U.S. Search Warrants

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Hello

Does anyone have any history with law enforcement and/or know your rights when it comes to police searching your property? My friend keeps his supplies in a locked file cabinet and locking mini-freezer. He's had police in his house in the presence of these supplies while doing a quick look-around for alcohol. He says he wasn't worried and the police didn't open any cabinets or anything as they weren't aloud.

However, if an officer had a warrant to search a house, they could obviously go through any drawers and containers they want, right? How do they approach locked containers? Can they break them open/command them unlocked/taken away? Particularly if there's no direct reason for them to check the container, would a lock be an extra level of security in a warranted search?

I'm assuming they'd need probable cause to search the sealed container, like a dog or something. But let's say they have dogs go through the house... even for an unrelated reason such as searching for weed. Are they trained to sniff out anything in dmt extractions or would react to anything that's locked away?

Thanks, my friend is thinking of security and is debating whether it's more safe to keep supplies locked inside or in a duffel bag in the trunk of a vehicle. What do you guys do for security?

 

[Ice House]

If law enforcement officers have a warrant to search your house, they can search your house and ALL of its contents including locked storage places, ie safes, lockers, locked rooms closets etc. Popo can be nice and ask you for combinations and keys. They dont have to though. They can use whatever force they deem necessary to carry out the conditions of the warrant. Once they have the warrant you dont even need to be present. Anything in the house is subject to search even if it is property that doesnt belong to the homeowner. If it is in the house it is subject to search.

If the popo has a warrant to search your home you are already in deep shit. Popo usually cant get a warrant on suspicion. Normally when the execute a warrant its because they have already conductesd a very thorough investigation and they are just looking for some icing for their cake. If popo shows up at your house with a warrant you fucked up and you are probably going down even if the search nets nothing.

Dont give popo a reason to go to a judge for a search warrant.

 

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Dont give popo a reason to go to a judge for a search warrant.

Agreed. That's the rule my friend lives by, and the search they did for alcohol/weed they seemed satisfied with because they found some and got to print tickets for those people. They can't bust a party with weed and then weeks later come back with a warrant to search for narcotics, can they?(without any new evidence or reason)

Also do you know anything about dogs and dmt? Say the landlord or school or w/e runs a dog through the place for a whatever reason. In that case they only search what containers are targeted by the dog, so would keeping supplies locked up or in a car keep the dog from sniffing it. Obviously I know weed is an easy give away for a dog, but dmt/solvent...?

 

[adorno]

A few things, and please bear in mind I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about, I'm not a lawyer, or a LEO, nor do I have any other authority/qualifications which might ground my offering up of any of this as anything other than mere speculation.

First, we can just suppose all the various "clearnet" boards are monitored, but in the burgeoning era of "deep web" clandestine activities, I'd imagine places like these and the activities involved with them will have tended to fall to the bottom on the list of things they're after. Even so, this bears mentioning because one of the first things they'll probably do is nab your computer and start digging through it... Rigorous "deep web" policy, for example, goes so far as to suggest one never visit any "suspicious" websites without using an encrypted USB Linux boot and on some wireless network other than your own. This would probably be overkill for most of us, but if AFOAF is doing something which might merit a search warrant, then it would probably be commonsense.

Second, the consensus seems to be that you never say anything to LE ever, under any conditions, no matter what, without an attorney present. As Ice House pointed out, if they've got a search warrant, your friend is in deep trouble already, he can be sure they'll find whatever's in his house, as you can just imagine the pleasure they take in tearing a house apart. When your friend talks with his attorney, depending on what LE has found, there are all sorts of reasonable explanations he could offer up (and probably rightly so). Take the Nexus for example, most of us here are nothing more than hobby chemists/ethnobotanists, similar to our good friend, the home scientist. We might sometimes walk a grey line in all of this, but no more than he does. We never talk about the ingestion of illegal substances first hand, because most of us have never done this, rather we relate what others have told us with our silly SWIMMING shorthand, but only because we're fascinated by these reports, and what they'd suggest these plants we are working with might contain. The scientific literature is full of examples of people doing what we do for fun professionally, it shouldn't be that big of a deal, and it probably wouldn't be were it not for a few bad apples.

Third, if your friend isn't doing something insanely stupid like dealing, or cooking meth, whatever he's got in his house probably isn't so bad. He'd want to be careful with things like MHRB powder or San Pedro powder, but I could imagine certain situations were even something like that might be overlooked. This isn't to suggest that if your friend was in possession of such things, he shouldn't be very careful, it's just to suggest there is nothing wrong with being a hobby chemist. We're not MDMA cookers for crying out loud. We're interested in harmless stuff like extracting essential oils, analyzing plant makeups and alkaloid contents and fragrances, crazy stories we've heard through the grapevine about psychedelic intoxication, and so on. But again, another rule one often comes across is that you never sign for anything in the mail, and this would include especially MHRB, San Pedro, HBWR, etc.

I don't know what else I can tell you, and I very much doubt anything I've said has been of any help. Most LE, besides maybe the DEA or something, is going to have a very hard time making sense of a mason jar of Heptane in your friend's freezer, and the thing is, your friend wouldn't have to explain it anyways, he'd just have to tell them, "Look, I'd love to help you guys out, but a good friend of mine is an attorney, and he told me I shouldn't try and explain anything to LE ever without an attorney present, even if you guys are just trying to help me out."

I guess the big question I'd have on a thread like this, is whether anyone has ever run into any trouble ordering supplies for their hobby chemistry, you know?, maybe raised some red flags or something, mistakenly lumped in with the real the maniacs out there. I don't know brother... Just tell your friend to make sure his house is in order, and to remember never to say anything without an attorney present, meanwhile, remind him to remember a list in the back of his mind as to what each thing he's got was really for... And this would be another question I'd have on an a thread like this. Why do most of you have HCl, NaOH, separatory funnels, buchner funnels, Xylene, Heptane, Naptha, Acetone, and all rest in your houses? Again... I don't know, and I hope I didn't cross any lines suggesting otherwise here.

 

[scudge]

A car maybe seems a better option than the pad, or maybe even somewhere you only have access to or know abouts? materialize it into a another dimension that doesn't exist, than forget about it(get rid of it). I hope your friend the beset, maybe they should get out of dodge if they can.

 

[adorno]

Dont give popo a reason to go to a judge for a search warrant.

Agreed. That's the rule my friend lives by, and the search they did for alcohol/weed they seemed satisfied with because they found some and got to print tickets for those people. They can't bust a party with weed and then weeks later come back with a warrant to search for narcotics, can they?(without any new evidence or reason)

Also do you know anything about dogs and dmt? Say the landlord or school or w/e runs a dog through the place for a whatever reason. In that case they only search what containers are targeted by the dog, so would keeping supplies locked up or in a car keep the dog from sniffing it. Obviously I know weed is an easy give away for a dog, but dmt/solvent...?

Again, always play it safe and I don't mean to suggest otherwise, but my guess here would be a definitive and definite "NO," police dogs are not on the lookout for spirit molecules. Solvent very well could be, but only as it pertains to methamphetamine. Repeating myself from above, depending on where you live, local LE would have a pretty hard time making sense of a jar of solvent that had nothing to do with amphetamines. Finally, and also, "NO," having the cops bust up a party and give you tickets for weed, is not probable cause for them to come back with a warrant. But bear in mind as well, once they've come through the door, warrant or not, they can pretty much do whatever they want... But I just want to stress again, these are merely my stupid opinions, and by no means should you understand them as anything else.

 

[lyserge]

A car maybe seems a better option than the pad, or maybe even somewhere you only have access to or know abouts? materialize it into a another dimension that doesn't exist, than forget about it(get rid of it). I hope your friend the beset, maybe they should get out of dodge if they can.

A car has very little constitutional protection. It's very vulnerable compared to a house, and doesn't require a search warrant to be searched (except for possibly the trunk). Also, there are reports online of law enforcement raiding houses based on suspected speed production, only to find spice, but the individuals involved were incarcerated regardless. In your case, how did they get in the house in the first place without a warrant? It's probably a good idea for safety to perform an extraction then clean it all up. Those fumes can be poisonous and probably cause cancer.

 

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Thanks Adorno, I appreciate your opinion and feedback. From what my friend described of the event and what you've said, he shouldn't have any need to worry. The leo's did enjoy doing what they could, but dmt was definitely off their radar as some of the extraction supplies were hidden in non-suspicious plain sight and still passed by.

 

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Also, there are reports online of law enforcement raiding houses based on suspected speed production, only to find spice, but the individuals involved were incarcerated regardless. In your case, how did they get in the house in the first place without a warrant? It's probably a good idea for safety to perform an extraction then clean it all up. Those fumes can be poisonous and probably cause cancer.

They were called to the house on a noise complaint and although the music/lights were shut off I guess the leos proceeded to kock/ring the door until one of the guests foolishly opened it. They had no warrant or suspicion, but the leo was leaning into the door as it was opened, so almost immediately they had taken a step inside and 'could see alcohol/weed in plain sight' or something. So then they gathered everyone inside and did a search around for more weed/liquor.

My friend did the right thing and had kept everything very cleaned up/put away, otherwise it could have been a very different night. But still... everyone should know NOT to open the door for police, it could have all been avoided. Just to tell them you're going to sleep now and to f off, right?

 

[EzekielCain]

From what I understand according to my area a search warrant is very specific. Just having one doesn't give any LE the right to search anything they want to search.

For example: If the police are there on suspicion of cocaine distribution and you have a bong under your coffee table, guess what? They aren't THERE for a bong....they can't use that at all.

They can't search your bedroom/bathroom if the warrant only covers the living room/hallway/kitchen. I suppose if it was necessary for them to search your house in the first place they would put a "blanket clause" which says they're looking for cocaine in any room of the house. If they're there to do a visual scan of certain areas they aren't allowed to open drawers or cabinets either.

But ABSOLUTELY lawyer up. You've got the right to remain silent, USE IT. No admission of anything at all, and demand to be present when they're going through your personal effects.

And I disagree about not making them go to a judge. We all have the right to protection against improper search and seizure. It is the cops JOB to obtain a search warrant correctly if they want to search my car or house...they better get a warrant from the judge. If we just surrender these rights out of fear without making them LEGALLY obtain a warrant, what other rights are we going to have to give up? We need to make them go through the proper channels to invade our privacy. At least that's my stance on it.

 

[WEM]

I will agree with the information that others here have supplied about search warrants, they need to be specific for what they're looking for.

As for cops trying to search your house without a warrant: This video and this video as well will help with most situations

If they try to search the house without warrant during a party you're having: This is good advice for having parties

Overall any of the advice that this website provides is pretty good advice, for people living in the USA anyway, they have some stuff for other countries, but it's mainly for Americans

 

[SnozzleBerry]

For example: If the police are there on suspicion of cocaine distribution and you have a bong under your coffee table, guess what? They aren't THERE for a bong....they can't use that at all.

This is not true at all in the US. Anything that is visible falls under plain view doctrine.

The plain view doctrine allows an officer to seize--without a warrant--evidence and contraband found in plain view during a lawful observation. This doctrine is also regularly used by TSA Federal Government Officers while screening persons and property at U.S. airports.

For the plain view doctrine to apply for discoveries, the three-prong Horton test requires:
the officer to be lawfully present at the place where the evidence can be plainly viewed,
the officer to have a lawful right of access to the object, and
the incriminating character of the object to be “immediately apparent.”

In order for the officer to seize the item, the officer must have probable cause to believe the item is evidence of a crime or is contraband.

Additionally, there is plenty of room for them to find pc to enter other areas of the house in the off-chance a warrant is only for a certain part of the house (including opening locked doors/drawers etc.).

Finally, lawyer up...and even if/when the cops do come with a warrant, make sure to loudly and repeatedly state excplicitly "I do not consent to this search" so that if there are errors found with any piece of the warrant at any point, you have grounds on which to claim you did not acquiesce to the search.

 

[obliguhl]

In the future, please state the region of the world you are seeking information for. The nexus is not a US forum, even though we are using english to communicate.

 

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In the future, please state the region of the world you are seeking information for. The nexus is not a US forum, even though we are using english to communicate.

Thanks, edited title.

@WEM Yea, those are good videos, the last is pretty much exactly what happened. I'm not so much worried about them being legally invited inside again, because there will never be another party there to risk that chance. My friend feels good that he can get away with hiding dmt from the LEOs in a legal searching situation, but alas he's looking for advice on keeping 2 steps ahead of them.

He's got a wall safe that's disguised as an electric outlet, so if anything he might revert to concealing rather than locking.

 

[EzekielCain]

Snozzle:

To me this is a grey area.

I may have a bong in plain sight but upon a narco pouch test there would be no illegal residue in it because I don't smoke marijuana. Its not illegal to possess a bong.

A lawyer will know all proper loopholes to go through. The only REAL way people get into a jam is through their own consent to search.

Without a warrant, they aren't coming into my house or rifling through my things plain and simple.

If they knock on the door I'll step outside to speak with them.

 

[tony]

If they knock on the door I'll step outside to speak with them.

I've been curious about this before. In the last few months I have had police at my door at least once (other times I have ignored my door without checking who was there) and I have not answered the door to them. Are you legally obliged to answer the door to police? What can they do if they know you are ignoring the door? (I'm in the UK, but US law is likely very similar on this subject so a US answer would probably still be helpful)

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Snozzle:

To me this is a grey area.

I may have a bong in plain sight but upon a narco pouch test there would be no illegal residue in it because I don't smoke marijuana. Its not illegal to possess a bong.

It's really not a grey area...not only is a 'bong' drug paraphernalia regardless of what you, personally, use it for, it's also probable cause to search the rest of your house for drugs/paraphernalia/etc. The officer doesn't need to show that you definitely used the bong for the consumption of illicit substances, he merely needs to show that he had probable cause to believe that there were illicit substances in the house...and a bong, given its societal/cultural implications, qualifies, even if it's brand new and unused.

Also, what things are to you (or me...or Jenny from the block for that matter) are irrelevant in a discussion of the law. The only things that matter pre-trial are the laws on the books and the precedents (there are precedents for home searches based on police seeing bongs/pipes/etc...one precedent that was set by the supreme court actually allows for warrantless, forced entry, based on the presumed smell of weed smoke alone). As soon as a law enforcement agent sees your bong, he has the legal grounds to search the premises. Once this happens, the best case is that your lawyer can retroactively invalidate the search or negotiate a deal that makes it irrelevant.

As you noted, the only real defense you have to start with is to not give agents of the state entrance into your dwelling/onto your property or permission to engage with any of your stuff.

tony, in the US, you have zero obligation to open the door if they have no warrant. If they do have a warrant, whether you open the door or not is irrelevant, they will come in when they want to.

 

[jamie]

"not only is a 'bong' drug paraphernalia regardless of what you, personally, use it for, it's also probable cause to search the rest of your house for drugs/paraphernalia/etc"

Not here in canada. You can buy bongs at literally half the corner stores where I am and every cigar or smoke shop. Bongs are not illegal and not a good enough reason for a cop to get a warrant to search your home. They have to have some other proof that illegal substances are contained within or sold, grown, produced etc. It would never be worth their time to persue a person based on the fact that they have a bong though, unless they were smoking it in public etc..

The US is a different story though..I would NEVER EVER want to be caught with something like that in the united states. I went through a checkpoint at hoover dam once in nevada and I had about a gram of cannabis inside a film container inside of my folded up wetsuit..I had no idea there was a checkpoint there and when I saw all the military guys comming up to our car with guns I freaked the frak out bigtime..good thing they are more worried about terrorists there and did not ID me..they only ID'd the driver who was an american citizen. If they had seen I was canadian who knows what they would have searched.

 

[EzekielCain]

Snozzle

Check the facts here, specifically the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine.

Understanding Search-and-Seizure Law

Learn when the government can invade your privacy to hunt for evidence of a crime.

www.nolo.com

They CAN NOT enter on probable cause without a warrant and "see" something and then find something else as a result of "seeing" that something. Its very clear.

A bong is not illegal. A bong doesn't give grounds for search just by viewing it. People smoke tobacco mixed with fruit among other totally legal substances out of them.

I do agree that depending on your area and the dickheadedness of whatever cop has a lot to do with it.

They could say they "smell pot" to gain entry but if searching turns up no pot at all guess what? Lawsuit time...

 

[Icon]

So let's say they do collect the bong for weed smell or residue or whatever. From what I understand dmt doesn't show up on a piss test, but what kind of tests would they run on paraphernalia? If they take your weed bong do you think they would actually scrape the res out and test that for whatever else--and if so, do you think dmt res might raise a flag in that?

A cop once looked at me strangely when I had a jar of brown, dry vaped weed. I told them it technically was just hemp without the thc, and they asked if it would show up if they tested for it. The cop inferred that when they test for a substance that the test generally only looks for 1 thing. Perhaps dmt would be passed by even under the nose of LEO lab agents, so long as you don't give them a reason to look for any other markers.