dissolution is in this case influenced by three factors temperature, particle size and stirring it. Dissolving something in water and the rate at which it does is dependent upon these three variables, and of course the properties of the thing that you are trying to dissolve.

To maximize the yield and minimize the amount of time needed we grind the bark to powder to maximize the exposed surface area so we have a maximum amount of surface where dmt can dissolve. The next is to ad heat this ensures that we have the maximum possible kinetic energy between our molecules and that they collide more often this helps to dissolve. The final thing is to stir the solution or rely on the movement of simmering water to create an optimal mix where the maximum amount of soluble material is never present and therefore prevents any buildup that prevents further dissolving.

Next to this the boiling helps breaking down the plant material and making it more accessible for the dmt to dissolve.

 

[immnlcnt]

I look at coffee and cold brew coffee tastes a lot better because you don't get as many bitter compounds without the heat. Yea, it takes some more time but that's all. And the time is exactly my point. I'd rather let it stir for 4h then having to filter it daily for a week.
What went wrong there? Did I heat it too much? This is how it looks after I've filtered it around 6 times and kept it in the fridge over 5 days.

 

[Varallo]

I look at coffee and cold brew coffee tastes a lot better because you don't get as many bitter compounds without the heat. Yea, it takes some more time but that's all. And the time is exactly my point. I'd rather let it stir for 4h then having to filter it daily for a week.
What went wrong there? Did I heat it too much? This is how it looks after I've filtered it around 6 times and kept it in the fridge over 5 days.

No need to filter just base, also it’s in this case not about the taste of the coffee but about the speed and concentration.

 

[immnlcnt]

On speed I'm with you, but cold brew coffee is usually way stronger than normal brewed coffee. But it's more complicated than that. You get more stuff out when u heat it ofc but also more stuff that you dont want to get out.
So to what temperature should I heat it? Around 90-100°C so the water is simmering without boiling? DMT-HCl is pretty resistant, but it has to bind first and the freebase is more volatile.

So it doesn't matter that there's still a shitload of sediment flying inside the solution and I just base it?

 

[Transform]

There is a school of thought which suggests that lid-on simmer is preferable to a rolling boil:

Mimosa's secrets - keeping a lid on it!

What do we know about the mystery alkaloids in Mimosa as of 2021? I'm curious to hear experiences from crock pot users and people who do cold water extraction. I have been doing the standard 3x3 cook of Caapi and Mimosa with distilled white vinegar for over a decade. I let the pots roar away...

forum.dmt-nexus.me

Of course, that's in terms of consuming the brew without further processing.

So it doesn't matter that there's still a shitload of sediment flying inside the solution and I just base it?

Most of the sediment should redissolve in the base if it's precipitated tannins. Some of it may conceivably be salts of inorganic cations, so there's grounds for being a bit more cautious about emulsions when mixing the NPS pulls. What kind of water did you use for the acid cooks?

So it doesn't matter that there's still a shitload of sediment flying inside the solution and I just base it?

Point of clarification: the DMT is in its protonated (salt) form in the plant material too; the HCl appears to solubilise the DMT from being bound to tannin acids, and/or from its place within the cellular matrix. I don't specifically recall whether any studies have been done on the exact location and distribution of DMT in the various mimosa plant tissues, but that would be interesting and potentially useful to know.

 

[immnlcnt]

lid-on simmer is preferable to a rolling boil

I wouldn't have thought that a full boil would be good, I heated it gently with the magnetic stirrer. It was around 70-80°C.
There should be some parallels if you want to consume the brew or if further processing is planned I guess. In both cases you want to get out the good stuff of the plants.

What kind of water did you use for the acid cooks?

I use distilled water only for everything. Also when I'm cleaning the glasses I always flush them with distilled water as a last step.

the DMT is in its protonated (salt) form in the plant material too; the HCl appears to solubilise the DMT from being bound to tannin acids, and/or from its place within the cellular matrix.

This is nice to know, I kinda thought it's only in it's freebase form. But it makes sense that it's also in protonated form in the MH.


Edit: So I just kept going with the next step and made the first defat with some Naphta and now the solution looks way better.