Gondrio
Rising Star
I'm not exactly new to this forum, however, my visit has been delayed for a great length of time (2 years or so). I would like to share with you why, as I was very into the psychedelic experience, UFO lore and what not before my conversion to Christianity, and I figured this little piece might be of interest to some.
I was very interested in A.T.O. (All Things Occult), prior to becoming a Christian, and one area that I read quite a bit on were aliens, U.F.O.'s, etc. To me, the connection between UFO phenomena and the occult was fairly easy to notice and substantiate, even prior to becoming a Christian. I would note that prominent UFO researchers, including John Keel (who I believe wrote The Mothman Prophecies), Jacques Vallee, and others, have made this very same connection, that is, the "link" between UFO phenomena and occult phenomena. I essentially hold to the position that beyond the husk of mistaken UFO sightings and outright lies, there is a real core of experiences promoted and engineered by demonic beings.
Indeed, Keel himself states in UFO's: Operation Trojan Horse that "...UFO's do not seem to exist as tangible, manufactured objects. They do not conform to the accepted natural laws of our environment... The UFO manifestations seem to be, by and large, merely minor variations of the age-old demonological phenomenon." Hopefully you recognize that Keel and Vallee are fairly established names in the field and (at least to my knowledge; I could be wrong) non-Christians.
That being said, I realize that this forum is full of non-Christians. I would hope that you all hear me out, if only for curiosity's sake. It is my contention that UFO phenomena are attributable to what the Scriptures would denote as fallen angels, or, put otherwise, spirits that are in ethical rebellion against their Maker. I realize that, chances are, I just lost your respect. For curiosity's sake, hear me out. If you disagree with me, I want you to disagree with me on good, solid grounds, after all!
When most people hear the term "spirit" they immediately think of something whimsical, transparent, separated from the real world of time and space and quanta and energy, belonging to Dante and Tolkien, and not to the time-space in which we live. That would be incorrect. I think that a fair Biblical notion of a "Spirit" is simply a Person (roughly speaking, an Entity with Intellect, Self-Awareness, and Volition) that is not annexed to a physical frame, but that has the capacity to interact with the "stuff" of physical reality.
In other words, Biblically, I think it would be safe to say that a spirit is an Entity that can interact with quantum particles, that is, the stuff of physical universe. In that sense, it really isn't even "supernatural", depending on how one uses the term.
That being said, I think that an honest evaluation of UFO phenomena, even if it does not convince you of Christianity, could and should lead you to the conclusion that these "Beings" are more extra-dimensional than extra-terrestrial and, indeed, that they are more or less Entities that can interact with quantum particles and present themselves to our consciousness. That, in and of itself, does not entail Christianity.
I would hope that you hear me out, simply because John Keel, Jacques Vallee, J. Allen Hynek and others all more or less agree with me, even though none of them, to my knowledge, are Christians. By the way, those aren't random names I picked out to support my position. Those are three of the most well-known "authorities" in the field, one of whom address the United Nations on the topic of UFO's. If that weren't enough, Kenneth Arnold, who made perhaps the most famous sighting of UFO's in 1947 (and, I believed, coined the term "flying saucer" ) concluded that they were not physical airships at all, but rather some form of living energy.
I will claim that if you read Strieber's own writings on this subject, you will become aware of what I am saying. If Keel, Vallee, Hynek, Arnold, and others aren't enough, Strieber should be. When Strieber first began encountering the beings that he wrote about he himself wondered whether they were demons or not; but seeing as he was not a Christian, he ended up not seeing them in that light.
Later on in his works, Strieber describes his encounter in these words: "I felt an absolutely indescribable sense of menace. It was hell on earth to be there and yet I couldn't move, couldn't cry out, and couldn't get away. I lay as still as death, suffering inner agonies. Whatever was there seemed so monstrously ugly, so filthy and dark and sinister ... I still remember that thing crouching there, so terribly ugly, its arms and legs like limbs of a great insect, its eyes glaring at me." At least from looking online, I believe that is from Transformation, pg. 121. Also see this, from Transformation pp. 44-45: "Increasingly I felt as if I were entering a struggle that might be a struggle for my soul, my essence, or whatever part of me might have reference to the eternal... It was clear that the soul was very much at issue. People [have] experienced feeling as if their souls were being dragged from their bodies. More than one person had seen the visitors in the context of near-death experience."
Lastly, these beings demonstrate an antipathy to Jesus Christ and Christianity. And no, I am not just making that up. I remember reading in a Strieber book (I can't remember which one; I could find the reference if necessary) that the visitors told him something along the lines that they used to have more contact with men in the past when men practiced paganism, and would in the future if men returned to indigenous religions and Wicca, and forsook Christianity.
So now, by all accounts, Christian and non-Christian alike (and I think this is key...), we have Non-Embodied Entities capable of producing effects in space-time and presenting themselves to our consciousness (or, Biblically, "spirits" ) who apparently have an antipathy to Jesus Christ, and a predilection for nature religions, the occult, and drug use. On nature religions, I already mentioned the Strieber quote. Also, I remember reading a book by (or about, I forget which) by Wallace Black Elk, I believe he was Black Elk's grandson, about how he used to interact with the Star People, or Star Nations (I forget what he called them), and how they would interact with them when he desired. It is hard to see that he classified them as different than the other spirits with which he interacted.
As to drugs, I think it is commonly well-known that drugs and paganism more or less tend to go together, and often people encounter "hyper-spatial" or interdimensional beings (read, spirits... unfortunately old and tried words don't seem as cool and attention-grabbing) through psychedelics. Are you aware that in India, some Hindus use marijuana and hashish for transporting themselves into the spirit-world so as to make contact with spirit-entities (demons)? It is because of this property -- being an "inter-dimensional gateway" -- it is classified as a sorceress potion (due to its varied cultural applications for shamanistic and occult purposes, and it pharmacological properties), along with other drugs such as peyote, mushrooms, mescaline, Lysergic Acid Diethylamide 25 (LSD) and others. Further, many "drug-gurus" have spoken to the UFO phenomenon. I believe that Jerry Garcia talked about a UFO experience (I believe will on drugs; I might be mistaken), and Terrence McKenna said (regarding UFO and contact phenomena) "We are part of a symbiotic relationship with something that disguises itself as an extra-terrestrial invasion so as not to alarm us."
Here is yet another example of the "nexus" between paganism, drugs, and UFO's. Jerry Garcia was very into magic, considered psychedelics to be one of, if not the, most formative experiences of his life, frequented with occultists and shamans (I believe they called Rolling Thunder out to their ranch, once, if I'm not mistaken). Terrence McKenna, who wrote voluminously about DMT, ayahuasca, and shamanism, also realize there is a connection. Meanwhile, Wallace Black Elk is summoning them with a prayer or a call, Whitley Strieber is being told by them to practice Wicca, and countless others are experiencing paranormal, poltergeist-esque phenomena after being encountered by these "visitors". Jacques Vallee wrote a book entitled Messengers of Deception, and he and Keel (whom, it seems, you respect) both point out the stunning similarity between UFO's and the demonological manifestations of the middle ages, as well as the faerie, sidhe, and other lore of pre-Christian Europe.
I don't know if you are aware of this, but William Burroughs, who, to his own pain, was one of the darkest minds in the 20th century, and probably has more occult "street cred" than any other man of that era, believed Strieber to be sincere, and actually spent time in his New York cabin trying to contact the "visitors". And it was Burroughs who was known for his drug use, homosexuality, and occult interests (from Crowley to Babylonian and Egyptian magic). When speaking of hostile spiritual forces, Burroughs had this to say:
"When I go into my psyche, at a certain point I meet a very hostile, very strong force. It’s as definite as somebody attacking me in a bar. We usually come to a standoff, but I don’t think that I’m necessarily winning or losing […]. Listen, baby, I’ve been coping with this for so many years. I know this invasion gets in. As soon as you get close to something important, that’s when you feel this invasion, and that’s the way you know there’s something there. I’ve felt myself just marched up like a puppy to go and do something that would get me insulted or humiliated. I was not in control […]. There are all degrees of possession. It happens all the time. What you have to do is confront the possession. You can do that only when you’ve wiped out the words. You don’t argue […]. You have to let it wash through. This is difficult, difficult; but I’ll tell you one thing: You detach yourself and allow this to wash through, to go through instead of trying to oppose, which you can’t do […]. The more you pull yourself together the further apart you get. You have to learn to let the thing pass through. I am a man of the world; I understand these things. They happen to all of us. All you have to do is understand them or see them for what they are, that’s all."
Jerry Garcia spoke of the higher intelligences that surrounded him, and that the enlightenment they brought was always accompanied by "a hollow mocking laughter" which sometimes addressed him as a "stupid f***."
Meanwhile, Whitley Striber, in 2003, was apparently left on the dark side of things: "I’m a realist and what is now real is that the only thing that appears to be left of the contact experience is the dark side. So that’s what we have to face now. … In any case, the experience I had and what happens now seem to me to be very different things, almost as if somebody good has left and somebody surpassingly evil has remained here. . . . There are beings here who are hostile to one another, and some who hate us with a passion so great that it would be considered psychotic if it was displayed by a human being. There are some in a very complex and parasitical relationship with our minds, and some of these seem to me to be close enough to the human to suggest that they are hybrids of some kind. . . . I believe that this presence is what keeps us trapped here on earth, what prevents mankind from becoming a cosmic being, and what has been maneuvering us toward the earliest possible extinction. . . . something so profoundly evil that it is almost beyond imagination." There is no citation, as that is from an occult (not a Christian) website, but I believe it to be accurate based on who was writing it.
Now, by this point, you might be thinking, "Why in the world is he bringing in Jerry Garcia, William Burroughs, and others into a discussion of UFO's??" I would simply contest that, Christian or non-Christian, the more you study this stuff, the more you have to admit, if you are honest, that the lines and edges blur, and that what one initially believes to be extra-terrestrial, in the end, is more "spiritual" or inter-dimensional, and they seem to go hand-in-hand with paganism, the occult, and the drug culture.
To conclude, Vallee states in Messengers of Deception: UFO Contacts and Cults: "I believe there is a machinery of mass manipulation behind the UFO phenomenon. It aims at social and political goals by diverting attention from some human problems and by providing a potential release for tensions caused by others. The contactees are a part of that machinery. They are helping to create a new form of belief: an expectation of actual contact among large parts of the public. In turn this expectation makes millions of people hope for the imminent realization of that age-old dream: salvation from above, surrender to the greater power of some wise navigators of the cosmos (pg. 20)." He continues: "...if you take the trouble to join me in the analysis of the modern UFO myth, you will see human beings under the control of a strange force that is bending them in absurd ways, forcing them to play a role in a bizarre game of deception."
I'm not trying to debate you, so I hope the volume of this post doesn't frustrate you. I just want to give you some food for thought. After all, as I said, I'm not quoting Christians here. I'm quoting UFO authorities and occult authorities, names that you should recognize, e.g. Strieber, Vallee, Hynek, Keel, et al.
I think that Christianity remarkably accounts for both the reality of contact experiences, while, at the same time, accounting for the reality of the fact that no verifiable artifacts ever remain, that the problems with an extra-terrestrial, mechanized spacecraft view is out of accord with mainstream scientific and popular thought, and that reality simply isn't all about aliens. In other words, there is a real phenomenon, but it is a deceptive phenomenon. Of course, I don't necessarily expect you to agree.
I just find it remarkable that most of those who research the field end up concluding that there are hyperspatial or interdimensional beings who are often frightening to encounter, that manifest behavior traditionally associated with demons, poltergeists, and faeries, that associate themselves with paganism and have a direct antipathy to Jesus Christ... and that there are many people out there who believe this very thing and yet simultaneously think that Christianity is ludicrous and foolishness. I find it remarkable, since Christianity teaches that there are non-embodied Entities that are inherently malicious and deceptive, that can manipulate physical phenomena and assume forms for themselves, able to be touched or seen on radar, and who harbor an intense antipathy to Jesus Christ.
This is yet one more example of how Christianity is the key that unlocks reality, and I hope that you at least consider my position. If not, I'd be interested on what you think after you have continued to study the matter. I would just counsel you that it is the goal of these fallen entities to deceive you, and envelop your mind in an endless maze and that leads to nowhere, and that is inherently deceptive. Indeed, those who study it the most don't even believe that these visitors are interstellar or "alien" anymore. They are lying. After all, the Scripture does say that the devil is a liar, and the father of lying.
Anyhow, just my thoughts. What say ye?
I was very interested in A.T.O. (All Things Occult), prior to becoming a Christian, and one area that I read quite a bit on were aliens, U.F.O.'s, etc. To me, the connection between UFO phenomena and the occult was fairly easy to notice and substantiate, even prior to becoming a Christian. I would note that prominent UFO researchers, including John Keel (who I believe wrote The Mothman Prophecies), Jacques Vallee, and others, have made this very same connection, that is, the "link" between UFO phenomena and occult phenomena. I essentially hold to the position that beyond the husk of mistaken UFO sightings and outright lies, there is a real core of experiences promoted and engineered by demonic beings.
Indeed, Keel himself states in UFO's: Operation Trojan Horse that "...UFO's do not seem to exist as tangible, manufactured objects. They do not conform to the accepted natural laws of our environment... The UFO manifestations seem to be, by and large, merely minor variations of the age-old demonological phenomenon." Hopefully you recognize that Keel and Vallee are fairly established names in the field and (at least to my knowledge; I could be wrong) non-Christians.
That being said, I realize that this forum is full of non-Christians. I would hope that you all hear me out, if only for curiosity's sake. It is my contention that UFO phenomena are attributable to what the Scriptures would denote as fallen angels, or, put otherwise, spirits that are in ethical rebellion against their Maker. I realize that, chances are, I just lost your respect. For curiosity's sake, hear me out. If you disagree with me, I want you to disagree with me on good, solid grounds, after all!
When most people hear the term "spirit" they immediately think of something whimsical, transparent, separated from the real world of time and space and quanta and energy, belonging to Dante and Tolkien, and not to the time-space in which we live. That would be incorrect. I think that a fair Biblical notion of a "Spirit" is simply a Person (roughly speaking, an Entity with Intellect, Self-Awareness, and Volition) that is not annexed to a physical frame, but that has the capacity to interact with the "stuff" of physical reality.
In other words, Biblically, I think it would be safe to say that a spirit is an Entity that can interact with quantum particles, that is, the stuff of physical universe. In that sense, it really isn't even "supernatural", depending on how one uses the term.
That being said, I think that an honest evaluation of UFO phenomena, even if it does not convince you of Christianity, could and should lead you to the conclusion that these "Beings" are more extra-dimensional than extra-terrestrial and, indeed, that they are more or less Entities that can interact with quantum particles and present themselves to our consciousness. That, in and of itself, does not entail Christianity.
I would hope that you hear me out, simply because John Keel, Jacques Vallee, J. Allen Hynek and others all more or less agree with me, even though none of them, to my knowledge, are Christians. By the way, those aren't random names I picked out to support my position. Those are three of the most well-known "authorities" in the field, one of whom address the United Nations on the topic of UFO's. If that weren't enough, Kenneth Arnold, who made perhaps the most famous sighting of UFO's in 1947 (and, I believed, coined the term "flying saucer" ) concluded that they were not physical airships at all, but rather some form of living energy.
I will claim that if you read Strieber's own writings on this subject, you will become aware of what I am saying. If Keel, Vallee, Hynek, Arnold, and others aren't enough, Strieber should be. When Strieber first began encountering the beings that he wrote about he himself wondered whether they were demons or not; but seeing as he was not a Christian, he ended up not seeing them in that light.
Later on in his works, Strieber describes his encounter in these words: "I felt an absolutely indescribable sense of menace. It was hell on earth to be there and yet I couldn't move, couldn't cry out, and couldn't get away. I lay as still as death, suffering inner agonies. Whatever was there seemed so monstrously ugly, so filthy and dark and sinister ... I still remember that thing crouching there, so terribly ugly, its arms and legs like limbs of a great insect, its eyes glaring at me." At least from looking online, I believe that is from Transformation, pg. 121. Also see this, from Transformation pp. 44-45: "Increasingly I felt as if I were entering a struggle that might be a struggle for my soul, my essence, or whatever part of me might have reference to the eternal... It was clear that the soul was very much at issue. People [have] experienced feeling as if their souls were being dragged from their bodies. More than one person had seen the visitors in the context of near-death experience."
Lastly, these beings demonstrate an antipathy to Jesus Christ and Christianity. And no, I am not just making that up. I remember reading in a Strieber book (I can't remember which one; I could find the reference if necessary) that the visitors told him something along the lines that they used to have more contact with men in the past when men practiced paganism, and would in the future if men returned to indigenous religions and Wicca, and forsook Christianity.
So now, by all accounts, Christian and non-Christian alike (and I think this is key...), we have Non-Embodied Entities capable of producing effects in space-time and presenting themselves to our consciousness (or, Biblically, "spirits" ) who apparently have an antipathy to Jesus Christ, and a predilection for nature religions, the occult, and drug use. On nature religions, I already mentioned the Strieber quote. Also, I remember reading a book by (or about, I forget which) by Wallace Black Elk, I believe he was Black Elk's grandson, about how he used to interact with the Star People, or Star Nations (I forget what he called them), and how they would interact with them when he desired. It is hard to see that he classified them as different than the other spirits with which he interacted.
As to drugs, I think it is commonly well-known that drugs and paganism more or less tend to go together, and often people encounter "hyper-spatial" or interdimensional beings (read, spirits... unfortunately old and tried words don't seem as cool and attention-grabbing) through psychedelics. Are you aware that in India, some Hindus use marijuana and hashish for transporting themselves into the spirit-world so as to make contact with spirit-entities (demons)? It is because of this property -- being an "inter-dimensional gateway" -- it is classified as a sorceress potion (due to its varied cultural applications for shamanistic and occult purposes, and it pharmacological properties), along with other drugs such as peyote, mushrooms, mescaline, Lysergic Acid Diethylamide 25 (LSD) and others. Further, many "drug-gurus" have spoken to the UFO phenomenon. I believe that Jerry Garcia talked about a UFO experience (I believe will on drugs; I might be mistaken), and Terrence McKenna said (regarding UFO and contact phenomena) "We are part of a symbiotic relationship with something that disguises itself as an extra-terrestrial invasion so as not to alarm us."
Here is yet another example of the "nexus" between paganism, drugs, and UFO's. Jerry Garcia was very into magic, considered psychedelics to be one of, if not the, most formative experiences of his life, frequented with occultists and shamans (I believe they called Rolling Thunder out to their ranch, once, if I'm not mistaken). Terrence McKenna, who wrote voluminously about DMT, ayahuasca, and shamanism, also realize there is a connection. Meanwhile, Wallace Black Elk is summoning them with a prayer or a call, Whitley Strieber is being told by them to practice Wicca, and countless others are experiencing paranormal, poltergeist-esque phenomena after being encountered by these "visitors". Jacques Vallee wrote a book entitled Messengers of Deception, and he and Keel (whom, it seems, you respect) both point out the stunning similarity between UFO's and the demonological manifestations of the middle ages, as well as the faerie, sidhe, and other lore of pre-Christian Europe.
I don't know if you are aware of this, but William Burroughs, who, to his own pain, was one of the darkest minds in the 20th century, and probably has more occult "street cred" than any other man of that era, believed Strieber to be sincere, and actually spent time in his New York cabin trying to contact the "visitors". And it was Burroughs who was known for his drug use, homosexuality, and occult interests (from Crowley to Babylonian and Egyptian magic). When speaking of hostile spiritual forces, Burroughs had this to say:
"When I go into my psyche, at a certain point I meet a very hostile, very strong force. It’s as definite as somebody attacking me in a bar. We usually come to a standoff, but I don’t think that I’m necessarily winning or losing […]. Listen, baby, I’ve been coping with this for so many years. I know this invasion gets in. As soon as you get close to something important, that’s when you feel this invasion, and that’s the way you know there’s something there. I’ve felt myself just marched up like a puppy to go and do something that would get me insulted or humiliated. I was not in control […]. There are all degrees of possession. It happens all the time. What you have to do is confront the possession. You can do that only when you’ve wiped out the words. You don’t argue […]. You have to let it wash through. This is difficult, difficult; but I’ll tell you one thing: You detach yourself and allow this to wash through, to go through instead of trying to oppose, which you can’t do […]. The more you pull yourself together the further apart you get. You have to learn to let the thing pass through. I am a man of the world; I understand these things. They happen to all of us. All you have to do is understand them or see them for what they are, that’s all."
Jerry Garcia spoke of the higher intelligences that surrounded him, and that the enlightenment they brought was always accompanied by "a hollow mocking laughter" which sometimes addressed him as a "stupid f***."
Meanwhile, Whitley Striber, in 2003, was apparently left on the dark side of things: "I’m a realist and what is now real is that the only thing that appears to be left of the contact experience is the dark side. So that’s what we have to face now. … In any case, the experience I had and what happens now seem to me to be very different things, almost as if somebody good has left and somebody surpassingly evil has remained here. . . . There are beings here who are hostile to one another, and some who hate us with a passion so great that it would be considered psychotic if it was displayed by a human being. There are some in a very complex and parasitical relationship with our minds, and some of these seem to me to be close enough to the human to suggest that they are hybrids of some kind. . . . I believe that this presence is what keeps us trapped here on earth, what prevents mankind from becoming a cosmic being, and what has been maneuvering us toward the earliest possible extinction. . . . something so profoundly evil that it is almost beyond imagination." There is no citation, as that is from an occult (not a Christian) website, but I believe it to be accurate based on who was writing it.
Now, by this point, you might be thinking, "Why in the world is he bringing in Jerry Garcia, William Burroughs, and others into a discussion of UFO's??" I would simply contest that, Christian or non-Christian, the more you study this stuff, the more you have to admit, if you are honest, that the lines and edges blur, and that what one initially believes to be extra-terrestrial, in the end, is more "spiritual" or inter-dimensional, and they seem to go hand-in-hand with paganism, the occult, and the drug culture.
To conclude, Vallee states in Messengers of Deception: UFO Contacts and Cults: "I believe there is a machinery of mass manipulation behind the UFO phenomenon. It aims at social and political goals by diverting attention from some human problems and by providing a potential release for tensions caused by others. The contactees are a part of that machinery. They are helping to create a new form of belief: an expectation of actual contact among large parts of the public. In turn this expectation makes millions of people hope for the imminent realization of that age-old dream: salvation from above, surrender to the greater power of some wise navigators of the cosmos (pg. 20)." He continues: "...if you take the trouble to join me in the analysis of the modern UFO myth, you will see human beings under the control of a strange force that is bending them in absurd ways, forcing them to play a role in a bizarre game of deception."
I'm not trying to debate you, so I hope the volume of this post doesn't frustrate you. I just want to give you some food for thought. After all, as I said, I'm not quoting Christians here. I'm quoting UFO authorities and occult authorities, names that you should recognize, e.g. Strieber, Vallee, Hynek, Keel, et al.
I think that Christianity remarkably accounts for both the reality of contact experiences, while, at the same time, accounting for the reality of the fact that no verifiable artifacts ever remain, that the problems with an extra-terrestrial, mechanized spacecraft view is out of accord with mainstream scientific and popular thought, and that reality simply isn't all about aliens. In other words, there is a real phenomenon, but it is a deceptive phenomenon. Of course, I don't necessarily expect you to agree.
I just find it remarkable that most of those who research the field end up concluding that there are hyperspatial or interdimensional beings who are often frightening to encounter, that manifest behavior traditionally associated with demons, poltergeists, and faeries, that associate themselves with paganism and have a direct antipathy to Jesus Christ... and that there are many people out there who believe this very thing and yet simultaneously think that Christianity is ludicrous and foolishness. I find it remarkable, since Christianity teaches that there are non-embodied Entities that are inherently malicious and deceptive, that can manipulate physical phenomena and assume forms for themselves, able to be touched or seen on radar, and who harbor an intense antipathy to Jesus Christ.
This is yet one more example of how Christianity is the key that unlocks reality, and I hope that you at least consider my position. If not, I'd be interested on what you think after you have continued to study the matter. I would just counsel you that it is the goal of these fallen entities to deceive you, and envelop your mind in an endless maze and that leads to nowhere, and that is inherently deceptive. Indeed, those who study it the most don't even believe that these visitors are interstellar or "alien" anymore. They are lying. After all, the Scripture does say that the devil is a liar, and the father of lying.
Anyhow, just my thoughts. What say ye?
