Trisodium Phosphate

[Hyperspace Fool]

Does anyone out there have any knowledge about whether Trisodium Phosphate (sometimes called just Sodium Phosphate) is an appropriate base for A/B or STB extractions?

Oddly enough, it is sold in German speaking countries as Lauge (Lye), presumably because it serves the same purpose. It is very basic to be sure. Not quite as much as NaOH, but it is known to get over 12 PH.

SWIM's main worry is that Phosphates seem to be frowned upon for reasons SWIM cannot discern.

If Trisodium is workable, it may actually be superior to NaOH in that it is considerably less toxic and caustic. In fact, it is my understanding that some atheletes even use it as a performance enhancer and consume the stuff directly with no overly obvious negative effects. It is also a well known chelating agent, which has been used medicinally as a method of removing heavy metals from the body.

Obviously, SWIM is no O-Chem major, and has no time to become one... but does understand basic chemistry enough to follow discussions about the subject without losing the thread too often.



Thanx in advance.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

Hmmm... No one?

Not impatient mind you, SWIM was just hoping to get some feedback before potentially wasting material.

Side note: Is there any reason why people seem to frown on Zippo Premium Lighter Fluid for the Naptha component? It certainly evaps quickly and cleanly...

 

[۩]

I am not educated enough to answer your question regarding the Trisodium Phosphate, I hope another more chemistry inclined member sees this post soon and can answer you.

If your lighter fluid evaporates clean, I can't see why it could not be used for an extraction.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it.

I also figure the lighter fluid should be fine. And it seems that as far as being alkaline enough, the trisodium should be fine as well. The concern is only that this specific chemical might cause some unwanted reactions or precipitate into the naptha... It seems unlikely though. As you said, hopefully some other posters with chemistry knowledge will chime in.

 

[Mindlusion]

Hello and welcome,

Ive never used trisodium phosphate in an extraction, or have tested it at all, it is a common hardware store product around here. and from what I know about the substance, it can be safely used to basify in an extraction without causing any harmful side effects whatsoever.

It is known to be quite alkaline, moreso then sodium carbonate, and i hear is sometimes used in place of NaOH for soap making and such.

Since you cannot find NaOH, I suggest you go ahead and try this.

You MAY get it to work with a STB, but I can almost guarantee this will work with an A/B extraction.

So good luck, im curious to hear your results, this could come in handy for other members in search of NaOH!

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

Wow thanks!

SWIM will give it a shot, and I will post SWIM's anectdotal experience here once there is something to report.

While curious about the STB concept, I believe SWIM is shooting for an A/B extraction.

One bonus I can say for sure is that Trisodium Phosphate doesn't seem to have the exothermic reactions that NaOH does. No flash heating, bubbling over, and as such i imagine the danger of a catastrophic glass shattering spill is negligible. Who knows, it might become the substance de jour for A/B teks....

 

[Noman]

It's worth a shot, but IME, pH12 isn't high enough for proper basification of an A/B, let alone an STB, and I'm going to bet that TSP will give you separation problems with NP solvents.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

UPDATE:

SWIM went ahead and gave it a try. It seems one needs more grams of Trisodium Phosphate than one would need of NaOH, but it certainly turns the filtered vinegar-water infusion black. It went grey and brown to dark coal grey and then black. The 1st jar was fairly vinegary and turned completely black. The 2nd jar was MOSTLY vinegar with some warm water and never got as clearly black as the 1st. After pouring an insane amount of TSP into it, SWIM decided it was still a tiny bit greyish (still very black) and cloudy in comparison to the 1st mostly because of the volumes of TSP dissolved into it. Heehehhe. As a test, a 3rd smaller jar was prepared with much more watery material. This turned black immediately with very little TSP.

It is SWIM's understanding that blackness occurs at 11 ph, and that an insufficient ph results in seperation problems. No problems here. Seperation occurs nearly immediately. Reading about the hours some people wait, SWIM was relatively astounded that even the somewhat cloudy charcoal grey jar #2 seperated in one or two minutes. There was minor emulsion, but that was easy to clear up without even resorting to salt. Just running hot tap water on the outside of the jar that SWIM shook like mad just to see what would happen settled everything nicely.

The strength of the extractions and deepness of the purple was roughly in line with the vinegar levels, and jar 2 was the darkest and most potent of the tests. Perhaps this has an effect, but SWIM is confident that the amount of vinegar in each solution corresponds directly to the amount of TSP needed (obviously) to reach a sufficient PH. While many people advocate super high PH levels reaching to 13 or so, many teks seem to indicate that good spice can be gotten at as low as 9. Given this range the turning black point of 11 seems reasonable, and TSP can certainly achieve that.

Of course, the proof is in the pulling. (hehehe)

So after freeze precip, another update will follow. It certainly seems at this point, though, that TSP is a very viable candidate for A/B Teks. It is much less caustic than Lye and unlikely to burn the hell out of you even at high concentrations, so it could be that it is actually superior. SWIM is considering using less vinegar and heating his initial extractions longer in the future. The fear of oxidizing his material (into non-crystalizing n-oxide) or destroying some spice by getting up to 60 degrees C (g-d forbid) gives some reticence... though SWIM knows a number of shaman types and ayahuasqueros who seem to boil their materials for hours on end and still get results. Of course, for huasca purposes, n-oxide might actually be a plus.


Thanks to everyone who chimed in... and another report will follow.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

So. I can now report that:

Trisodium Phosphate Works!

Even with SWIM's mostly vinegar jar, TSP is basic enough to not only turn the solution black and make for super easy seperation (though that might have something to do with the chosen solvent as well IMO)... but spice of a wonder-full efficacy was achieved.

This is actually an excellent choice for a base. As I have said previously, it is MUCH less dangerous in spill situations... and let's be honest, not every spice maker is always clinical or completely conscious. Besides many people seem to leave their jars of basified soup standing around for lengthy periods of time. Given the nexus of space-cadets and caustic material, accidents are bound to occur. SWIM has already gotten stray drops of pippette spray on his skin and was delighted that TSP is only an irritant and not likely to eat holes in him.

Anyway, there you have it. Unless some chemistry expert comes along and subsequently finds some reason to avoid it, SWIM gives a healthy 2 thumbs up for Trisodium Phosphate and its 12 PH.

 

[Mindlusion]

great to hear!

I have some TSP and now may just test it out in an extraction.

This is good news, from what i know pure TSP can be obtained in any hardware store. (Pure NaOH is not available here.)

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

UPDATE:

Thanks to this chemical reactions table http://www.nalgenelabware.com/techdata/chemical/index.asp [Thanks Nitegazer!], I can now say with certainty that TSP is MUCH safer to work with than NaOH as far as the types of plastics it can be stored in and come in contact with. The vast majority of the resins and plastics listed on the site showed absolutely no damage after 30 days of constant exposure at 20 C and only a few were contraindicated at 50 C (that is constant exposure for a month mind you).

This makes SWIM very happy. It means that his funnel which is lowly PP (not the vaunted HDPE needed for Lye) is fine for pouring his soup. This also means that he can use random plastic bags to insulate his caps... which seem to have wax, foam, paint, aluminum and other no no's in and around them. He has noticed paint and metal reactions when small amounts of TSP soup touched those areas. SWIM's soup was unaffected, but one can never be too careful.

At this point it seems that when using TSP the limiting factor for materials will be the Naptha.

SWIM has yet to attempt an STB with TSP, and seems to doubt its ability to break down the cells as effectively. A bit over 12 PH doesn't seem high enough. He is leaning towards attempting a Drytek with TSP though... will report back later.

 

[Simon Jester]

TSP works just fine as a base, I've used it in the absence of any other decent base and managed to get some decent pulls. It's a pain in the ass to work with, which is why I don't use it. It's about the same price as lime and more than a bunch of lye, which are easier to achieve good results with. If it's all you have though, it'll work.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

Simon

Are you saying that your yeilds were less with TSP?

What made it a pain in the ass to work with?

SWIM finds that the safety factors and increased amount of materials that are TSP friendly is a real bonus. For those without access to high quality lab glassware, or people who tend to be a bit clumsy, TSP eliminates some (not all mind you) of the dreaded worry associated with Lye.

As for price, that may be a consideration as you might have to use more TSP than you would NaOH or KOH to properly basify a highly acidic A/B soup.

 

[Simon Jester]

I've done most of my extractions with vinegar and lime, stirring in pans rather than shaking in jars. In this case (when substituting TSP for lime) it's hard to achieve the right consistency to do a decent pull. The basified mixture seems to want to suck up a lot more naptha than usual too.

If using it in shaken jars this isn't a problem, but it does really want to emulsify... and I so hate emulsions. I also found it to be a major pain to get the TSP granules to dissolve nicely (heat helps), but it's available in powder too.
------
I'm sorry, I seem to have missed the point of your thread earlier.

I have no way of analyzing my stuff, but spice extracted with TSP is just fine as far as I can tell. It's certainly just as potent and vaporizes clean.

 

[Noman]

Lye isn't really all that horrible to work with to be honest.
It'll burn you, but if you're careful that won't be an issue and if you keep it out of your eyes it will only superficially burn your skin as long as you have some vinegar handy to neutralize spills.
I used to work with hundreds of pounds at a time in a t shirt and jeans to no major ill effect.
That's not to say treat it lightly, but it's not like the stuff is plutonium.
That said, alternative bases would be nice to have around since meth makers and hysteria have made simple household compounds so hard to get.
What was your yield from this experiment?

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

Simon:

Difficult to say without doing a side by side comparison. SWIM never noticed any sucking up of naptha, and the minor emulsion he encountered was easily remedied... or would go away on its own by the time he got around to pippetting down to that most bottom layer. Of course, SWIM has no experience with Lime. He promises to keep an eye out for some, so he can do a comparison.

The question about yeild btw was about weight not potency per se... though they can interact to some degree. Whether you noticed achieving less spice from a similar amount of material with TSP is the question. This would be an important observation and would be an unwelcome trade off for the safety and availability of TSP.


Noman:

SWIM never found lye horrible to work with either... until he tried TSP. If you're careful, you shouldn't get burned. Sure. Yet, SWIM has had leaky caps, stray drops of base soup, and other issues. During this small experiment alone, SWIM came into brief contact with basic soup 2 or 3 times.

SWIM supposes that the benefit of not having to wear rubber gloves when working is alone a major benefit.

The other major benefits include no exo-thermic heat flashes. This means you can pour TSP into your soup far more quickly than you could lye.

AND, the vastly larger amounts of plastics and materials that TSP is safe to be in contact with. As I mentioned before, the only large funnel that SWIM has to work with at the moment is a no-no with lye, but perfectly fine with TSP.

Clearly, slowly mixing the NaOH with water, going to the store and buying some better equipment, and being careful are worthy trade offs if the result is better. As of now, SWIM can not say this for sure.

Unfortunately, due to the nature of the experiment, the seperate jars, variety of acid levels, pulls made at disparate points in time, and the sampling in the interim SWIM can only report that he achieved a decent amount of pure white crystals, a small amount of waxier off-white crystal goo, and a similarly small amount of pinkish crystal goo. All worked as one would expect with the divergent potencies. The pink stuff was evapped from the remainder of a pour-off early in the freeze precip to remove the oils and whatnot that had clearly sunk to the bottom before any serious crystalization had occurred. Another half-assed recrystalization took place sort of incidentally as SWIM let some early crystals redisolve a couple times before doing a full freeze precip. He had mistaken what must have been water ice for unbelievably huge crystals. While SWIM can not say for sure, he assumes the middle quality (white waxy crystal goo stuff) to be mixed with n-oxide, though it was not all that yellow. (The pinkish stuff was actually somewhat yellow, when viewed in bright light.)

Probably the biggest factor in being unable to ascertain yeilds accurately was the lack of a good scale. Also, SWIM didn't want to risk too much material for what could easily have been a failed experiment. In the end, 100g of MHRB gave up about what SWIM expected.

What can I say? SWIM was pretty ghetto about this, and way too broke to invest in anything to correct that situation.

 

[Carrierwave]

TSP is the biproduct of my excess phosphoric acid and sodium hydroxide I use in my A/B. It makes pretty sharp crystals that could be confused with DMT. Hate to see someone smoke TSP.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

TSP is the biproduct of my excess phosphoric acid and sodium hydroxide I use in my A/B. It makes pretty sharp crystals that could be confused with DMT. Hate to see someone smoke TSP.

Seems rather unlikely... TSP will not migrate into the NPS.

They only problem with TSP is that it is not quite as basic as one would want, and takes a good amount to basify an acidic solution jet black. But it does work... and it IS considerably safer than lye.