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the intelligence of dinosaurs

Migrated topic.
Many religious people (which make up over 50% plus of the world population) do not believe the fact that we are harming the earth and think that it is in gods hands. Others believe that earth was made by god for humans to do as they please with. Additionally you would be surprised to know that not everyone is aware of the extent of the damage. Others just don't care. People have made some changes in recent years, its not as easy as you think. Big business and our ways of life would have to drastically change. Many powerful people are economically dependent on the current destructive ways wether it is right or wrong does not negate the fact that it is the way it is. It is a complex problem. What are you doing to protect the rainforest? Or prevent pollution?
Saying that it is hopeless is not a good strategy even if it is hopeless. It is going to get a lot worse before we use up all our resources. There is the possibility of changing our ways. We may have to adapt and dramatically change the way we live but the possibility remains. Sometimes it takes drastic situations to influence human behavior. Furthermore change is occuring, public opinion has drastically changed with the right leaders environmental policies will be enacted. Take a look through out history change doesn't happen over night it takes time. It is not hopeless. Furthermore monotheism religion is decreasing every generation which will make a difference regarding how we view the world and other life.
Don't give up 69ron.
 
Its not entirely the technologies fault but rather the misuse of the technology. Technology does a lot to improve the quality of human life and in some regards benefits certain other forms of life. Living in a cold environment without much heat kind of sucks. Its not that difficult to solve our problems but it takes an awareness of what the problem is and an awareness of how large numbers of individuals can make a difference by changing some simple things. Smart business will follow the shift in behavior of people as long as the government is not part of the business. Spreading the knowledge on how to live more sustainably and the advantages that can bring you and your community is part of this process. Everyone can get involved in that.

Regardless I think we are intelligent in many ways. But dumb in lots of ways too. So are many forms of life. Like how flies trying to go through an open window but they keep flying into the glass and not realizing that all they have to do is move down one inch and bam they are free.
 
I think a first step in all of this is self empowerment. Instead of waiting for government-level solutions, we should take care in our daily acts. One can always try to be less wasteful, recycle, plant trees if possible, be a conscious consumer, be patient with others, occasionally sacrifice oneself for the greater good, etc

this and education (i.e. long term change strategies) are the two paths I believe can help at this moment
 
69ron your view of intelligence is quite different from mine. I understand where you are coming from but that type of intelligence is an unspoken natural intelligence, ours is a self understanding logical thought process. I agree it is not a great idea to destroy our environment but that doesn't mean we are not intelligent. Chimps, and other non-human apes do not have the mental abilities to do these things if they did they would and would also destroy their resources. How do I know? We are Apes and look at what we are doing. We posse something that other animals lack, it is this which has given us so much (unlimited food supply, science, language, math, computer...) but may also lead to our destruction. Other animals do not have the ability to create the destructive things that we have, the only animal that has been given it is us and look at what we have done with our intelligence. It may be insane to continue destroying our resources when we know what we are doing but many people don't care because it will not immediately effect them and they are right it won't. Views are changing however and we can not know what the future will hold.
 
burnt said:
Its not entirely the technologies fault but rather the misuse of the technology.

I absolutely agree. The majority of our technology could be used for good and the future technology could be environmentally friendly. However I do feel it is our technology and population size which is currently harming our resources. Also this technology has got us where we are today without it we would not be in this state as we would still be hunter gathering. Check out Jared Diamonds books Collapse and Guns germs and Steel they are great and really look into these issues and how we came to be in the current state we are today. It is interesting how the environment of our ancestors allowed all this to occur. Technology doesn't have to be this way of course, but it is currently. New technologies are already being developed or available that are environmentally friendly.
 
I have little to argue here. All of what you guys are saying is true.

My only argument is that if we were truly intelligent, we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with and our technology would be friendly towards nature. We wouldn't allow anyone to damage our world. We would protect it.

We allow ourselves to do really un-intelligent things do you not agree?

Sure we have technology, but without it, we are just an ape. And as you said bufoman, if the apes had technology they’d also be damaging the environment.

For me, technology is like the ability to weave a web. Its not a sign of intelligence. It’s a sign of technological know how, which I think is not related to intelligence. Ants have technological know how. They farm, build cities, etc. They do this with almost no intelligence at all. You see my point? We humans think this is so special because it gives us the upper hand over the other animals. Well, ants are also technological, and it gives them the upper hand over other insects. But it doesn’t make them more intelligent.

The fact that we humans use our technological know how to damage our own planet is a sign of extreme stupidity, not intelligence.
 
I agree that animals can exhibit complex behaviors without intelligence. But the very fact that we even have a word called intelligence and can discuss it with people across the world through an agreed upon language using a machine that communicates through the movement of electrons sounds like intelligence to me. The fact that we went to the moon. The fact that we are developing solar, wind,... energy sources are forms of intelligence. Many people are stupid but I think as a whole we obviously have some level of intelligence not seen in other animals, although I do see your point 69ron. We have accomplished many great things that have advanced our species and have made it more likely to survive at least in the short term. The question is will we be able to use our intelligence to get us out of the mess our intelligence got us into in the first place?
I don't think intelligence is necessarily the ability to survive. I think in the future computers/machines will have intelligence. I guess it is the ability to have higher level thought and understanding. To process complex information and use it to ones benefit. In many cases we have done these things, wether in the long term they will be destructive we can not say although it may appear that way it is hard to say. One things humans are good at is at the last minute coming together to make things work. We may be lazy, procrastinators but some of us at least can be intelligent. The very fact that we are aware of these environmental harms shows our level of intelligence and understanding of the world and our behavior with it. I guess intelligence is a relative term, it depends on what one sees as the ultimate goal?
 
It's going to be really funny when an asteroid or some other uncontrollable cataclysm destroys the world and kills everything. We won't be the ones hurting the planet and the ecosystem anymore. It will be God's fault.
 
If God did that, it would be intentional and be the right thing to do. Some believe that’s how the dinosaurs were destroyed, by simply an intentional act of God. I’m sure our days here are numbered. I believe most, if not all, civilizations are intentionally destroyed by God once then get too corrupt. That is why the universe is pretty much empty and not filled with intelligent life visiting earth all the time. There’s almost no one out there. That’s why SETI has never found anything at all. Space is a vast mostly untouched piece of work made by God. God keeps erasing and redoing his work. Each time making huge improvements…from dinosaurs to man to who knows what. The next big thing I’m sure will be far better than us.

I don’t think humans are worthy to inhabit anything beyond the earth and that God will see to it that we are destroyed sometime soon to prevent us from destroying the rest of the universe the way we are destroying our own planet and our own small piece of space. We are reckless, irresponsible, we pollute everything we touch. The space surrounding our planet is already starting to be trashed by us leaving all sorts of crap out there. It’s completely irresponsible. I’m surprised God has allowed us to last as long as we have lasted.

Many think the next intelligent life form will actually be the ants. Once earth gets hit with a large enough asteroid, all the larger creatures will be destroy, and the smaller creatures will have a go at it all over again. Just like before. During the dinosaur age, we were nothing but a tiny mammal, but once the dinosaurs were out of the picture we were able to evolve into something quite spectacular.

I don’t know what the next big life form will be after we are erased from the face of earth by God, but I’m sure they will be better than us and more worthy of the earth than us. I’m sure they will be a vast improvement.
 
I have complete faith in God. I think it’s likely that the only reason God has allowed us to last this long is because God’s hoping we will clean up our act. I think God is too kind. I have little faith in humans. We are fucked up creatures. We’ve caused many animals to become extinct. We kill each other all the time. Every second of everyday a human is killed by another human. We continue to pollute the world even though we know it’s bad. We enslave other animals for food. We perform horrifying tests on animals for the sake of “science”. We basically only care about ourselves. It’s sad but true. We are bullies in the eyes of the other animals. We take and take and take and give very little back. It’s a sad state of affairs.

Some of us see this, some of us are enlightened. Most of us are not. We continue doing horrible things to our plant and the other animals on a daily basis. It’s not going to stop anytime soon.

I see what’s happening. I am ashamed of it. I don’t think we’re worthy of this planet. We should be very thankful that God hasn’t already erased us from the face of the earth. I wonder what God’s reason is for allowing us to exist? Maybe God is selecting those of us who are enlightened and will reincarnate those souls in the future after God erases the humans. Maybe it will be the souls of the enlightened humans that will inhabit the bodies of the future dominate creature on earth. Who knows?
 
I do not believe in a conscious god who can willfully intervene in the matters of the universe. There is 0% reason to believe in such an esoteric being. Additionally there is no way to know for sure but the likely hood of a god being a conscious intervening god is unfounded and rather illogical. There are too many issues that arise, where did this god come from, where is this god, why did it create all of this, what does it care about us. The view of a man in the sky watching humans is very egocentric. We are not someone's science project, the universe is too large and complex we don't matter, as individuals. To think we could even understand is egocentric in itself. It is our role in the entire system that is important. There is no separation between us and god we are all part of the universe, the universe is god, In the taoist sense because it lets all else exist, it is the creator of all. Not to stomp on anyones beliefs but can't we just admit we don't know and that no ones does. There is no reason to believe in the some intellegant being watching over us and dictating events. This is what a bunch of people 10,000 years ago believed it. We know that virtually everything else these people thought was wrong so why should this bizarre belief by right? The buddhist were able to know this many hundreds of years before christ. If one means god in the sense of a creator than the brain can be god, or the laws of physics. I heard a saying once that if you believe that human society (or earth) was made by angels it makes little sense, but if you realize its just a bunch of apes running around with weapons well it starts making a hell of a lot more sense.
 
I have complete faith in God.

Why? I think thats an important question that many people who believe in that kind of god never ask themselves or consider seriously.

I do not believe in a conscious god who can willfully intervene in the matters of the universe. There is 0% reason to believe in such an esoteric being.

Precisely.

Instead of relying on god to change human behavoir human beings must try to change their own behavoir. God isn't going to do shit.

One day we may die out from an asteroid, nulcear war, devestation of our environment, alien life forms, or the sun exploding. But we can change. People are slowly changing. Lots of people are getting stupider because of propaganda and government control over them but we have the power to make that change. The more people who try to help educate others on how to live sustainably and how to take care of ourselves without causing such damage to our environment the better of we and other creatures will be. If you just sit around and wait for god to solve the problem nothing will ever change! Which is exactly what a lot of ignorant people who believe in "god" are doing.
 
Exactly burnt. It is a very egocentric belief. The belief in the monotheism god reinforces the belief that the earth is for humans, that we are somehow special and all of this is ours. This is certainly not the case I am not saying that 69ron feels this way but many people who believe in this kind of thing do. Christianity has been slowly eroding away, this is a very important step, as humans will begin to realize the importance of the here and now on this planet and our roles as animals. We are not special. Believing in god (the christian, jewish, arab sense) is the same exact logic as believing in santa clause, there is a judgement period, and at the end of it if you were naughty you get coal, if you were good you get presents (heaven). It like a kid who despite how illogical the idea of santa is refuses to let go of his belief. Yes it would be nice if there was someone answering our prayers, helping us out, and waiting for us in heaven but just because you want something or think it would be nice doesn't make it real. So it is a extremely illogical belief that is slowly changing. (These types of religions are decreasing, in Europe and N america) Religion was just a primitive form of science, it was an attempt to explain peoples observations. Now we have a logical system, science, while not perfect is much more advanced than making up stories to explain things. There is no reason to believe in a man in the sky intelligent god other than you were told to as a child. You have to suppress logical thought to believe this kind of thing. All societies on earth have developed some form of religion, most don't believe in a single god of the humans. The ones that do believe in this god are by far the most destructive cultures on earth, there is undoubtably a correlation as this belief system justifies selfish egocentric behaviors. We don't know, none of us do, but just making up a story isn't a logical means to try and figure this difficult question out. We should all keep an open mind and admit we have no idea. Remember just because you want something to be a certain way doesn't make it real.
 
Yes and ron I invited you to explain yourself a bit more about what you mean by god. Your a smart guy and I'd like to hear what you think.

I tend not to like the word god because its too often associated with all the kinds of things bufoman just brought up.

However when I think of god if I had to come up with what I think fits the definition of god the first place I look is here on earth. Without earth I would not exist. It can be god number 1. God number two is the sun. God number 3 is the cosmos. God number 4 is the laws of nature that allowed me to come into being meaning the 4 fundamental forces that arouse out of whatever happened about 14 billions years ago. God number 5 would be what ties that all together and that I am perfectly ok with accepting it is something I do not know. There are lots of other gods that have allowed me to come into being my parents, the sex drive, plants, but the 5 I named are just the most important ones to me because of their sheer impressiveness and power over my existence.

The difference though I think with this view of god and the most commonly held view of god is that I dont think any of those gods are intelligent beings. Its most certainly not another life form like all the forms of life we have on earth and most likely elsewhere in the universe. Could some kind of super intelligence be out there guiding things from another dimension of space or something like that? Maybe but until there is evidence for that I don't see a reason to dedicate myself to believing in it.
 
Intelligent beings can be caught in situations where they'd be forced to act unintelligently. Game theory is all about this.
69ron refers to a prisoner's dillema-like situation, where all in. And the fact where all in it is because we force eachother into this situation. the collective mind may be much more stupid then the individual. For instance, you could have trafic regulations determining that trafic entering a roundabout/commuter train have priority over those leaving. It would be a stupid rule, but if everybody follows it, not to follow it would be a more stupid decission wich could lead to accidents.
Nevertheless, throughout evolution we and many other creatures as well have learned to overcome these strategic interaction problems. Frans de Waal has written interesting books on this topic, regarding intelligent social behaviour in primates and apes.
We are quite able to act wisely, though it always requires some effort. The larger a community the weaker it becomes in this perspective. Great succes always has a downside to it. Overall i think history proves our appetite for creation is greater than that for destruction, given the fact destruction is so much easier.
 
as for the god discussion..


bufo, you said that too many issues arrive when one tries to add 'God' to the equation

I would say that too many issues arrive with every way of trying to find the beginning

Sure we know that a some billion years ago all matter was concentrated in a small point, as all sorts of indirect data show. But this also creates many issues, because how comes in that moment things happened, and not before or after? and how comes everything was all together in the first place? and how comes there is any existence at all?

These questions are too big for us at the moment, and any supposition is just that, supposition..

What I can see from my experience is that (even if it overly and superficially said) there is a unity behind all multiplicity. Im not talking about a god, or even a being.. It is some kind of Ultimate level of things, beyond words.

I also think there must be some sort of exchange route between these two opposing levels, multiplicity (or the 'phenomenal world') and the underlying unity, just like there is between every other opposite. If we look at the yin yang, for example, its not made of two static black squares but of a flowing shape that gives the idea of movement between the two opposites. I couldn't say, though, what kind of interchange happens, in what level. I wouldn't say that its a bearded god dealing with affairs on earth, thats just too much childrens christianity. I do see how christianity in it's essence, though, has something good and I can 're-signify' certain of its (in my opinion) misunderstood ideas.

In any case feel that the important is to be pragmatic and take our ideas to practice. If one's world view is intolerant, rigid, cold and unwelcoming, exaggeratedly comforting, if it makes one lazy, stressed, extremist, unhealthy, then its not one I would follow.
 
69ron said:
Also some squid with a brain about the size of a dinosaur’s brain are able to communicate with each other using flashes of colors. They are able to carry out complex organized group attacks on other fish and yet have a very tiny brain.

They may have a tiny brain, but the way that they think is different than most other creatures. Their brain function is displaced from the brain to the extremities, so that they can solve problems to some degree outside of the CNS. They are probably the closest thing to a truly alien life form we have on this planet.
 
They are indeed fascinating creatures, and I do believe they have the ability to think beyond their brain. Some jelly fish have shown the ability to think without having a brain at all.

Back onto the subject of God.

I used to be an atheist. God showed me he existed beyond a shadow of a doubt. I’m not going to argue about it, because I cannot prove to you, nor can anyone else prove to you the existence of God because God exists outside of reality for which there is no way of measuring, seeing, photographing, etc. So it’s completely impossible to prove God exists within this reality because this reality is just a figment of God’s vast imagination.

I laugh at the scientists trying to figure out how the universe works. It is all an illusion. It’s a figment of God’s imagination just as you and I are.

Anyway God proved to me that God exists and did so with a way that was completely impossible for it not to be.

God did several things for me personally. He predicted several future events, all of which were impossible for anyone to know. All of them happened exactly as God showed me. God also introduced me to my wife. I’ve been very happily married ever since.

Going from being a complete atheist to someone who knows God exists without a doubt, and knowing what it means to be an atheist, I realize that I cannot convince anyone that God exists. It’s impossible because God lies outside of reality.

For example, you cannot photograph God because God has no body that reflects photons. Photons are just a figment of God’s imagination. They are not real. Nothing in reality is real. It’s like a dream. In a dream you cannot use dream technology to prove the existence of the dreamer. Likewise, you cannot use our technology to prove the existence of God, because our reality is just one of God’s dreams. You get it?
 
Your views sound some what like hinduism yet you do believe in an intelligent intervening god which they do not. I agree that they way we perceive reality is an illusion see the reality thread, Quantum mechanics supports this but there is no reason for there to be a god. Coincidences happen I have had many. The probability of you not having coincidences in your life is very small. I stopped believing in god when my 14 year old brother who never hurt a fly was diagnosed with brain cancer. I have since dedicated my life to the pursuit of truth through logic and science. Yet I know from studying science how little we really know. I know that science is not perfect but it is the most reliable thing we have. Even the reason you give for believing in god is a form of science. Although I think it is coincidences. I have had long conversations with hard core christians and have at least gotten them to admit that there is no way they could know for sure.
 
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