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The Phalaris Analysis Thread

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thanks for that good info Muskogee Herbman..

jamie said:
interesting the finding of 5-MeO-DMT in yugo red. I felt like it was in there in my extracts but TLC findings from others found only DMT.
..'yugo red' and 'turkey red' are (slightly confusingly) two different strains..a lot of P. brachyastachys has some 5meo with dmt, but P. arundinacea 'turkey red' was predominantly 5meo in 90s tests..
 
just to clarify, I have yugo red. Never grown turkey red yet. What does confuse me is that there seems to be some dispute over whether or not "yugo red" and "yugoslavian fresh cut" are the same strain. The strain I have is sold as "yugo red" but back in the day appleseed was talking about "yugoslavian fresh cut".

Dreamer042 did find 5-MeO-DMT in Turkey red but not Yugo.
 
It doesn't seem the analysis in the first post of this thread detected that compound in any of the samples tested?

To know for sure you'd need to isolate the compound and do some solubility tests.
 
Summary: I grew six individuals each of Phalaris aquatica and P. brachystachys, indoors under lights. I extracted the leaves and analyzed them by HPLC. P. aquatica usually contained DMT, but 1/6 contained 5-MeO-DMT, consistently across two harvests. P. brachystachys always contained mostly 5-MeO-DMT, much less DMT, and significant amounts of other alkaloids, probably including but not limited to gramine.

Inspired by prior work on this forum and elsewhere, I've been experimenting with Phalaris, with an eventual goal of selecting or breeding for alkaloid content. My results aren't very useful yet, but I still wanted to share, especially since much of the literature on Phalaris predates modern analytical methods. This work predates my similar experiments with Sceletium (also posted in this forum), and this result is significantly less exciting to me, presumably due to the greater genetic uniformity of a species that mostly self-pollinates (at least for the P. brachystachys; P. aquatica is complicated). I guess DMT and its analogs may be generally more exciting here, though.

I purchased seed from a merchant whose catalog included many entheogenic plants. The merchant gave no information about these seeds beyond their species (where collected from nature, any artificial selection, etc.). I sowed ~20 of each species into respective 3" pots. After the seedlings were big enough to handle, I separated them, selected the most vigorous individuals, and transplanted one seedling each into 1.5" plugs. The potting mix was 50/50 coir/perlite, nutrient profile similar to a cannabis "bloom" or tomato fruiting-stage fertilizer, EC around 2.0 mS/cm, pH around 5.8. A flood table bottom-watered daily, and I hand-watered from the top every week or so to flush out salts. Photoperiod was 16 hours per day under white LEDs, around 7000 lux. These conditions were chosen for convenience, since I already had the system for other plants; I made no attempt to optimize for Phalaris.

Around day 55, I clipped the top ~6" of each P. aquatica, and promptly froze it. Each sample weighed approximately 6 g. A few days later, I chopped each sample coarsely with scissors and placed it in a centrifuge tube. I added stainless steel ball bearings and methanol, and shook the tube with a reciprocating saw for about two minutes. (Bead-beating is widely used in normal research, with purpose-built shakers. I later discovered a Belgian doctor who'd extracted mescaline with similar improvised apparatus[1].) Phalaris leaves are tough, and no amount of beating seemed to fully homogenize them; a stringy cellulosic mat always formed. I wrung that out as best I could, and filtered the liquid under gravity into 100 mL beakers.

For these first six plants, I extracted each sample three times, with three portions of 6 mL methanol each, in a 15 mL tube. I extracted later samples with a single portion of 20 mL methanol, in a 50 mL tube. I don't think that made a big difference. The chlorophyll wasn't fully extracted with the latter, since the water in sample dilutes the methanol to the point that it's not very soluble, but I don't think that affects the alkaloids much.

The beakers were then left to evaporate the methanol and endogenous water. The residue was redissolved in household vinegar, filtered again, made basic with ammonia, and extracted with two portions of 2 mL dichloromethane each, using a long needle on a glass syringe. The dichloromethane was left to evaporate, and the residue was redissolved in 100 uL of methanol. This procedure was loosely adapted from various papers in the seventies.

I spotted these extracts onto silica TLC plates, and eluted with 99:1 methanol to concentrated ammonia. The P. aquatica all showed a single spot under shortwave UV (a mercury lamp sold for algae control in aquariums), which I presumed to be DMT or 5-MeO-DMT. I compared against standards for DMT and 5-MeO-DMT; I think I saw a slight difference in Rf, but not enough to confidently distinguish. Various papers report separation of DMT from 5-MeO-DMT by TLC, but not by much; for example [2] uses HPTLC plates, and the difference is still pretty subtle.

I repeated this procedure for the P. aquatica regrowth anyways, around day 120, with similar results. I also repeated this procedure for the P. brachystachys at the same time. I'd probably left those too long without trimming, since immature seed heads were already present. The P. brachystachys all showed a second well-separated spot, which I assumed (not fully correctly; see below) from its Rf to be gramine. I'd hoped to quantify from the TLC, with an approach similar to [1]'s mescaline work. My results spotting standards were much worse than his though, perhaps because of my generally worse method (cheaper and smaller plates, cruder developing chamber, UV and not stain, etc.). I also found that workflow to be generally cumbersome. I thus became discouraged, since my analysis couldn't distinguish any difference between my plants that would be relevant for breeding.

I thus mostly abandoned the project, leaving the plants in their 1.5" plugs. The P. brachystachys set viable seed and then died around day 200, I guess completing its annual life cycle. A different photoperiod, more frequent trimming, a bigger pot for less dryback, and/or higher nitrogen might have extended its vegetative growth phase and thus yield. The P. aquatica never flowered, but it got hopelessly root-bound in the tiny plug and I eventually trashed it.

Later, I chanced to inherit some HPLC equipment: a single working pump, and a variable wavelength detector (not a DAD, one wavelength at a time). I first tried to develop a method with my inherited C18 column, but was not successful. At low pH, DMT is very weakly retained, even with almost pure water, and the peak tails badly. I probably should have guessed that, since methods in the literature generally use different columns; Clarke's refers to a C8, and [3] (and some others) used a pheny-hexyl. It's possible that a method could be developed on a C18 column at higher pH, but I didn't want to mess with buffers and my column wasn't rated for >8.0.

I switched to a phenyl-hexyl column, with 85:15 water:MeOH (w/w) plus 0.1% phosphoric acid. That improved the peak shape somewhat, and separates 5-MeO-DMT from DMT. I'd saved my extracts, though under poor conditions, in microcentrifuge tubes at room temperature. They'd therefore dried out, so I redissolved in 500 uL of methanol, filtered through a syringe filter, and analyzed by HPLC at 275 nm. The P. aquatica shows a fairly simple chromatogram, with DMT as the dominant alkaloid for 5/6 individuals. 1/6 showed both DMT and 5-MeO-DMT. A different extract of multiple seedlings pooled together actually showed more 5-MeO-DMT than DMT.

Those six chromatograms are superimposed here. The sample weights weren't exactly the same, so the chromatograms have been scaled vertically to make that comparable. DMT concentration ranged from 40 to 90 ug/g fresh (not the usual dry) weight. After drying in an oven, a different arbitrary sample decreased in weight by a factor of 8.4.

Don't trust any of these numbers too much. This is with standards of questionable provenance, significantly overlapping peaks, old equipment, etc.; but they did land in the right absolute order of magnitude, and relative comparisons may be more valid. Please also excuse the variation in retention time, which I think is mostly room temperature since I don't have a column oven. It's enough to make correct identification of the peaks somewhat tricky, but I ran standards enough additional times that I'm fairly confident I've done so correctly.

Regrowth showed more DMT than initial growth, 60 to 150 ug/g. This is consistent with the literature, though also consistent with less time for my poorly-stored sample to degrade. The 1/6 plant produced 5-MeO-DMT in both the initial growth and the regrowth.

As expected from the TLC, the P. brachystachys shows a more complex chromatogram. We see four additional peaks here at 275 nm, and at least one more at other wavelengths. Gramine is most discussed, but it's not the only unwanted alkaloid and not obviously (at least to me) the most toxic one. 5-MeO-DMT concentration ranged from 100 to 320 ug/g fresh weight.

[2] reviews many alkaloids reported in a different Phalaris species, and develops an HPTLC method to partially separate them. These standards are unfortunately not easily obtained, though. I've re-run the same extract at a few different wavelengths, some of which makes sense (e.g. that only 5-MeO-DMT still absorbs at 310 nm) but most of which is mysterious to me for now. I could get continuous UV spectra by pausing elution and sweeping the wavelength in my detector, though I'm not sure how much that would help.

I scraped the "gramine" spot off a TLC plate and found it separated into two peaks by HPLC; so that possibly narrows it down, assuming the sample actually contains gramine and that the gramine is actually eluting. I live near a stand of Arundo donax, which is reported to contain gramine (aka donaxine) as its primary alkaloid, so I may use that for further work.

In any breeding program, repeated testing would be required to determine whether any differences in alkaloid content are consistent. I've seen claims that particular alkaloids may appear and disappear seasonally, and my primary finding (P. aquatica mostly DMT, P. brachystachys mostly 5-MeO-DMT) is exactly backwards from [4].

I'm still considering my next steps. Assuming optimistically the 5-MeO trait in the P.aquatica is recessive and Mendelian, I could probably breed it out in two generations, by selecting DMT-only individuals, then growing out ~30 offspring and confirming those are DMT-only too. (That's just one test, not 30, since I can pool the samples.) I don't know how quickly I could induce flowering in P. aquatica though, so the breeding cycle might be long, and might require more space than I have available indoors. I'd appreciate advice from anyone with experience there.

I can definitely breed the P. brachystachys, with 2-3 generations per year. If my purchased seed is the S0 generation, then I'm now growing S2, after two rounds of selection for maximum 5-MeO-DMT. (I'm indoors with no fan, so I believe self-pollination is much more likely than cross-pollination. I didn't consistently bag the seed heads, though. It would also make sense to select for minimum unwanted alkaloids; but those look constant enough that's effectively the same thing.) I'm simultaneously growing more S0, so that I can compare and determine confidently whether I've actually achieved anything in my breeding. I should be ready to sample again in a month or so.

I've also optimized my sample preparation for analysis by HPLC. Sonication seems to work as well as bead beating or better, and it's much less trouble. Acidified water seems to extract about as much analyte as methanol. With detection by UV absorption at any single wavelength, I've been unable to develop any reasonably fast isocratic method that separates DMT and 5-MeO-DMT from the additional unidentified peaks in that crude aqueous extract. SPE is faster than the liquid-liquid extraction used above. I did some initial development there, but then I got a fluorescence detector. That seems to work great; with excitation at a 279 nm and emission at 352 nm, I get response from the DMT and 5-MeO-DMT but nothing else.

So I can process a couple dozen samples in a few hours (plus HPLC time) now, allowing me to grow and select from more individuals. I'll continue my selfing; but at some point I guess even a grass will get too inbred and lose vigor, and I also expect diminishing returns. So I also want to try some crosses. Mechanical emasculation seems difficult for an inflorescence this small. Brief immersion in hot water is reported in [5] to emasculate P. canariensis, which they believe to be a domesticated form of P. brachystachys, so I may try that.

[1] Validation and exploratory application of a simple, rapid and economical procedure (MESQ) for the quantification of mescaline in fresh cactus tissue and aqueous cactus extracts

[2] Efficient and Sensitive Method for Quantitative Analysis of Alkaloids in Hardinggrass (Phalaris aquatica L.)

[3] Synthesis and characterization of high‐purity N,N ‐dimethyltryptamine (DMT) hemifumarate for human clinical trials

[4] "Ayahuasca-like" effects obtained with Italian plants

[5] Phalaris canariensis is a domesticated form of P. brachystachys
 

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Hello aizoaceous,

we are thrilled to see your fascinating report and warmly welcome you to the ranks of Phalaris breeders.

Currently, we don't have sufficient data on intra- and inter-plant variation. This question remains unanswered, but we are actively working on it and will share our findings as soon as possible. Our preliminary results suggest that inter-plant variation is considerably higher than intra-plant variation for the tested P. aquatica accessions.

Our research has primarily focused on P. aquatica, as this species has shown the most promising results. We believe its perennial nature offers significant advantages.

We would be happy to provide you with clones or samples of the most potent plants we've identified so far. These could be useful for quantification and to enrich your gene pool if you're interested.

Kind regards,
 
Our preliminary results suggest that inter-plant variation is considerably higher than intra-plant variation for the tested P. aquatica accessions.
That makes sense, especially for a grass that usually self-pollinates (and thus inbreeds) in nature. I haven't seen much modern work on its genetics, but I assume that Phalaris is much more homozygous than cannabis, Sceletium, etc., increasing the relative importance of finding new populations vs. selecting and breeding within a population. [Edit: P. brachystachys is self-compatible like I thought, but P. aquatica is complicated and some other species are self-incompatible; see discussion below.]

So I appreciate the offer of promising clones or seeds very much, though for reasons of privacy cannot easily receive them right now. Any suggestions on public/commercial sources for populations of interest are also welcome (though it seems like you're working mostly with accessions recently collected from nature?). I may also explore different environmental conditions, since I can easily compare clones grown in a few different systems, with different light levels, photoperiod, day/night temperature, EC, etc., and those results may be transferable across different genetics.

In the other direction, I'm glad to ship stuff out; but for now that would just be the P. brachy, and I won't know if I've actually made any progress until I test my next round of samples. I so far prefer that for its higher alkaloid content and shorter breeding cycle, so I guess we've accidentally divided the labor well. I'll probably focus on 5-MeO-DMT generally, for practicality growing indoors (less plant material per dose) and for safety--with an uncertain alkaloid profile, it's much better to expect 5-MeO-DMT and get DMT than the reverse. I do still want to try breeding for DMT only, for the insight that gives into the genetics; but that would require long experience before it was prudent for growers without analytical facilities.

I'd somehow missed your thread before, and it's very interesting work--you're pushing TLC quite far. I enjoy the chance to refurbish old test equipment, but practical success is probably determined much more by diverse breeding stock than by analytical accuracy or throughput, especially for Phalaris per above. (That said, I also don't miss running all those liquid-liquid extractions, and I see lots of perfectly usable equipment selling near scrap prices. So for anyone with some patience and technician skills, a personal HPLC-UV or GC-FID is surprisingly accessible now.)

Any tips on inducing flowering in P. aquatica? Are you growing outside or in a controlled environment? For now I've just planted all my P. aquatica in the ground outdoors and will let it grow as in nature, but I was hoping there was a faster way.
 
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Hey aizoaceous,

Phalaris is predominantly self-sterile, resulting in a highly diverse gene pool even within single populations. While breeding within a single population shows promise, leveraging separate populations can be advantageous for introducing additional alleles into the breeding line. Alongside optimizing the desired alkaloid profile, enhancing growth vigor is essential since biomass production can vary significantly within a single species.

Regarding safety, we recently received a sample of suspected P. minor that produced toxic effects, with severe tremor and anxiety as the predominant symptoms in a bioassay. TLC revealed spots with beta-carboline-like fluorescence under 365 nm UV light. However, since this is a single case, it remains uncertain if beta-carboline-like fluorescence is a reliable indicator of toxicity.

Literature indicates that 2-Me-THBC and 2,9-diMe-THBC are present in some Phalaris specimens. These protoxins can be oxidized by heme peroxidases into the suspected neurotoxins 2-Me-DHBC+/2-Me-BC+ and 2,9-diMe-DHBC+/2,9-diMe-BC+. Beta-carboline fluorescence could potentially be used to detect even unknown beta-carboline derivatives but is limited by unknown sensitivity. We could induce fluorescence of around 450-480 nm using a 365 nm emitter and ZWB2 filtering. If you are interested screnning for beta-carbolines, this approach might work for you as well.

Optimizing for a pure N,N-DMT or 5-MeO-DMT profile is reasonable. Given the highly variable nature of individual plants, even in stable commercial cultivars, perennial clones may be advantageous for distribution within the entheogenic community. We lack sufficient data to estimate the population size necessary to avoid 'inbreeding depression' when producing seeds of annual Phalaris species.

It’s a good idea to compare different growing conditions, as considerable variation exists even within a single species regarding their requirements. Please let us know about your findings.

If you have access to national seed banks or similar repositories, you could order wild accessions. Commercially available cultivars are optimized for palatability, with their alkaloid concentrations significantly reduced to prevent Phalaris staggers syndrome in livestock. This syndrome can manifest as either 'cardiac-sudden death' or 'polioencephalomalacia-like sudden death.' Due to the low alkaloid content in these cultivars, our primary interest lies in wild accessions. Our next expedition to collect wild P. aquatica is scheduled for spring 2025.

Currently, we are observing panicles forming even in P. aquatica seedlings in different locations on the northern hemisphere. We are having an internal discussion about this issue. Day length and temperature seem to be important factors. How to deliberately induce flowering remains one of the yet unanswered questions in our research.

Kind regards
 
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Thanks for the correction; I'd failed to appreciate the complexity of Phalaris's self-(in)compatibility, and will edit above. P. brachystachys seems to be consistently reported as self-compatible, and I think mine was since it set viable seed indoors with no wind. P. arundinacea seems to be consistently reported as self-incompatible. P. aquatica seems to be mixed; one paper writes:
Of the 43 hybrids that were derived from pairs of self-incompatible parents, 13 were highly self-compatible.

I did actually get a tiny inflorescence on a later P. aquatica, but the seed wasn't viable. I attributed that to bad cultural conditions, but it could have just been lack of pollination.

I saw your note on those beta-carbolines elsewhere, an important warning. I have zero intuition for where things elute on a phenyl-hexyl column, but I guess the retention time should be somewhat close to harmine or harmaline? I can do some method development with those, and fluorescence detection should be easy and reasonably selective as you say. I plan to sample about thirty P. brachystachys seedlings soon, and will try to incorporate some kind of beta-carboline-fluorescence screen.
 
Hey aizoaceous,

Thanks for linking that fascinating paper.

Below, you'll see the TLC results for syrian-rue, toxic Phalaris, and non-toxic Phalaris, the latter of which has been confirmed safe through multiple bioassays.

1721294722139.png

It's important to note that toxic effects were observed in only one bioassay for this particular Phalaris accession, and we're not sure if the Betacarboline-like fluorescence is even linked to the toxicity.

Testing 30 seedlings is quite a feat. What led you to choose P. brachystachys?
 
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With the HPLC, it's not actually so much effort. I ended up doing only 22 for the reasons explained below, but it was just a few hours of active work (admittedly followed by about 8 hours hand-injecting samples).

I separated the seedlings, carefully washing the roots in nutrient solution to help confirm that I don't have two individuals tangled together. I then placed them temporarily on paper towels wetted with nutrient solution, to keep them alive while I work. I trimmed the shoots to about 3" long, taking the rest as my sample. That sample had weight between 0.25 g and 2.14 g, mean 0.61 g. I placed each sample in a labelled 50 mL centrifuge tube.

I then froze the tubes, for at least a couple hours. (I don't know if this is actually necessary, but freeze-thaw cycles do potentially help lyse the cells and release the alkaloids. I did earlier method development with material frozen for storage, so I don't want to deviate.) I filled the tubes with weak acid, in this case 20% household vinegar in water. I sonicated for 20 min at 50 C, filtered through a syringe filter (which is easy, no significant particulates), and I'm ready to inject. The chromatogram by absorption (at 275 nm) is somewhat cluttered, but fluorescence (excitation at 279 nm, emission at 352 nm) seems selective enough that no further sample prep is necessary.

I've attached some chromatograms. I don't love the peak shape; it was "better" in my earlier pictures, but that's because I was using a guard that was degrading my resolution. I think there's probably some kind of extra-column effect that I need to fix, but for now I've ignored it.

The P. brachystachys is incredibly uniform. In the population that I'd hoped I'd been selecting, I saw 570 to 1000 ug 5-MeO-DMT per g fresh weight, mean 830 ug/g, over 8 samples. In the seed I'd purchased from the vendor, I saw 930 ug/g to 1280 ug/g, mean 1050 ug/g, over 13 samples. So my selection made it worse if anything, both lower and less uniform. I think the analysis behind my initial round of selection (based on the samples I'd initially prepared for TLC) was probably wrong, perhaps due to inconsistent degradation in storage, since I see much less variation in my purchased seeds now than I did back then.

So I'm sad that my selection didn't help. On the other hand, it didn't help because the seed is already quite uniform, and quite high in 5-MeO-DMT--so my planned work was perhaps just already done, whether by nature or by an unknown human. I'm giving alkaloids in ug per g fresh because that's what I'm actually measuring, but that corresponds to about 1% 5-MeO-DMT dry.

I also sampled some Arundo donax, a lower leaf from a stalk a few feet tall. It does not contain detectable DMT or 5-MeO-DMT. It contains a large peak around 9.1 min that I believe is gramine. This is reported to also be fluorescent, also with emission in UV. To confirm the identity, I paused elution and swept the emission wavelength, with excitation at 280 nm. The maximum occurred at 320 nm, consistent with that paper. So I'm fairly confident in my identification of the fluorescent peak, though there's clearly more going on nearby in the absorption. The gramine peak is also visible in the P. brachystachys, but much lower.

I did some experiments with mixed harmala alkaloids, which show the expected fluorescence (excitation at 300 nm, emission at 410 nm) on my detector. They unfortunately don't elute with my current chromatographic method, though. I believe a gradient method (where the composition of the eluent changes with time) would be required, since any single eluent weak enough to separate the DMT from 5-MeO-DMT is too weak to elute the beta-carbolines, and I'm not currently equipped for that.

As a quick fluorescence screen, I injected with the column replaced by a union fitting. The trace is therefore not a chromatogram, and the three peaks correspond to three injections. The first peak is 5 ug/mL mixed harmalas, followed by an extract of P. brachystachys, followed by a mixture of 30 ug/mL each of DMT and 5-MeO-DMT. We still see some fluorescence in the Phalaris, but we also see it with the pure DMT standards, in fact more strongly (by ratio of fluorescence to absorption) than in the Phalaris extract. I repeated this for all the extracts and didn't see any evidence of beta-carboline fluorescence. The ratio of fluorescence to absorption was quite uniform.

I initially chose P. brachystachys because it had the highest reported alklaoid content of any species in the literature, and then focused on it for selection because I managed to get seeds from it. The seeds I bought now seem so uniform that they're not a useful breeding target, though. I'll probably focus my selection efforts on my Sceletium, which is highly variable. I do remain interested in Phalaris and will continue to run experiments, perhaps more on cultural conditions and preparative-scale extractions.

Are you growing indoors at all? I guess P. aquatica is even bulkier than the brachystachys, but that would let you disentangle the environmental effects.
 

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