Ultrasonic nebulizer: a new, important idea--must read!

[downwardsfromzero]

So, eventually I obtained a unit similar to the one depicted. Preliminary tests show that it nebulizes 92% alcohol effectively, so anything that dissolves well in that is in with a chance of efficacy.

 

[lsDxMdmaddicThc]

Here's what comes to my mind when reading this :
Standard nebulizers deliver liquid too slowly to achieve a breakthrough.
Unless you modify it to deliver short strong bursts of highly saturated DMT mixture, I would try the following :
Extended-release high dose.
Dissolve large amount of DMT in large amount of liquid.
Strap face mask on, and gradually inhale over minutes.
This would help you acclimate to the effects of DMT much more gradually, and it would probably cause a prolonged experience.
Perhaps you would even be able to control the intensity of it by controlling how much you get?
Thoughts?

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Well, it works for hemp tincture which has much more forgiving pharmacodynamics. There is a bit of a problem with the ratio of metabolism to delivery in the instance of DMT sans MAOI.

Future tests will show the solubility of DMT in ethanol which in turn will determine the approach required given the delivery rate of the device. Further back in the thread a sort of 'fog tank' idea was mooted, being intended to expedite the intake of a sufficient dose in a single inhalation. A spherical container would be best for this purpose (= optimal surface area to volume ratio), although a more cylindrical vessel would minimise air mixing. Thus the modified soda bottle trick seems a likely course of action to be needed as well.

Either that or track down the device intezam mentioned a few posts back, which seems to deliver a more powerful stream of fog.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

RE: the fog tank - It just so happens that I found a cylindrical chamber designed for use with asthma inhalers that fits the nebulizer mouthpiece perfectly (as it is, of course, the same size and shape as that of an inhaler). This makes it much easier to inhale a larger dose in a single breath.

I don't know if these things are still on the market as this one was manufactured nearly 30 years ago. It's called a 'Nebulator' Inhaliergerät (inhalation device) from Astra chemicals

I'm amazed at the luck of finding this thing by chance! No need to fiddle around with soda bottles (I don't even drink the stuff!)

 

[some one]

After all these years still only posts about "will share results soon" and no more info. Come on guys...

1. Solvent
When using FB: FB DMT dissolves in PG, which dissolves in water. Maybe a ratio of 1:1 DMT/PG in a ratio of 1:2 [DMT/PG]/Water, which is 25% DMT per total volume has a low enough viscosity be be nebulized? FB also dissolves in alcohol. downwardsfromzero, interested in your results. Hope inhaling alcohol isn't bad though.

2. DMT FB v.s. DMT Salt.
If a DMT salt is used, water can be used as the solvent. I might be wrong but this is the prefered method to be tested first if you ask me. Its not healthy to smoke DMT salts, but we're not smoking (burning) or vaping (boiling), we're inhaling tiny droplets in their liquid state at room temp. Nebulizers are actually made to deliver salts dissolved in water to the lungs as medication. Why, if so, DMT-fumerate happens to be my med of choice!

3. Nebulazation rate
Must be high. Those devices are more expensive, so don't go cheap. Product specs state they work with 20% salts solutions. If you dissolve 200 mg DMT-fumerate in 1ml water and the neb rate is 0.5 ml/min, that's 0.5 x 200 = 100mg DMT/min. You inhale 30mg DMT in 20sec. That's in two 10 seconds inhalation. Better is a device with 0.7ml/min, which does 30mg DMT in 13sec, one inhalation. At this rate there is no need to fill chambers with smoke condensing DMT on the surface.

4. Device type
Container size must be small, few ml only. So don't buy nebuls to purity room air etc. Must be medical device for inhaling. I wouldn't go ultrasonic which causes heat, not good for salts. Better is V.V.T. (virtual valve technology). This creates mist by blasting liquid through a narrow opening. Commonly used as medical devices.

Notes:
-I find the the higher the temps, the harder DMT hits. I've had some too-high vape temp DMT experiences, and they weren't nice. Hence various hard-to-handle trip reports when dabbing DMT? If so, what if lower temp does the opposite: reduce effect. This is only a theory.
- If anyone has comments about negative effects of nebulizing dmt-salts, i'm all ears.
- I found a good nebul machine candidate: The Omron A3 Nebulizer. It's VVT, has a small 5ml container and goes up to 0.7ml/min. The downside is that it's not portable. The Omron U22 is portable, but its spec states >0.25 ml/mg only.

Conclusion:
So, without further ado: an other promise of "will post results soon..."



PS. Funny, I notice that this tread was recently resurrected, around the same time I started investigating into this route (info above).
Sync ! May be meant to be..

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Time to dust off the nebulizer again, I even bought some alcohol a couple of weeks ago.

So, without further ado: an other promise of "will post results soon..."

indeed

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Soooooo.......

DMT is highly soluble in 90% ethanol. 250mg dissolves easily in 2mL of the solvent. This nebulizes effectively and effects can be built up smoothly with repeated inhalations.

RE: the fog tank - It just so happens that I found a cylindrical chamber designed for use with asthma inhalers that fits the nebulizer mouthpiece perfectly (as it is, of course, the same size and shape as that of an inhaler). This makes it much easier to inhale a larger dose in a single breath.

I don't know if these things are still on the market as this one was manufactured nearly 30 years ago. It's called a 'Nebulator' Inhaliergerät (inhalation device) from Astra chemicals

This will have to be tested carefully, based on nebulization time. More results to follow.


One thing, it's maybe not so great to inhale ethanol fog although the dose is pretty small and not particularly harsh. Tests with salts dissolved in sterile saline are still on the cards. Of course, sterility precautions are necessary with this type of solution - ethanol has the advantage here.

Other tests would include finding the minimum alcohol content necessary to dissolve DMT freebase at a worthwhile concentration.

 

[Loveall]

What about getting some help from HPBCD here?

In this link, it seems that DMT was successfully completed with HPBCD. Others in the Nexus proposed salvia complexation back in 2012 and that work is still ongoing (see InMotion's thread).

A patent just came out for cannabinoids three months ago, staking a claim on nebulizing HPBCD complexed cannabinoids:

[0023] The cannabinoids are complexed within the cyclodextrin ring structure. As a result, the complex is water-soluble due to the externally facing hydroxyl units, while retaining the biological activity of the cannabinoid retained within the ring. Beta-cyclodextrins are preferred because, without restriction to a theory, it is believed that the relative size of the cannabinoids and the cyclodextrin ring are closely matched. Furthermore, beta-cyclodextrins, and particularly HPbCD, are among the safer cyclodextrins for human ingestion or application, allowing for greater active ingredient loading per tolerable dosage, thus making HPbCD a superior complexation agent. HPBbCD is the only cyclodextrin approved for ocular formulations, and is the only water-soluble cyclodextrin recommended for rectal dosing.
...
[0044] The water-soluble inclusion complexes may be formulated for intranasal or pulmonary delivery with a fine mist nasal spray or nebulizer.

So how would it work? HPBCD complexed DMT is water soluble. After complexing (with a straightforward DMT and 75% Ethanol mix and dry), make a water solution, take into account safety and comfort (pH 7.4, proper salinity, sterilization, anything else?). Use a nebulizer, and once in the lungs HPBCD will help the drug get passed the mucose membranes (ideally).

There is info and papers on HPBCD use in the pharmaceutical field for nebulizer drug delivery.

Anyone interested in this? As the OP mentions it should work with many drugs.

There are handheld nebulizers in the market for $30. Nebulizing rate is ~ 0.5ml/min. So, assuming 1 minute of inhaling time, one gets 500mg of solution in the lungs. If the solution is 42% complexed HPBCD that is 210mg. DMT and HPBCD molecular ration is about 6, so one would get about 30mg of DMT. Sure sounds feasible.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

It's about time I rolled this project a further nudge forwards. I've been holding back on hyperspace due to health issues but with luck should be fit for a trial soon.

Thanks for the HPBCD tip, that may be worth a try. This would be reliant on income stream though. Manifestation ON!

 

[Loveall]

Sounds good downwardsfromzero.

I went ahead and ordered this nebulizer after researching several models. Will be here later this week. It has a "turbo" mode of 0.5ml/min.

First test will be using (presumably) salvinorin complexed HPBCD powder from here. Powder is 16.7% complexed salvinorin. Will dissolve 30mg of it in 5ml of sterilized saline water (0.9% NaCl). That is 1mg of salvinorin per ml (and 5mg total). 15s seconds of vapor will give 125ug, so will test in 15 sec increments.

If it works we can try complexed DMT and also complexed DMT/harmalas :twisted:

 

[Loveall]

Update on the cyclodextrin/salvia nebulizing experiment. It did not work. One issue could have been that I warmed up the water mix too much destroying any complexation. I boiled it since it is recommended to do this before nebulizing to kill any bacteria that could infect the lungs.

Will try again in the fututre by disinfecting the water first and then adding the salvinorin/HPBCD complex once cool. Will also be incrraseing the ammount of HPBCD.

In the meantime will keep on reading about the subject to learn moar. I've attached two interesting documents on the subject I've found so far. Interested in any help/input from anyone with knowledge or curiosity here.

Thanks for reading and have a great day.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Filtration is an alternative to boiling. 0.45 micron should do.

HPBCD complexing may work for sublingual dosing but we can't say that for definite with regard to inhalation.

 

[CosmicLion]

This thread is hopeless...

10 years.

No results.

:thumb_dow :shock:

 

[Eaglepath]

This thread is hopeless...

10 years.

No results.

:thumb_dow :shock:

I read all the 11 pages and was egerly waiting for a conclusion and this was it hahaha:?:

 

[some one]

Its not hopeless. Its full of data about what doesn't work and what might.

Why not contribute?

1. Buy a small tanked >0.5ml/min nebulizer (didn't exist when this tread started)

2. Make a DMT water soluble solution, either with:

Option A: Dissolve DMT fumerate in water (20% DMT, 80% water)
Option B: Dissolve DMT 1:1 in PG. Dissolve that in water (40% solution, 60% water)

Don't use ethanol. Its not healthy.
Don't use HPBCD. It supposedly doesn't work.

3. Nebulize

4. Report

5. Change ratio /vapor size setting /change device

6. Report again

 

[Loveall]

Don't count out HPBCD on my account. I think I failed because I heated the HPBCD water before nebulazing to sterilize it and that uncomplexed the salvia.

Check out the attached paper talking about HPBC being used to deliver an antibiotic in a nebulizer.

We should be able to get this to work, I think. I really need to try this again soon. Got distracted by some mushrooms, sorry

 

[Eaglepath]

Don't count out HPBCD on my account. I think I failed because I heated the HPBCD water before nebulazing to sterilize it and that uncomplexed the salvia.

Check out the attached paper talking about HPBC being used to deliver an antibiotic in a nebulizer.

We should be able to get this to work, I think. I really need to try this again soon. Got distracted by some mushrooms, sorry

Best distraction ever!

I will try to experiment some with this concept now during the summer.

 

[some one]

I take that back then.. Good luck and keep us posted! Only issue I see is that HPBCD is hard to find. And that it adds a lot of weight to the DMT. 30 mg DMT in 1 minute seems a bit long. I prefer in max 20 second (2x 10 second inhalations).

I hope someone will also try the other approaches I posted (Fumerate and PG).

 

[Loveall]

I take that back then.. Good luck and keep us posted! Only issue I see is that HPBCD is hard to find. And that it adds a lot of weight to the DMT. 30 mg DMT in 1 minute seems a bit long. I prefer in max 20 second (2x 10 second inhalations).

I hope someone will also try the other approaches I posted (Fumerate and PG).

The weight issue is a good observation. Orion worked on complexing DMT and found that the bulkiness was too much, confirming your concern.

I'm working with nebulizing salvia/HPBCD. Since only 1mg of salvinorin A is needed for a high dose, the bulk mass increase should not be an issue.

PhysicsEnvy and I had no issues finding HPBCD, but that may depend on your country.

 

[some one]

After all these years still only posts about "will share results soon" and no more info. Come on guys...

1. Solvent
When using FB: FB DMT dissolves in PG, which dissolves in water. Maybe a ratio of 1:1 DMT/PG in a ratio of 1:2 [DMT/PG]/Water, which is 25% DMT per total volume has a low enough viscosity be be nebulized? FB also dissolves in alcohol. downwardsfromzero, interested in your results. Hope inhaling alcohol isn't bad though.

2. DMT FB v.s. DMT Salt.
If a DMT salt is used, water can be used as the solvent. I might be wrong but this is the prefered method to be tested first if you ask me. Its not healthy to smoke DMT salts, but we're not smoking (burning) or vaping (boiling), we're inhaling tiny droplets in their liquid state at room temp. Nebulizers are actually made to deliver salts dissolved in water to the lungs as medication. Why, if so, DMT-fumerate happens to be my med of choice!

3. Nebulazation rate
Must be high. Those devices are more expensive, so don't go cheap. Product specs state they work with 20% salts solutions. If you dissolve 200 mg DMT-fumerate in 1ml water and the neb rate is 0.5 ml/min, that's 0.5 x 200 = 100mg DMT/min. You inhale 30mg DMT in 20sec. That's in two 10 seconds inhalation. Better is a device with 0.7ml/min, which does 30mg DMT in 13sec, one inhalation. At this rate there is no need to fill chambers with smoke condensing DMT on the surface.

4. Device type
Container size must be small, few ml only. So don't buy nebuls to purity room air etc. Must be medical device for inhaling. I wouldn't go ultrasonic which causes heat, not good for salts. Better is V.V.T. (virtual valve technology). This creates mist by blasting liquid through a narrow opening. Commonly used as medical devices.

Notes:
-I find the the higher the temps, the harder DMT hits. I've had some too-high vape temp DMT experiences, and they weren't nice. Hence various hard-to-handle trip reports when dabbing DMT? If so, what if lower temp does the opposite: reduce effect. This is only a theory.
- If anyone has comments about negative effects of nebulizing dmt-salts, i'm all ears.
- I found a good nebul machine candidate: The Omron A3 Nebulizer. It's VVT, has a small 5ml container and goes up to 0.7ml/min. The downside is that it's not portable. The Omron U22 is portable, but its spec states >0.25 ml/mg only.

Conclusion:
So, without further ado: an other promise of "will post results soon..."



PS. Funny, I notice that this tread was recently resurrected, around the same time I started investigating into this route (info above).
Sync ! May be meant to be..

Still believe someone who isn't some one should try this method if someone already owns a device. I don't, so it has to be someone who isn't me.