the intelligence of dinosaurs

[flyboy]

Hey, it struck me last night, how the hell do we know dinosaurs were just beasts and not speaking intelligent beings??

Does science have any idea of what their innerd or brain structures were like?

Or, maybe most were beasts, but some were intelligent, similarly to the way when there were less humans than primates on earth and we were all wiped out, future people would probably lump us in with the apes?

This is along the line of intelligent reptilian beings, but what evidence is there against it?

 

[burnt]

Does science have any idea of what their innerd or brain structures were like?

Based on the shape and size of the skull you can determine a bit about how their brains were structured as well as the spinal cord and the rest of the skelatal structure. Also you could look at their descendants (birds and maybe some reptiles) and get an idea about their brain structure.

 

[69ron]

Brain size is not necessarily a sign of intelligence or a sign of the ability to communicate.

Keep in mind that not all intelligent beings have brains. Some jelly fish have been found to have some level of intelligence with the ability to track their pray and appear to have absolutely NO BRAIN. And many plants communicate on a chemical basis to warn other plants of attack, all using no brain.

Also some squid with a brain about the size of a dinosaur’s brain are able to communicate with each other using flashes of colors. They are able to carry out complex organized group attacks on other fish and yet have a very tiny brain.

Another common example of this is the ant. They obviously communicate, form complex social structures, can form complex group attacks on pray, can build their own cities (ant hills, complex tunnels, etc.), and can even farm. They do all that with a brain many times smaller than a dinosaur’s brain.

So it is very possible that some dinosaurs had the ability to attack in organized groups and had the ability to communicate with each other, maybe even make cities and have complex social skills like ants. Considering all the things ants are capable of by using such a micro brain, it would be surprising that a far more complex dinosaur brain would not be capable of such things. But nothing has been found to indicate that’s the case.

 

[burnt]

Didn't mean to imply they were not intelligent but you can infer a bit about their brains and even some behavior's based on the evidence we currently have.

And many plants communicate on a chemical basis to warn other plants of attack, all using no brain.

This is very true but do you consider this intelligence? I consider it a type of intelligence but so different from what we normally consider intelligence.

Some jelly fish have been found to have some level of intelligence with the ability to track their pray and appear to have absolutely NO BRAIN.

I am always impressed by the intelligence of octopi. No central nervous system but they are smart.

 

[69ron]

Didn't mean to imply they were not intelligent but you can infer a bit about their brains and even some behavior's based on the evidence we currently have.

And many plants communicate on a chemical basis to warn other plants of attack, all using no brain.

This is very true but do you consider this intelligence? I consider it a type of intelligence but so different from what we normally consider intelligence.

Intelligence is such a vague word. It has many meanings. One such meaning is “the capacity to acquire and apply knowledge”. Using this meaning I would say that at some very basic level plants are intelligent beings. Nothing compared to an animal of course. Plants have the ability to gather information and act based on that information, they do this in many different ways. Detecting an attack is a form of acquiring knowledge and sending out chemicals to warn other plants is the communication of such information and would be considered applying that knowledge. Sensing the time of year is also a form of acquiring knowledge, and producing flowers only during a certain time of year based on that knowledge is a form of applying that knowledge. So at the most basic level, they are intelligent because they do acquire limited knowledge, communicate, and carry out simple actions based on the knowledge gathered. Of course they don’t have the ability to remember, see objects, hear sounds, or perform many of the other complex tasks common to animals.

With the more popular interpretation of the word intelligence meaning “the faculty of thought and reason”, plants would not be considered intelligence beings.

Some jelly fish have been found to have some level of intelligence with the ability to track their pray and appear to have absolutely NO BRAIN.

I am always impressed by the intelligence of octopi. No central nervous system but they are smart.

Yes octopi are quite intelligent. They are able to solve complex problems. They are quite remarkable creatures.

The fact that some ant communities actually farm is quite astonishing to me. They have micro brains and yet do some things humans do. Farming requires intelligence and yet their brains are smaller than a piece of rice. How they perform such complex tasks with such small brains is utterly amazing. They are proof that there is more to being intelligent than having a large brain. Quite a bit can be done with a micro brain. They farm, build their own cities, have complex social interaction, have organized wars with neighboring ant colonies, etc. They are amazing creatures for their size. Even a dog with a brain thousands of times larger cannot build a city, farm, etc.

 

[burnt]

The fact that some ant communities actually farm is quite astonishing to me. They have micro brains and yet do some things humans do. Farming requires intelligence and yet their brains are smaller than a piece of rice. How they perform such complex tasks with such small brains is utterly amazing. They are proof that there is more to being intelligent than having a large brain. Quite a bit can be done with a micro brain. They farm, build their own cities, have complex social interaction, have organized wars with neighboring ant colonies, etc. They are amazing creatures for their size. Even a dog with a brain thousands of times larger cannot build a city, farm, etc.

Yea this is a totally mind blowing society of critters. I wonder if the fungus they farm contains any compounds which effect the ants behavior besides just as a nutritional source?

But yea I think the word intelligence can be confusing. Virtually every form of life has some kind of intelligence. Better to look at intelligence as a continuim with many different levels rather then: intelligence or no intelligence. I don't like it when humans say they are the only known form of intelligent life on earth and they spend lots of time looking for other intelligent life on other planets (SETI program which is cool but yea..) when there is plenty of intelligent life forms right here on earth. We should try to communicate more with dolphins and whales using computer sound technology. That would be a break through in our understanding of intelligence.

 

[blue_velvet]

Everyone seems to be looking at intelligence as a big miracle of life, and it is, but humans are capable of more complex and abstract thoughts than a dolphin. We are more evolved. We can train dolphins to do follow commands. We couldn't do this if they were smarter. They would just say "ehk eek ehk ehk ikk" or roughly translated, "Fuck off!"

If dinosaurs were capable of building cities, then wouldn't there be some remnants of these civilizations? You can tell from fossils that their bodies were not capable of creating such things.

 

[burnt]

Intelligence is not necessarily reflected in an organisms ability to build civilizations that are similar to ours or even to act in a manner similar to us. Dolphins are capable of training other dolphins to do things they learn from watching humans (not even being trained by them). Dolphins do what we say because they get food for it. Dolphins save human lives occasionally, they get horny and flirt with humans, they are smart beings.

but humans are capable of more complex and abstract thoughts than a dolphin.

This may be true.

We are more evolved.

That's a bit humancentric. We are more evolved in some sense but we are not more evolved in all ways. To say humans are a "more evolved" species really doesn't mean anything. More evolved at what? Dolphins grew up in the ocean we grew up on land its a completely different situation.

If dinosaurs were capable of building cities, then wouldn't there be some remnants of these civilizations? You can tell from fossils that their bodies were not capable of creating such things.

No one meant to imply dinosaurs built civilizations. At least I didn't They don't have the body and most likely lack the intelligence as you said to do it. Humans do have the body type hence why we could build civilizations domesticate animals and farm.

Everyone seems to be looking at intelligence as a big miracle of life

Not sure who everyone is but its not miracle its a very logical product of evolution.

 

[blue_velvet]

its a very logical product of evolution

Our intelligence has destroyed vital ecosystems, altered the climate, we're becoming overpopulated. Humans are becoming unsustainable. Where's the logic in that. But that would make dolphins more intelligent. They're not sabotaging themselves. They were smart enough not to build factories and destroy the arable land.

That's a bit humancentric. We are more evolved in some sense but we are not more evolved in all ways. To say humans are a "more evolved" species really doesn't mean anything. More evolved at what? Dolphins grew up in the ocean we grew up on land its a completely different situation.

Our minds function on a higher level. We can explore the land, the air, the sea, and outer space. Remember that we most likely came from the sea too. We can make a conscious effort to learn the workings of many things. We just know more. (but that's too subjective! Dolphins could have a keener understanding of things unknown to us humans.) They may be extremely intelligent in one respect in comparison to other animals, but it is still an animal. You can say apes are intelligent too, but we obviously got them beat. We are more evolved than any other animal because we make more mental connections. They are busy with the objective of survival. They're not that different from other animals. They may have a higher level of awareness, but they probably won't reach our level of intelligence for a couple million years.

 

[Infundibulum]

Intelligence is just a tool, what humans can do with this tool is not so relevant. Humans have used this tool to learn all sorts of things, do all sorts of things and accomplish all sorts of things; all to aid our survival and well-being. And the intelligence of other organisms has not done such things because they are totally irrelevant to their survival. That is to say we cannot use the results of our intelligence as a standard to judge the intelligence of other species. This is a downright fallacious process.

And what the intelligence of other species, say wheat as an example has accomplished in order to help it survive better? Let's see:

Wheat, by virtue of its nutritious seed has attracted some species called humans. Wheat has made a pact with humans, basically to provide them with a good portion of it seeds. In exchange, humans will have to devote their land to plant and propagate it, humans will have to take care of it, humans will have to destroy its enemies, like weeds, pests etc etc (how neat is that?), humans will have to re-plant it and so on.

And it is not a fair pact; while we provide all comforts to the wheat, in retrospect it only gives us just a portion of our nutritional supplements. We're effectively "enslaved" to the wheat and by extension to all other crop plants. I am amazed with the way wheat has made us slaves and deceived us to believe that we control the situation! This is some intelligence if you ask me!

 

[bufoman]

Octopi have brains as well as a more diffuse non-localized nervous system that is quite complex. Ants are amazing, they have agriculture, livestock, use tools and medicine yet they are robots and their entire behavior is controlled by reflexive responses to chemicals. If you had these chemicals you could make an ant do what ever you wanted. Thus there is a difference.
While brain size alone means nothing brain size relative to body size is a fairly good indicator of intelligence. Just size means nothing, as elephants have huge brains, (they are smart) yet we have much smaller brains and are smarter in our measure of intelligence (obviously definition is of issue here). One of the reasons for the relationship is that the larger the organism the more neural space is require to control muscle activity and process sensory data thus they need more brain for m=normal functioning. Different brain structures do different things. Higher intelligence, the ability to think and have complex language systems like that of humans involves the cortex. Which is a relatively new addition to the nervous system. Most dinosaurs likely did not have an intelligence similar to humans, however some of their ancestors like birds are quite intelligent (descendants from the raptor family). There is no reasons to believe they did not communicate and coordinate behaviors to some extant. However they likely did not use tools (some birds do!!) and had minimal language capacity.

Also please remember that we are not more evolved than any other animal. Our minds have evolved to aid our species in its specific niche. Other animals are more efficient than us at other niches. All animals on earth have evolved just as much as we have just differently. We are not decended from any animal alive today rather we all shared a common ancestor. Furthermore animals are not necessarily all evolving towards intelligence unless there is some selection for further intelligence in their niche this will not evolve to be like ours. Our ability to think and alter our landscape may very well be the destruction of our species. Thus how evolutionarily beneficial is our intelligence in the long run?

 

[bufoman]

Wheat has in some ways enslaved us agreed. However it has also given us the ability of all of our modern science, electronics, education, writing, philosophy, medicine, computers, the internet. These things could not have evolved without the development of our type of agriculture which depended on the presence of wheat in our ancestors environment (Guns, germs, and Steel, By Jared Diamond is a great book). It really depends on what you want. These things are not necessary and a hunter gather life style may be more productive and safe and less stressful, but are you willing to give up all these things to go live off the land? I am not, although I have thought about it a great deal. Thus in some ways we are enslaved but wheat is also enslaved to us now, it has likely lost much of its ability to disperse its seeds naturally (as artificial selection has changed its phenotypes) protect its self from predators on its own... So humans and plants have entered into a symbiotic relationship that only time will tell the benefit of to either species.

 

[Infundibulum]

Yeah, well, I was just overexplicit, just to make a point. The relationship of humans and wheat (or any other plant/animal/fungus whatever) is definitely symbiotic. As to how gets the most out of the symbiosis pact is so difficult to determine.

I always wonder what an alien being would think if it was observing life on earth. It could possibly come to the conclusion that humans are over-exploited by some other organisms, hahaha

 

[69ron]

Humans are way too conceited.

If I were suddenly to decide to stop making things, stop talking to other people, and basically drop out of society and live completely off of nature like an ape, would I no longer be intelligent?

The fact that we make junk, collect information, communicate, etc., doesn’t make us intelligent.

I would say that a species that knowingly pollutes their environment is not at all intelligent. I argue that human beings are not as intelligent as the rest of the animals are. We are actually defective. Instead of being happy with life as it was intended, we are endlessly unsatisfied, so we make things to help with our endless unsatisfaction with life. It’s a defect.

The other primates are more intelligent than we are. They don’t slave away at a 40 hour per week job, wasting their lives, instead they spend all day enjoying life to its fullest. We are definitely among the most stupid creatures on earth. We think our ability to manipulate reality makes us superior, when this is actually what is hurting us. After millions of years of wearing clothes, we’ve lost the ability to live without clothes. All our fur is gone.

Eventually humans will be these fat ugly creatures that cannot move, eat, or do anything other than connect to computers, get fed intravenously, living like a cell in a large body. The wild monkey will look at us all and laugh, “look at what your technology has done to you! You are fat ugly creatures that completely rely on technology to exist. I can walk, run, and do everything with my own body. I need no technology at all. I don’t need injections of antibodies from the biological network to fight off diseases. I don’t need to slave away on the cyber network all day for money. I don’t need to live in a temperature regulated box. I don’t need to wear clothes. I don’t need glasses to see. I live off of nature for FREE. I am superior to you in every way!”

 

[Infundibulum]

Hahaha, I totally agree!

 

[bufoman]

HAAHA there is no evidence that suggests we lost our hair due to wearing clothing. It is more likely an environmental factor that occurred early on in our ancestors as cultures that don't wear cloths also have lost their hair and as we still have hair in certain locations. Again what do you mean by intelligence? Intelligence is not how many things one has but rather his ability to adapt, change, learn from and make sense out of the environment. North americans are no smarter than indigenous south americans. We understand different things as a result of the set and setting we were given and the environment. Relative to animals humans are more efficient at immediately altering their environment to their favor, they are also efficient at using tools, and understanding the connection between events. As well as having developed a complex a linguistic communication system and recording information via this language. We have also developed mathematics, telescopes, NMR, chemistry biology... no other animal can claim these feats. These are not what makes us intelligent but rather they are a by product of this intelligence. Yes some of our behaviors are ultimately destructive to our species. However this doesn't make us un-intelligent as much as just ignorant and stupid (to this fact). People don't directly see the impact they are having on the environment, thus they can not directly experience the damage they are causing and ultimately may lead to the destruction of our species. Therefore there is a disconnection that makes it seem like its not our problem and don't you know some one else will fix it. Our lives have been simplified by many of these destructive behaviors and we are not willing to give them up anytime soon. This is stupid yes but doesn't mean that we aren't intelligent. It may ultimately be our intelligence that saves us (through science, philosophy...). As the only reason we even know we re doing such things is because of our intellect. It is our ability to adapt and survive, and make sense out of the world by using our intellect this in my opinion our intelligence. Other animals are smart and their life styles may be more sustainable than ours but this does mean they know what they are doing, they did not make the conscious decision to live this lifestyle. In a changing environment humans through the use of their minds will be more likely to survive than other animals who can not use their minds. The mind is a useful tool to help adapt to a variety of situations it is not perfect. Furthermore our logic has evolved to serve a survivalist reproductive purpose. It is not perfect nor is it necessarily the only true logic of the universe. It happens to have worked (create offspring and survive) will it work in the future? Who knows? Only time will tell.

 

[endlessness]

the funny thing is, humans know about the damage they are doing to nature, but they dont feel it. The connection between both is missing, and if we agree that there are multiple intelligences, then there must also be an inteligence that crosses and links these intelligences together. Some sort of meta-intelligence. This is what seems to be missing in us, at least sometimes.

 

[bufoman]

Group psychology is also a factor. Everyone thinks ether that some one else will do it, and thus they are waiting for that person to act. or that they themselves can not make any difference on their own so why bother. These things are especially hard when we can not directly see the problem. It is a very hard and complex issue. The thing is however that we are not destroying the earth, the earth is too powerful, we are only destroying ourselves and other species but life and earth will go on until the sun engulfs it all. I wonder if the human race will ever acknowledge its role as a part of nature. It is rather sad the monkeys were given a great chance to develop incredible technologies that could revolutionize consciousness and existence and they are blowing it. We could go to space but we are blowing our shot for nothing, I wonder if there is something inherent in the evolution of intelligence that restricts intelligent life from surviving in the long term and thus intelligence (our form) always ends up destroying itself by only focusing on there here and now? I don't know but it is an interesting question. I sometimes wonder why our species is the way it is. It seems that we could potentially have such a beautiful world and existence and yet we expend so much energy on hate, power and making money that we loss site of the fact that heaven is earth. People care so much about heaven after they dye that the don't enjoy their life on earth. This may very well be our only self aware existence why not enjoy every second of it? responsibly of course without harming others.

 

[69ron]

My point is that we are somehow judging ourselves as being intelligent because of our human activities (building, using tools, etc.). This is not intelligence, but rather these are human specific technological skills. If I chose to not do such things and live like a wild ape, would I not be intelligent? I would still be me, but I would not do human things. If I made the decision to do this, completely cut off my human flaws, and live in complete harmony with nature, I believe that would be more intelligent. WHY? I would no longer be harming our world.

Our human technology has caused irreversible harm to our world. None of the other primates have made a conscious decision to harm their world have they? In that respect, they are more intelligent that us humans are. On a daily basis we harm our world. Shame on us and our technology. Shame on us. We are not intelligent, just dangerously powerful. Technology is the web we weave. There is nothing intelligent about technology. Nearly every corner of it has poisoned the earth and continues to do so and we do nothing about it. A bunch of idiots we are. I see no real intelligence present.

If we are intelligent, lets stop harming the world right now. Just stop it. Ah, but we can’t. It’s impossible. Why? Because we actually don’t control our actions. We are just as powerless as the ants are. We do what our society requires from us and then we die. We are little more than a large ant.

(Of course I am deliberately exaggerating a little to make my point)

 

[69ron]

If any of your other humans out there can get all the rest of the humans on the planet to stop harming the environment today, then I think maybe humans might actually be intelligent.

Give it a try. Tell everyone you know that we are harming the environment and need to stop right now. We are committing multiple crimes against nature.

What is going to happen if you try?

You will fail. Why? We all already know we are harming the environment. All the leaders of the world know this is happening and cannot stop it. No one can. Think about that a little bit and ask yourself why this is the case. We are supposed to be creatures capable of reason, capable of carrying out actions based on information, and especially creatures able to protect ourselves from threats against us. But we can’t seem to stop destroying the world. We can’t. It’s a bazaar madness and we have no way of stopping it. Even though we know absolutely that we are damaging our world, we continue it, and it will likely take us hundreds of years to stop.

It’s amazing how stupid we are. If we were being attacked, we’d respond right away, that day. But we don’t respond to the daily attacks on our planet waged by us. That’s so sad.