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The Reason Depression can be impossible to treat
- Thread starter obliguhl
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Good video, was not familiar with Sapolsky.. will definitely be doing more reading, thanks.
I think that he makes an important distinction early on in the video between major depressive disorders and the colloquial use of the term depression that most people use to denote periods of sadness/loss of interest in things, etc.
The true blue major depressives are very difficult to treat, I agree and have known a few. The variety that most of us will encounter at some point in our lives is, imo, far more malleable.
Here is a quote from an author i really enjoy, and met once who suffered from the serious variety, and unfortunately killed himself recently secondary to getting off his MAOI's. While his work speaks to a level of depression I have personally never experienced, I think that the wisdom inside is extractable to the more garden variety as well.
“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.”
― David Foster Wallace
I think that he makes an important distinction early on in the video between major depressive disorders and the colloquial use of the term depression that most people use to denote periods of sadness/loss of interest in things, etc.
The true blue major depressives are very difficult to treat, I agree and have known a few. The variety that most of us will encounter at some point in our lives is, imo, far more malleable.
Here is a quote from an author i really enjoy, and met once who suffered from the serious variety, and unfortunately killed himself recently secondary to getting off his MAOI's. While his work speaks to a level of depression I have personally never experienced, I think that the wisdom inside is extractable to the more garden variety as well.
“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.”
― David Foster Wallace
Sapolsky covers the material in the lecture in more detail in one of the chapters in his book Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers.
A lot of the science in the book is a result of his study of wild baboon troops in Africa. A Primate's Memoir: A Neuroscientist's Unconventional Life Among the Baboons is a highly entertaining account of his adventures as a primatologist in Kenya.
A lot of the science in the book is a result of his study of wild baboon troops in Africa. A Primate's Memoir: A Neuroscientist's Unconventional Life Among the Baboons is a highly entertaining account of his adventures as a primatologist in Kenya.
PrimalWisdom
Everything the light touches
Thanks for starting this thread.
I've basically battled depression for at least 10 years - I just didn't know it. I just thought everyone felt like crap and hated getting up, going to work, and basically living life like the instructions on the back of a shampoo bottle.
My wife linked this little animated video to me and it literally made me cry.
I've just been through a major mental and physical breakdown because of "self-medicating" to get through each day.
learning to accept that yes I do have depression and it doesn't only happen to "other people" was the first step.
I'm taking many other steps to get myself back to being ME again. I am also getting professional help, which is helping immensely. Dumping a whole lot of issues on someone else on a weekly basis is quite cathartic. But the only way to get better is to actively take back control of your life and how you feel about it. It's incredibly difficult and it still feels like I'm only still looking up at the mountain I have to climb, even though a month has gone by since I broke-down. I have refused any anti-depressant medication just based on my own research and the train-wrecks I've seen from the over prescription of things like SSRI's.
Anyway I'm rambling now. you guys should check out the vid - it's not scientific, it's just a reminder that depression effects so many people and often the first step is just admitting that you are depressed. Then figure out what the next step is, eventually you'll be running
Well that's my mind set at the moment and it seems to be working but only time will tell.
Peace, and laugh a little (it helps)
I've basically battled depression for at least 10 years - I just didn't know it. I just thought everyone felt like crap and hated getting up, going to work, and basically living life like the instructions on the back of a shampoo bottle.
My wife linked this little animated video to me and it literally made me cry.
I've just been through a major mental and physical breakdown because of "self-medicating" to get through each day.
learning to accept that yes I do have depression and it doesn't only happen to "other people" was the first step.
I'm taking many other steps to get myself back to being ME again. I am also getting professional help, which is helping immensely. Dumping a whole lot of issues on someone else on a weekly basis is quite cathartic. But the only way to get better is to actively take back control of your life and how you feel about it. It's incredibly difficult and it still feels like I'm only still looking up at the mountain I have to climb, even though a month has gone by since I broke-down. I have refused any anti-depressant medication just based on my own research and the train-wrecks I've seen from the over prescription of things like SSRI's.
Anyway I'm rambling now. you guys should check out the vid - it's not scientific, it's just a reminder that depression effects so many people and often the first step is just admitting that you are depressed. Then figure out what the next step is, eventually you'll be running
Well that's my mind set at the moment and it seems to be working but only time will tell.
Peace, and laugh a little (it helps)
corpus callosum, thanks for the dose of realism. Still, those who can't do anything...what about them? I think some kind of hospice for severely depressed people would be a good idea. Perhaps better living conditions would even help them?
I've watched several talks now, thanks for the suggestions. The one from Berkley was most interesting. The Andrew Solomon one... i don't know. Personally, i don't really see the stigma of depression. I mean, its usually not something i like to discuss with someone in person, but for me, it's the norm.
What does that even mean? Is it a figure of speech or to be taken literally?
Jamie
...but what about people who feel like they are constantly trying to improve and work on their problems without going anywhere? I've read and listened to books, podcasts, taken drugs, got more advice than a normal person should ever get in a lifetime - still, success is limited. NOTHING is more on my mind than the struggle for self improvement. You are arguing against self-pitty and that is usually a good idea. It took me a while to recognize it as a destructive force. But it has also lead me to the conclusion, that noone can help me. The question remains: If you don't believe in your own healing, or that you deserve to be happy - how can you ever get better with ANY treatment ?
What you are saying about trauma is interesting, and that you have to tackle everything at the same time. It feels exactly like this because if you don't the negative forces just occupy another space. It's like squeezing a water filled balloon....
I think i have a better understanding about what you mean with "choice" ....you have to WANT it. But how do i learn to want it if i believe i don't deserve it?
jbark, that is the reason i put it in quotation marks. From an outside perspective it appears to be rather easy to solve "just pull yourself together" or "Man up!" . But is it practical? Jamie says that it is "your choice". I don't know. I mean, it should be..
Thanks for sharing this most intimate story. Good to know you got through it. I also know there is value in positive thinking. I've experienced it myself. Neuroplasticity ftw i'd say. What i find so problematic is to find the strength to rewire yourself amidst dire circumstances ... think losing family support, no job qualification paired with chronic "mental illness", not being able to finish my degree because of this crap etc...
Yes Amygdala, i think so too and its the direction im taking. Reframing everything as good as possible and taking a more "zen" like approach. Also kinda resonates with what can be learned from psychedelics. Your near death experience sounds like it was the start of a new life. Too bad you had to experience this in order to gain this insight. I've had that too at one point: "Why not live my life and experience it the way it is..im going to die anyway!"...but it did not have that great an effect on me, but then - not much has.
Akasha224
Glad you could break free from this religious culture you couldn't agree with. My whole biological family is religious and it's the #1 thing that binds them together. I think there is only one other person who isn't christian and he also suffers. While their religion helps them to experience community, it makes me feel like an outcast.
PrimalWisdom
You're telling me not everyone is miserable? No, seriously...that is a concept which is very very hard for me to understand. I'Ve been depressed for literally half my life now and all my "adult life" so i have very poor memory of what it actually feels like to be not depressed. But i think im at a point now where i can admit that i'm chronically depressed, that it is a very serious situation to be in, an that episodes in which i feel better are not the end all be all but rahter mild upward trends for brief periods of time.
I've watched several talks now, thanks for the suggestions. The one from Berkley was most interesting. The Andrew Solomon one... i don't know. Personally, i don't really see the stigma of depression. I mean, its usually not something i like to discuss with someone in person, but for me, it's the norm.
What does that even mean? Is it a figure of speech or to be taken literally?
Jamie
...but what about people who feel like they are constantly trying to improve and work on their problems without going anywhere? I've read and listened to books, podcasts, taken drugs, got more advice than a normal person should ever get in a lifetime - still, success is limited. NOTHING is more on my mind than the struggle for self improvement. You are arguing against self-pitty and that is usually a good idea. It took me a while to recognize it as a destructive force. But it has also lead me to the conclusion, that noone can help me. The question remains: If you don't believe in your own healing, or that you deserve to be happy - how can you ever get better with ANY treatment ?
What you are saying about trauma is interesting, and that you have to tackle everything at the same time. It feels exactly like this because if you don't the negative forces just occupy another space. It's like squeezing a water filled balloon....
I think i have a better understanding about what you mean with "choice" ....you have to WANT it. But how do i learn to want it if i believe i don't deserve it?
jbark, that is the reason i put it in quotation marks. From an outside perspective it appears to be rather easy to solve "just pull yourself together" or "Man up!" . But is it practical? Jamie says that it is "your choice". I don't know. I mean, it should be..
Thanks for sharing this most intimate story. Good to know you got through it. I also know there is value in positive thinking. I've experienced it myself. Neuroplasticity ftw i'd say. What i find so problematic is to find the strength to rewire yourself amidst dire circumstances ... think losing family support, no job qualification paired with chronic "mental illness", not being able to finish my degree because of this crap etc...
Yes Amygdala, i think so too and its the direction im taking. Reframing everything as good as possible and taking a more "zen" like approach. Also kinda resonates with what can be learned from psychedelics. Your near death experience sounds like it was the start of a new life. Too bad you had to experience this in order to gain this insight. I've had that too at one point: "Why not live my life and experience it the way it is..im going to die anyway!"...but it did not have that great an effect on me, but then - not much has.
Akasha224
Glad you could break free from this religious culture you couldn't agree with. My whole biological family is religious and it's the #1 thing that binds them together. I think there is only one other person who isn't christian and he also suffers. While their religion helps them to experience community, it makes me feel like an outcast.
PrimalWisdom
You're telling me not everyone is miserable? No, seriously...that is a concept which is very very hard for me to understand. I'Ve been depressed for literally half my life now and all my "adult life" so i have very poor memory of what it actually feels like to be not depressed. But i think im at a point now where i can admit that i'm chronically depressed, that it is a very serious situation to be in, an that episodes in which i feel better are not the end all be all but rahter mild upward trends for brief periods of time.
obliguhl said:
Maybe a good starting point would be to stop struggling for self improvement. If there is nothing more on your mind than that, perhaps it is not contributing to your well being.
I have been diagnosed with depression in the past, my mother takes meds for depression and my father has self medicated for more than half of his life.
The main effect of the seroxat that i was prescribed was that i got less stressed about certain situations that got me down. I stopped taking the paroxetine but tried to keep hold of the idea of shrugging my shoulders about certain aspects of my character and mental well being. While i am not the perfect example of a human being, i believe that not giving so much of a sh*t about my personal development, and things in general, has served me well (along with the mother of all slaps round the head in the shape of a near fatal road traffic accident).
obliguhl said:
Falling in love with yourself sounds like some generic cliched self help term, but i have to say that i agree with it.
I went camping once with some people that i didnt know too well and we didnt have much in common apart from liking motorbikes (we went to watch a Grand Prix). One of them made some sarky comment about me being weird and i started feeling uncomfortable (i was quite stoned) and began to wish that i had a good friend with me. Or maybe another version of myself to mentally bounce off of. It dawned on me that i liked my own company and therefore must like myself. Not only that but i was with a person that i liked all along. It was one of my top 5 "road to Damascus" moments. I was definitely a happier person after that.
Funnily enough a lot of my road to damascus moments seem to relate to not giving a toss about all the uncomfortable mental baggage that i havw accumulated over the years. I am a weird self indulgent, self analytical loner. But it doesnt matter as i am comfortable with it. The comfort reflects outwards so i become more comfortable with the different types of people that i encounter in my life .
Maybe all that i have written above doesn"t apply to depression. Maybe i was mis-diagnosed, and all i had was a case of low self esteem. I do not know for sure.
Speaking only from personal experience shame has been a huge hurdle for me when it comes to depression. The dharma seals, support of friends, family, and therapists, and lots and lots and lots of psychedelics helped me get some perspective on things.
Now I manage my depression mostly with daily exercise.
Now I manage my depression mostly with daily exercise.
It is probably true as this ongoing tension creates a lot of struggle. After listening to this http://www.pathwaytohappiness.com/sound_files/not_good_enough.mp3 (by Gary van Wamerdam The Awareness and Consciousness Podcast | Pathway to Happiness) i felt a lot better but then "reality" crept back in. Self improvement is strongly linked to survival for me. I'm not good enough, therefore i'm depressed, deserve to be depressed and the apocalypse continues. Conclusion: I need to get better. And i do need to get better because my deficits are 1. keeping me from attaining the most basioc needs and 2. Make people who are around me suffer which also leads to a loss of social connections - what i crave the most. There are several catch-22s intertwined ...
I would assume that comorbidity is quite high with depression. I appear to have a bundle of metal health problems, which are kinda influencing each other. Once one of them gets better, the other takes reign with full force. Once i calm myself down with sedatives, i get depressed...once i take stimulants i get anxious. IF i don't take anything it oscillates between depressed and anxious. Usually a period of being really anxious, then breaking down and getting depressed.
Now this has gotten personal but i don't know. Just feels like i'm a rotten branch of a tree, ready to be pruned.
obliguhl said:
Just out of curiosity, are you taking any prescription medication/doing any other drugs now? I found that when I was going through phases where I felt as if I was losing my mind, I literally just stopped putting anything in my body for a few weeks, tried to eat healthy and exercise, etc., and I felt much better. It sucked having to give up pot for almost a month (I usually smoke every day), but it was worth it in the end.
nen888 said:
Nen888
Thank you for your kind words... Indeed if we are able to find and create our own meaning we can perhaps cultivate a feeling of contentment versus a feeling of despair.
Much Peace and Happiness
jamie said:
^this! And if you carry a lot of childhood trauma into adult life, chances are you're still digging that ditch with every decision you make. At that point, I think it takes a lot of luck just to bring you to that state where you can make a choice.
Love ceases to be the answer, not because it wouldn't work, but because so much of it would be needed, and more often than not, very little is offered to those suffering from depression. You get a shot at it when you're a child and, supposedly, receive unconditional love from the caretakers; after that, not so much:|
So the road ahead is often more trauma, until the proverbial rock bottom is eventually reached (if ever). Even if one hits rock bottom and a shift in perspective results from the impact, the odds are still very much against the individual, as he probably has no support system in place (which is what made the free fall possible in the first place). As such, he'll probably lurk close to the bottom until he gets a break (maybe never).
* As for the suicide option, people always find reasons not to do it. Who's gonna feed the pet, who's gonna wet the garden, what will people think of me etc etc. But the fact is, it's not an easy thing to do, regardless of how much you dislike your life and whether there is anything keeping you here (other than your own survival instinct). I knew a guy who was in the Air Force for a while, and he was telling me how some of the guys had to be pushed out of the planethe first time, because they simply could not make themselves jump, parachute and all.
Ha ha - yes Donline! That's it in a nutshell.
I've also struggled with depression/addiction/eating disorders/social phobia/severe anxiety...oh gosh, for my entire life. Yes, I was even a difficult grumpy baby. And I have often had suicidal thoughts and continue to have them almost daily. The bottom line for me, is that I know how it would devastate those around me - even if in my dark moments I don't feel they actually like me that much.
There is a whole load I could go into about depression, suicide, and how I keep myself alive on a daily basis, but Donline reminded me of an Ayahuasca journey...during the journey, all my self-hatred rose to the surface; I was the vilest, most disgusting, most pathetic human who ever lived. I didn't deserve to exist. But then as I tumbled into the hell-pit of self-loathing, a little bubble of laughter started to creep in. I realised that I haven't ever murdered anyone, haven't sent thousands to their death in an illegal foreign war, destroyed any ancient civilisations over commerce, sold any weapons of mass destruction. I've certainly done some things that I'm not proud of, been unreasonable, and mightily pissed people off in my time. I can be pretty grumpy and hard work to be around sometimes...but actually I'm just a pretty average person who's just trying to get through life and do the right thing (whatever that is). The journey ended with a very giggly half hour as it dawned on me that my self-hatred was deeply ridiculous. And also rather egocentric ha ha
There are still many ups and downs - other things that help keep me on track, in order of importance are: 1) getting enough sleep, 2) getting a decent amount of exercise, 3) making sure I make the effort with friendships and general social interaction 4) noticing when I'm letting my imagination run away with me (i.e. spiralling paranoia over a somewhat cold text from a friend, over-interpreting lack of contact from a relative etc.).
I dunno - all I can say is keep on keeping on! Life is defined by change; no matter how bad the current moment is, it will change and the next moment will be different, and so will the next...You might as well find out what those moments will be.
Sending lots of love to all us depressed people. It's a totally rational response to a socially messed up world but it's on us not to let that rob us of the rays of sunlight that sometimes appear and give ourselves a break.
That's it in a nutshell.I've also struggled with depression/addiction/eating disorders/social phobia/severe anxiety...oh gosh, for my entire life. Yes, I was even a difficult grumpy baby. And I have often had suicidal thoughts and continue to have them almost daily. The bottom line for me, is that I know how it would devastate those around me - even if in my dark moments I don't feel they actually like me that much.
There is a whole load I could go into about depression, suicide, and how I keep myself alive on a daily basis, but Donline reminded me of an Ayahuasca journey...during the journey, all my self-hatred rose to the surface; I was the vilest, most disgusting, most pathetic human who ever lived. I didn't deserve to exist. But then as I tumbled into the hell-pit of self-loathing, a little bubble of laughter started to creep in. I realised that I haven't ever murdered anyone, haven't sent thousands to their death in an illegal foreign war, destroyed any ancient civilisations over commerce, sold any weapons of mass destruction. I've certainly done some things that I'm not proud of, been unreasonable, and mightily pissed people off in my time. I can be pretty grumpy and hard work to be around sometimes...but actually I'm just a pretty average person who's just trying to get through life and do the right thing (whatever that is). The journey ended with a very giggly half hour as it dawned on me that my self-hatred was deeply ridiculous
. And also rather egocentric ha ha There are still many ups and downs - other things that help keep me on track, in order of importance are: 1) getting enough sleep, 2) getting a decent amount of exercise, 3) making sure I make the effort with friendships and general social interaction 4) noticing when I'm letting my imagination run away with me (i.e. spiralling paranoia over a somewhat cold text from a friend, over-interpreting lack of contact from a relative etc.).
I dunno - all I can say is keep on keeping on! Life is defined by change; no matter how bad the current moment is, it will change and the next moment will be different, and so will the next...You might as well find out what those moments will be.
Sending lots of love to all us depressed people. It's a totally rational response to a socially messed up world but it's on us not to let that rob us of the rays of sunlight that sometimes appear and give ourselves a break.
Here's another approach to treating depression, with some success:
http://www.massgeneral.org/about/newsarticle.aspx?id=4359
IME, it does have clear mood-elevating effects; the first couple of sessions are pretty brutal but the benefits do appear promptly with persistence.
http://www.massgeneral.org/about/newsarticle.aspx?id=4359
IME, it does have clear mood-elevating effects; the first couple of sessions are pretty brutal but the benefits do appear promptly with persistence.
Obliguhl. I've observed this topic and read most of your posts in it.
I found it very familiar what you describe, as I seem to be in the same abbyss as you are in.
I have happy, lighthearted periods, but emotionally hurtfull events also tend to trigger long term, terrifyingly deep depressions in me. I'm going through one right now. It started almost a year ago now.
I too have found most conventional ways and advices to be futile. But I have a warrior in me. A mentality that remembers my former glory, happiness and radiance and will go high and low to get back there. Or die trying.
It is something I was very strongly unified with in several Mushroom and DMT experiences. A face covered in cuts, bruises, blood, mud....with the biggest, most satisfied grin on it ever. It is the only thing holding me together.
If anything can heal us, bring us back to our former mental health and keep us there it is that mentality.
I hope you know what mentality I speak of, Obliguhl. Seek it out and hold on to it for dear life.
I found it very familiar what you describe, as I seem to be in the same abbyss as you are in.
I have happy, lighthearted periods, but emotionally hurtfull events also tend to trigger long term, terrifyingly deep depressions in me. I'm going through one right now. It started almost a year ago now.
I too have found most conventional ways and advices to be futile. But I have a warrior in me. A mentality that remembers my former glory, happiness and radiance and will go high and low to get back there. Or die trying.
It is something I was very strongly unified with in several Mushroom and DMT experiences. A face covered in cuts, bruises, blood, mud....with the biggest, most satisfied grin on it ever. It is the only thing holding me together.
If anything can heal us, bring us back to our former mental health and keep us there it is that mentality.
I hope you know what mentality I speak of, Obliguhl. Seek it out and hold on to it for dear life.
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