Is there an optimal amount of THH to reach the best effects, or do you just need enough for it to fully work, when you do pharmahuasca?
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THH amounts in pharmahuasca?
- Thread starter polytrip
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69ron
Esteemed member
For SWIM 200 mg orally is perfection. It can work at lower doses though. I think 150 mg is probably the lowest you can use for somewhat decent effects.
Pharmahuasca made with DMT and THH is quite an experience. It’s SWIM’s favorite pharmahuasca combination. It has none of the brain fog or “mind fuck” of most other pharmahuasca combinations. Your mind feels supercharged with energy and thoughts come real easily. It leaves your mind very focused and clear, giving you a lot of mind control in the experience. It’s amazing.
One of the best psychedelic experiences SWIM has had recently was from this combination. I highly recommend trying it at least once.
Pharmahuasca made with DMT and THH is quite an experience. It’s SWIM’s favorite pharmahuasca combination. It has none of the brain fog or “mind fuck” of most other pharmahuasca combinations. Your mind feels supercharged with energy and thoughts come real easily. It leaves your mind very focused and clear, giving you a lot of mind control in the experience. It’s amazing.
One of the best psychedelic experiences SWIM has had recently was from this combination. I highly recommend trying it at least once.
soulman
Rising Star
In swims bid to get aya/pharmahuasca to work for him he plans to figure which component he is insensitive to as advised by a board member. SWIM suspects he is insensitive to the MAOI component as he has no problems with small doses of dmt when smoking spice/changa.
So, during his research he came across this
"Michael Valentine Smith suggests in Psychedelic Chemistry that harmaline and harmine are both active at about 200 mg. oral dosage. Jeremy Bigwood disputes this, saying that to get effective potentiation from the hydrochloride salts an adult should swallow at least 300 mg. harmaline or 500 mg. harmine. Shulgin puts the "effective dose range" of harmaline at 70 to 100 mg. intravenously or 300 to 400 mg. orally."
from here http://www.biopark.org/peru/Ayaharmaline.html
In light of this he plans to take 300-400mg of harmaline and hope that this will finally allow him to journey.
He has some THH and some harmaline x5 tincture. Would it be better to take 300-400mg of one type of MAOI or would there be any benifit in taking a combination of the two?
So, during his research he came across this
"Michael Valentine Smith suggests in Psychedelic Chemistry that harmaline and harmine are both active at about 200 mg. oral dosage. Jeremy Bigwood disputes this, saying that to get effective potentiation from the hydrochloride salts an adult should swallow at least 300 mg. harmaline or 500 mg. harmine. Shulgin puts the "effective dose range" of harmaline at 70 to 100 mg. intravenously or 300 to 400 mg. orally."
from here http://www.biopark.org/peru/Ayaharmaline.html
In light of this he plans to take 300-400mg of harmaline and hope that this will finally allow him to journey.
He has some THH and some harmaline x5 tincture. Would it be better to take 300-400mg of one type of MAOI or would there be any benifit in taking a combination of the two?
69ron
Esteemed member
300-400mg of harmaline! Holy crap! That's WAY TOO MUCH. I think those guys don't know what they're talking about. Maybe they incorrectly take the DMT after taking the harmala alkaloids and that's why they need such huge amounts. If you take it at the same time as the DMT you don't need as much as that. 200 mg harmine, 200 mg THH, or 100 mg harmaline is all most people need.
soulman
Rising Star
69ron said:
Well I thought that this sounded like alot too, but this is coming from the granddad of chemicals good ol’ Shuglin!!!
Also, anyone who has read my previous posts on the topic know that I have a hard time getting it to work. I have concluded that i have a high amount of MAO enzymes.
My last pharma attempt consisted of 140mg of thh plus 3 drops of x5 harmaline tincture. Each drop contains 75mg of harmaline apparently so thats 365mg altogether according to my calculations.
Admittedly i did not take the dmt at the same time, but surely that should be enough to sufficiently inhibit right.
Someone on another thread had said that you will know when you have had enough harmaline as you will feel it and get like shimmery tracers.
I have had this once before with rue but does this happen at higher doses of caapi or thh?
69ron
Esteemed member
soulman said:
Forgot all that stuff. It’s old rumors which SWIM’s tests found to be essentially wrong. Take it at the same time. The MAOI effects of the harmalas in the stomach are very short acting. Don’t wait for the effects of the harmala alkaloids to be felt. If you feel the harmalas, that means the MAOI effects in the stomach are already disappearing.
lonewolf123
Rising Star
69ron said:
So how much spice would swiy use with 200 mg thh? And it could be administered by combining the thh and dmt in a cup of warm water and lemon juice? swims seen a bunch of different info and isnt sure the route to take,... but swim has all the ingredients ready to go and isnt sure what route to take.... thanks
So swim tried 30/30 dmt/thh sublingual instead, nothing happened.... He only ordered 200mg of thh so next time it will be 30/170 in warm water and lemon
Garulfo
Rising Star
I'm surprised about the amount suggested.
SWIM get undoubted effects from only 25 mg sublingual of a THH with smoked DMT. The experience lasted at least twice the usual duration of the spice without FV extract.
But it seems from what you are saying that this dosages do not apply to pharmuasca and 10x more is required ?
It's like if the amount of MAOI must be related to the amount of DMT ?
However, with 20 mg harmine+harmaline sublingual extract, SWIM felt a pretty strong nausea, so he is really hesitant about a 200 mg dose !
Is the oral route less 'nauseating' ?
SWIM get undoubted effects from only 25 mg sublingual of a THH with smoked DMT. The experience lasted at least twice the usual duration of the spice without FV extract.
But it seems from what you are saying that this dosages do not apply to pharmuasca and 10x more is required ?
It's like if the amount of MAOI must be related to the amount of DMT ?
However, with 20 mg harmine+harmaline sublingual extract, SWIM felt a pretty strong nausea, so he is really hesitant about a 200 mg dose !
Is the oral route less 'nauseating' ?
lonewolf123 said:
You're going to have to experiment. Pharma works differently on every person. Some need 25-50mg of spice for good effects, I need 200mg+ to get to a good space. I don't feel anything under about 125mg, and it took me 4-5 times before I found the right dose. Just going to have to start slow and work your way up.
I get little to no nausea from oral. Sometimes for about 10 minutes, but thats it.
rild
rild
Ayahuasca for my wife has about 56 mg harmine and 24 mg harmaline and she journeys for about 6 hours. I do about 300 mg of harmine, 90 mg of harmaline, and 100 mg of THH and finish at least an hour earlier. If I add THH to her Ayahuasca, she has intense vertigo. She takes 36 mg of DMT and is traveling in less than 15 minutes. I take most of the beta carbolines, wait 20 minutes, then take the rest of the BC’s and about 80 mg of DMT. Then I start a journey in about 45 minutes. Or I can vape another 20 mg of DMT for a push start.
I weigh about 30 percent more than her. We have had guests drink more than I. Everybody is different. Have extra ready and keep drinking or vaping till you are on your way.
For me at least, the THH is a great addition
I weigh about 30 percent more than her. We have had guests drink more than I. Everybody is different. Have extra ready and keep drinking or vaping till you are on your way.
For me at least, the THH is a great addition
69ron said:
Isn't giving a gap of around 15 minute better than taking together? - Letting the RIMAs do some of their effect first (whether it's felt) so that DMT is least wasted? On reddit i had read recommendations of giving gap (harmalas -> DMT) but the above quoted is different point of view.Jorkest said:
I had around 12 hour experience when i overdosed on tea of Peganum harmala seeds.69ron said:
Yesterday took 111 mg of harmaline, just only that, and it was taxing to the level of not funny anymore. Solo components are just different as when they are in combination with other 'brothers'. This skews many visions about how much this and that and mixes of things. Take on top of that personal differences and each statement holds little more advice than just a personal testimony.
In this thread a one says to go for 200 to 300 harmaline, given my above experience there's no need to tell this is really insane imho, and Ron69 remark was spot on.
But I also differ from ron69 as he flares up THH and finds the others not so worthy, well to me harmine beats THH in overall quality (not duration though). But that's juts me, and for now.
About the time gap: why 2 camps like yes-gap or no-gap? I do both by pre-dosing. First goes a 100 harmine + any wanted amount of THH (100 mg sounds cute). Then 2 hours later a 150 harmine (freebase) in water + the deems in a cap. No taste :thumb_up:
The pre dose harmine is just to pave the internal ways, its maoi is of no concern if it dies in the 2 hours. The pre-dose THH will stay active for the next at least 9 hours (its half time more or less), so here you're set.
Then after 1.5 to max 2 hours the final 150 harmine + capped deems glides in on the red carpeted situation. So the burden is spread out, for not having the stomach bombarded all at once with all of the alkaloids.
Then: people talk so easily as if they have nicely their harmine, harmaline and THH and talk about it like pure compounds. Over confidence I recon as it is VERY hard to separate them all within a decent margin of contam. I even remember a relevant person here claiming to reduce all of his harmine to THH with zinc :shock: , go figure.
In this thread a one says to go for 200 to 300 harmaline, given my above experience there's no need to tell this is really insane imho, and Ron69 remark was spot on.
But I also differ from ron69 as he flares up THH and finds the others not so worthy, well to me harmine beats THH in overall quality (not duration though). But that's juts me, and for now.
About the time gap: why 2 camps like yes-gap or no-gap? I do both by pre-dosing. First goes a 100 harmine + any wanted amount of THH (100 mg sounds cute). Then 2 hours later a 150 harmine (freebase) in water + the deems in a cap. No taste :thumb_up:
The pre dose harmine is just to pave the internal ways, its maoi is of no concern if it dies in the 2 hours. The pre-dose THH will stay active for the next at least 9 hours (its half time more or less), so here you're set.
Then after 1.5 to max 2 hours the final 150 harmine + capped deems glides in on the red carpeted situation. So the burden is spread out, for not having the stomach bombarded all at once with all of the alkaloids.
Then: people talk so easily as if they have nicely their harmine, harmaline and THH and talk about it like pure compounds. Over confidence I recon as it is VERY hard to separate them all within a decent margin of contam. I even remember a relevant person here claiming to reduce all of his harmine to THH with zinc :shock: , go figure.
rild
rild
Probably me using the word ‘all’ a little loose. Had about 85 percent THH from my zinc tek with a bit of both harmine and harmaline. I was expecting much less than 85 percent. My harmine/harmaline extracts came out about 65/35 and 35/65.
When I drink either the harmine or harmaline, I need at least 330 mg. At up to about 500 mg of THH, I go nowhere (even with the 15 percent of other harmalas in my THH). The THH does not do it for me as a MAOI. The THH also is a poor MAOI when vaped. But I very much like about 60 to 100 mg added to the drink.
When I drink either the harmine or harmaline, I need at least 330 mg. At up to about 500 mg of THH, I go nowhere (even with the 15 percent of other harmalas in my THH). The THH does not do it for me as a MAOI. The THH also is a poor MAOI when vaped. But I very much like about 60 to 100 mg added to the drink.
syberdelic
Rising Star
From my research, in order to replicate traditional caapi/chakruna ayahuasca, you would want a 2:3:1 combination of THH/harmine/DMT. Of course this is a ball park estimation as all brews are a little different. And of course, there is the issue that with larger doses of DMT, you will get a massive dose of harmine and THH.
A more tailored pharmahuasca (for a 175lb. person) would be 200mg harmine, and enough THH and DMT to get you where you want to go. I have no experience with purified THH, but it does seem that 200mg is plenty. 75mg DMT orally for me is enough for a moderately heavy trip. 150-200mg would likely put me in or near hyperspace.
A more tailored pharmahuasca (for a 175lb. person) would be 200mg harmine, and enough THH and DMT to get you where you want to go. I have no experience with purified THH, but it does seem that 200mg is plenty. 75mg DMT orally for me is enough for a moderately heavy trip. 150-200mg would likely put me in or near hyperspace.
Aum_Shanti
Rising Star
Well, as I understood it, 69ron never actually really had THH. There was this shady story here, when people got aware that a vendor selling THH actually did sell Harmine (or was it Harmaline?) and some claim/suggest 69ron itself was the vendor or closely related to it.
That's also why there are some wrong THH experience reports from that time.
In relation to dosing: From reading many threads, it seems dosage needed for MAO inhibition can drastically vary from person to person. It seems like some few individuals have way more MAO in their body naturally than others, so they also need way more MAOIs for the same effect.
But IMHO you can easily test that by taking the MAOIs pure and see, if you attain the right pure Harmala experience.
Indeed, I remember that FV story too.
I agree that subjectivity is huge, and even within a one life's trajectory the dosages likely shift over time, several become more sensitive and needing less over time.
Another thing is that a purge can happen and might expel like half of active dosage if the purge happens in the early stages. I've had sessions nearly aborted due that.
For me 100 THH combined into a pharma does a good job and I think it's 90% pure at least (microscopically verified crystals).
I agree that subjectivity is huge, and even within a one life's trajectory the dosages likely shift over time, several become more sensitive and needing less over time.
Another thing is that a purge can happen and might expel like half of active dosage if the purge happens in the early stages. I've had sessions nearly aborted due that.
For me 100 THH combined into a pharma does a good job and I think it's 90% pure at least (microscopically verified crystals).
There are alot of great updated posts in this thread. Like Jees mentions, 100mg is a good level, but I tend to agree with the levels proposed by 69ron in post #2, which also tend to match the levels found in the religious vegetal (but not plant) studies. It's all a matter of preference...either to be like the vegetal concotions or to be identical to the plant itself, which would be more reflective of the lower levels. There is no right or wrong answer. As can be even seen from the callaway plant study below, a few variety of caapi had unusually large levels of thh naturally. It all forms a bigger part of a greater mystery as to how the vegetals transform the plant's alkaloid concentrations across harmine, thh and harmaline, there are obviously some transformations taking place during the vegetals long boiling process with respect to a portion of the harmaline into thh via hydrogen donation as discussed on page 4 of 5 in the 1st Callaway decoctions study...with only harmine remaining unphased.
Attached "Concoctions" paper from Dr. Callaway (chart on page 2) shows the levels of thh, harmaline, and harmine found in 30 brews (from the religious vegetal groups) that were studied. Multiply each figure x 100 to get the milligram level of each in the 100ml brew.
examples from the chart:
UDV---brew 1: 183mg thh, 9mg harmaline, 172mg harmine
UDV---brew 18: 163mg thh, 30mg harmaline, 180mg harmine
Shuar-brew 29: 163mg thh, 0mg harmaline, 180mg harmine
When Dr. Callaway took an average of all 30 brews he found to his amazement that there was a consistent near equal ratio of thh to harmine in the "vegetal brews" as opposed to a 1:5 ratio of thh to harmine in the actual plant itself (see page 4 of study). Harmaline was found to be present at around 1/10th the value of harmine. The 3 alkaloids obviously work together in mutual benefit, and as we all know 3 herbs together can be more powerful than just one, perhaps one of the secrets of caapi?
Attached "Concoctions" paper from Dr. Callaway (chart on page 2) shows the levels of thh, harmaline, and harmine found in 30 brews (from the religious vegetal groups) that were studied. Multiply each figure x 100 to get the milligram level of each in the 100ml brew.
examples from the chart:
UDV---brew 1: 183mg thh, 9mg harmaline, 172mg harmine
UDV---brew 18: 163mg thh, 30mg harmaline, 180mg harmine
Shuar-brew 29: 163mg thh, 0mg harmaline, 180mg harmine
When Dr. Callaway took an average of all 30 brews he found to his amazement that there was a consistent near equal ratio of thh to harmine in the "vegetal brews" as opposed to a 1:5 ratio of thh to harmine in the actual plant itself (see page 4 of study). Harmaline was found to be present at around 1/10th the value of harmine. The 3 alkaloids obviously work together in mutual benefit, and as we all know 3 herbs together can be more powerful than just one, perhaps one of the secrets of caapi?