The need for Oxygen Absorbers when vacuuming the mushies?

[josboaz]

Hello,

Quick question about storage:

When I dry my mushrooms with a dehydrator, crumble them, and vacuum-seal them, do I still need to store the vacuum-sealed mushrooms with oxygen absorbers?

And what kind of container should I use the store this all in?

 

[Fungal Ethnographer]

lol, noone replied...

I vaccum seal bigger batches with silica gel and oxygen absorber, bc why not.
the best way to preserve them is in a jar, bone dry, poudered and with agron gas on it.
It is often said that it is less stable in pouder form bc more surface area, but that is wrong. What has more surface area, the densely packed pouder on the bottom with an inert layer or argon on or or some lose dried mushrooms that cannot even have argon on it unless you fill the whole bloody jar...

 

[Varallo]

lol, noone replied...

I vaccum seal bigger batches with silica gel and oxygen absorber, bc why not.
the best way to preserve them is in a jar, bone dry, poudered and with agron gas on it.
It is often said that it is less stable in pouder form bc more surface area, but that is wrong. What has more surface area, the densely packed pouder on the bottom with an inert layer or argon on or or some lose dried mushrooms that cannot even have argon on it unless you fill the whole bloody jar...

I think it’s not clear yet why powdered mushrooms degrade much faster than whole, I think it has more to do with an enzymatic process that is somehow activated by the powdering of mushrooms than that it is an direct result of the surface area of the powder (powdered mushrooms have a much larger surface area than whole)

Other then that I have mushrooms that have been vacpackt in the freezer for over 10 years that are still potent enough. I suppose that the glass jar with argon is nice but I’m not so convinced that it is really necessary.

I was wrong here, my next post.
Post in thread 'The need for Oxygen Absorbers when vacuuming the mushies?'
The need for Oxygen Absorbers when vacuuming the mushies?

 

[Fungal Ethnographer]

[...] I think it has more to do with an enzymatic process that is somehow activated by the powdering of mushrooms than that it is an direct result of the surface area of the powder (powdered mushrooms have a much larger surface area than whole) [...]

what enzyme do you have in mind? I have nerver heard this hypothesis and quite frankly just think you are wrong.

Meanwhile here is some data:



Powdered with argon is the best way to speserve them, while whole without is the worst.
For a detailed rundown and the methodology behind the data above, see:

https://www.patreon.com/posts/mushroom-storage-104822283?utm_medium=clipboard_copy&utm_source=copyLink&utm_campaign=postshare_fan&utm_content=web_share

It is unfortunately members only, but i would really recommend singing up to Gordo's patreon, its some 3 dollar a month and you could unsubscribe after a month. You get a Psilocybe natalensis and a Paneolus cyanescens spore sprint when you sign up, which is quite the deal.

Gordo does not go into vacuum sealing. If you have a vacuum sealer that uses heat to seal the plstic, i assume it is the best method, with some silica gel and some oxygen absorber, bc why not. However, if you intend to munch on them thw jar is better, just spoon out the amount of powerder you want without tilting the glass to much as to not spill the argon (it heavier than air and thus sinks), then just close your jar or maybe throw some aron on it to be sure. you can buy argon pretty much everywhere. It's used to preserve wine, from oxydation, through the same mechanism as with mushrooms, it exludes oxygen.
If your mushrooms are bone dry and there is not oxygen, I really doubt an enzyme could even work.

Best regards

 

[Varallo]

Your absolutely right I should have put my references in my reply. From the top of my head it was an paper that led me to believe that oxygen was only in part responsible for the degradation of actives so if that’s true then there must be another mechanism that can cause the effect, enzymes would be suspect.
I’m now almost without internet access and it wil take a month before I can properly reply back, so i have to leave the answer vague for now.

Interesting to see the results from the graph, I would say that the data suggests that there is a minimal difference and I wonder if this would be significant for a larger sample size. Now I would say that there not significantly different and that this actually supports the idea that there is more to is than just oxygen.

 

[Kobranek]

I should retest my whole mushies after over a year going on two with my vacuum packed, silica gelled, oxygen absorbed, argon gassed packages have degraded any. Based on my last journey they haven't a bit.

 

[Kobranek]

Just retested my mushrooms through bioassay over the weekend and no loss of potency noticed.

 

[josboaz]

Just retested my mushrooms through bioassay over the weekend and no loss of potency noticed.

Aight good to know

 

[Icyseeker]

Interesting I have been making powdered pills and and throwing them in a jar without argon. I thought because it was packed tightly in a pill it wouldn't degrade as much as if it were loose in a jar.

Perhaps I will look into using argon next time.

 

[Loveall]

Vacuum sealed dry whole mushrooms stored in the dark works for me.

No loss of potency.

Finely gound mushrooms turned into chocolate have a surprising good shelf life (years). In my experience the chocolate protects them.

@Varallo, enzymes need water to work I believe. If you blend fresh mushrooms, enzymes will go crazy and degrade the actives quickly.

 

[Varallo]

Vacuum sealed dry whole mushrooms stored in the dark works for me.

No loss of potency.

Finely gound mushrooms turned into chocolate have a surprising good shelf life (years). In my experience the chocolate protects them.

@Varallo, enzymes need water to work I believe. If you blend fresh mushrooms, enzymes will go crazy and degrade the actives quickly.

I have been trying to find my source for my claim, and can’t seem to find it anywhere, therefore I must revoke my claim that enzymes are entirely to blame. While the degradation is certainly promoted by powdering because one of the primary factors for degradation is the increase of surface area. The evidence about degradation because of enzymes although well known in fresh samples it is not clear in dry conditions.

I think that it is probably a mixture of factors that leads to degradation and all of them are positively correlated with the surface area that is being increased when powdered. Oxygen from the air is probably the main cause and when very dry enzymes might not be the main culprit, they would still have some effect especially considering that the average person might not have been able to dry the mushrooms.

My thoughts also have been influenced by how the temperature is somehow important in the preservation, it’s somewhat counterintuitive that storing at low temperatures leads to faster degradation.

The paper attached brings out this variable, temperature, apparently the stability is negatively affected by lowering temperature. This might be explained by the breaching of cells that then when defrosted leaves more opportunity for oxidation and possibly enzymes degrading psilocybin to psilocin, which then in turn is more easily degraded.

 

[josboaz]

average person might not have been able to dry the mushrooms.

I can crumble & powderize my whole mushrooms with just my hands, would you say that is dry enough, or at least I do not need to worry about? "when very dry enzymes might not be the main culprit they would still have some effect"

 

[Varallo]

Well as I said I’m not sure if that is something to worry about, I do think based on the paper it’s best to store whole, very dry and preferably under protective atmosphere and at room temperature.
Also if you read the paper I’m happy to then let’s talk about your interpretation.

 

[SympatheticMoron]

o2 absorbers lend moisture to the environment
silica gel absorbs moisture
You'll only make use of your silica gel capacity to keep the shrooms dry adding an o2 absorber
If you have functional o2 absorber you do not have cracker-dry, for sure. For me it's all about cracker dry.

 

[doubledog]

I do not think that powderizing is the cause of decreased potency, at least that is not my experience.
Imo most important factor is leftover humidity, seemingly dry mushrooms have still some water in it.
Drying and storage over some effective dessicating agent should be preferred.

 

[shroombee]

I've stored mushrooms for 4 years with no noticeable loss of potency (just confirmed the potency of this batch by microdosing 0.3 grams). The fresh mushrooms were semi-dried for 1-2 days with a fan (no heat), then fully dried using activated alumina. I store them in the dark, at room temperature, in a sealed plastic container with a lot of excess (orange bead indicating) silica gel packets. The beads are always orange when I check on them, so I know little to no moisture is being absorbed from the mushrooms or the environment.

 

[Kobranek]

o2 absorbers lend moisture to the environment
silica gel absorbs moisture
You'll only make use of your silica gel capacity to keep the shrooms dry adding an o2 absorber
If you have functional o2 absorber you do not have cracker-dry, for sure. For me it's all about cracker dry.

Mine are cracker dry before vacuum sealing with o2 absorbers, dessicant, and argon. They don't come out moist either after prolong storage. O2 absorbers use iron that is activated with moisture once opened from original package to scavenge oxygen in the package you place it in but not enough moisture to rehydrate your mushies, hence the need for dessicant packs. It's good practice to dehydrate new dessicant packs before using them to remove any moisture that was picked up along the way from manufacturing to the intended end use.

 

[blig-blug]

I use a little paper bag with calcium chloride inside a tightly closed jar. It keeps them extremely dry.

 

[Voidmatrix]

WTH, I am confident i posted that pic in the Mushroom Matrix...

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