Using dmt or ayahuasca as a dietary suppliment

[MelCat]

Protein is very acid forming in the body and overconsumption has been thought by many to be part of the cause of many diseases. If you look at vegan bodybuilders, even ones that consume no nuts and are fruitarian, most of them are more muscular than meat eaters..why? Becasue you dont need protein..yes thats right, contrary to popular belief the body does not require any protein.

Amino acids are what build muscles, not protein. Protein is the middle man and the body has to expend alot of energy in order to convert protein into the amino acids it uses to build muscle. Fruits and vegetables are loaded with muscle building amino acids that lend themselves to muscle development more than protein does..you just have to eat them raw. If you cook them, you also destory those same amino acids. This is something that alot of people dont know and the whole protein myth just continues.

Asinine. Fruitarian bodybuilders? Wherever have you seen these impossible creatures?

Protein is absolutely essential to the healthy functioning of the human body. This is not a disputed fact in any credible area of nutritional science.

Protein is simply a collective term for any given combination of amino acids. It can can be readily broken down into constituent free aminos by anyone with a functioning stomach and pancreas, and since every cell in the body is in a continuous state of protein turnover, a full range of free aminos (difficult to accumulate via vegetable sources, outright impossible via fruit) is required at all times. Exactly how much a person needs depends on a great many factors, but for anyone weighing more than a small child and with activity levels higher than a slug, 0.5g per lb of lean body mass would be considered minimal. For purposes of muscle building, 1g/lb lean mass at least. And all protein sources should be as varied as possible (i.e. not derived strictly from one narrow food category) in order to accumulate the full range of aminos required by the body's tissues.

Excess protein (somewhere in the absurd ballpark of more than 2g/lb of lean body mass) consumption is easily dealt with by a pair of healthy kidneys and cycled into urea. Eating insufficient calories, as is quite likely to result from a strictly plant-based diet, sequesters free aminos away from cell renewal and into energy metabolism, meaning the body is much less able to repair itself. Chronic catabolism is not a desirable state for any organism to be in, and it should not be recommended.

I gotta disagree with ya as well Fractal. The body needs protein in order to function properly. However, I don't believe that you really need to eat meat in order to get all of your required protein.

Here are a couple of sites that list high protein plants to supplement a vegan/raw diet.

50 Foods High in Protein
Protein in the Vegan Diet
High Protein Vegetables - Relates to a veggie based mass building diet.
Spirulina - 68% Water Soluble Protein - Containing all 8 essential amino acids and a total of 18 in all, it is established among many as a "supreme" protein. In nutritional studies it comes in as a higher digestible protein source over beef, 12 times higher, with a much healthier balance of minerals and other nutrients.

There are definitely ways to achieve all of your protein needs without resorting to eating animals.

 

[christian]

You may be correct, Fractal. However, i know that i lose strength if i don't eat lean protein, and i'm accustomed to it now.

--I also think that the Chinese worked out that if you work hard, that you need to eat some meat in your diet. Some Animals have massive muscles and strength, and just live off grasses, however they have different dietary needs than we do, and perhaps different digestive systems than we do, etc.

 

[jamie]

^ Our digestive systems are not suited for meat. Animals that are suited for meat have much shorter digestive tracts..ours are much longer and more suited for vegetable matter..meat basically rots in such a long digestive tract.. Do you have a link to the claim that china found people who work harder need to eat meat?

 

[jamie]

Protein is very acid forming in the body and overconsumption has been thought by many to be part of the cause of many diseases. If you look at vegan bodybuilders, even ones that consume no nuts and are fruitarian, most of them are more muscular than meat eaters..why? Becasue you dont need protein..yes thats right, contrary to popular belief the body does not require any protein.

Amino acids are what build muscles, not protein. Protein is the middle man and the body has to expend alot of energy in order to convert protein into the amino acids it uses to build muscle. Fruits and vegetables are loaded with muscle building amino acids that lend themselves to muscle development more than protein does..you just have to eat them raw. If you cook them, you also destory those same amino acids. This is something that alot of people dont know and the whole protein myth just continues.

Asinine. Fruitarian bodybuilders? Wherever have you seen these impossible creatures?

Protein is absolutely essential to the healthy functioning of the human body. This is not a disputed fact in any credible area of nutritional science.

Protein is simply a collective term for any given combination of amino acids. It can can be readily broken down into constituent free aminos by anyone with a functioning stomach and pancreas, and since every cell in the body is in a continuous state of protein turnover, a full range of free aminos (difficult to accumulate via vegetable sources, outright impossible via fruit) is required at all times. Exactly how much a person needs depends on a great many factors, but for anyone weighing more than a small child and with activity levels higher than a slug, 0.5g per lb of lean body mass would be considered minimal. For purposes of muscle building, 1g/lb lean mass at least. And all protein sources should be as varied as possible (i.e. not derived strictly from one narrow food category) in order to accumulate the full range of aminos required by the body's tissues.

Excess protein (somewhere in the absurd ballpark of more than 2g/lb of lean body mass) consumption is easily dealt with by a pair of healthy kidneys and cycled into urea. Eating insufficient calories, as is quite likely to result from a strictly plant-based diet, sequesters free aminos away from cell renewal and into energy metabolism, meaning the body is much less able to repair itself. Chronic catabolism is not a desirable state for any organism to be in, and it should not be recommended.

Okay well if you want to use protein as the strict definition meaning all amino acids then fine you need it, you need amino acids. What people usually call "protein" you dont need though, and you dont need any animal products and there is NO evidence that humans do. There is enough data out there by now to support this. Go do the reasearch if you really want to. There are lots of fruitarian body builders..what is so asinine about that? A simple google search will show up many of them...not really that hard to figure out.

 

[jamie]

here is some proof that you can take essential amino acids in place of "protein" and the body will still build muscle at at least the same rate..

An oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement enhances muscle protein anabolism after resistance exercise - PubMed

This study was designed to determine the response of muscle protein to the bolus ingestion of a drink containing essential amino acids and carbohydrate after resistance exercise. Six subjects (3 men, 3 women) randomly consumed a treatment drink (6 g essential amino acids, 35 g sucrose) or a...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Essential amino acids and muscle protein recovery from resistance exercise - PubMed

This study tests the hypothesis that a dose of 6 g of orally administered essential amino acids (EAAs) stimulates net muscle protein balance in healthy volunteers when consumed 1 and 2 h after resistance exercise. Subjects received a primed constant infusion of L-[(2)H(5)]phenylalanine and...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Pokey]

Ummmm.... We evolved for 2.5 or so million years hunting and gathering. It was about 10,000 years ago that humans developed agriculture and started eating grains and legumes. It is also when humans lost both height and muscle mass, and developed a host of new diseases. I realize this has zero to do with dmt as a dietary supplement, but I noticed the bit about our digestive tract "not being suited for meat". That is silly. It is quite suited for meat. Also, it is carbohydrates that are not necessary to eat, not protein. We can make glucose (carbs get converted to glucose anyway) with protein and fat. Humans, from an evolutionary standpoint, should eat meat, veggies, insects, fruit, and nuts. Anything else is going against 50,000 generations of adaptation.


Paleolithic Pokey

 

[proto-pax]

Frac, amino acids are the components of proteins. Also the studies you posted had supplemental aminos acids. That could be used in conjunction with a fruititarian diet, but from how I understood your original post I didn't think that included supplemental amino acids.

I agree with you that it's possible to be a fruititarian bodybuilder if you take supplemental amino acids. I don't understand why acid forming is a problem either... After all your body breaks down proteins into amino acids when it ingests a protein. That happens all the time in your cells though, your body breaks down proteins regularly through a bunch of pathways (ubiquitin targeting for example). I'm not saying that your diet doesn't work for you though, obviously everyone is different. If you are healthy that is all that matters, just make sure to remember that everyone is different, and what works for you may not work me me or joe or sally etc. I'll happily agree that it is rare to see an unhealthy vegan if they do the diet right though.

 

[jamie]

If you are on a raw diet filled with fruits and veggies you wont need to supplement amino acids..fruits and veggies are loaded with bioavailable amino acids when raw. There is no way a fruitarian/raw foodest is not going to get enough amino acids unless they are not eating a proper ammount of food.

The body does not break ALL protein down into amino acids if I am not mistake from my reading(I might be it was a while back)..but I think that excess protein in converted into fats at some point..can anyone verify that?

Your association between the acidity of meat ingestion and amino acids is a sort of misundestanding. Animal flesh contains uric acid, at about 5% volume and is toxic. The body does not metabolize it..that is hardly relevant to the bodies requirement for amino acids.

 

[jamie]

Ummmm.... We evolved for 2.5 or so million years hunting and gathering. It was about 10,000 years ago that humans developed agriculture and started eating grains and legumes. It is also when humans lost both height and muscle mass, and developed a host of new diseases. I realize this has zero to do with dmt as a dietary supplement, but I noticed the bit about our digestive tract "not being suited for meat". That is silly. It is quite suited for meat. Also, it is carbohydrates that are not necessary to eat, not protein. We can make glucose (carbs get converted to glucose anyway) with protein and fat. Humans, from an evolutionary standpoint, should eat meat, veggies, insects, fruit, and nuts. Anything else is going against 50,000 generations of adaptation.


Paleolithic Pokey

Sorry, I wrote a big post but somehow deleted it..

http://leftinthedark.org.uk/

That book basically covers everything about why the paleo diet and the theory that we evolved on the savannah makes very little sense. That theory is riddled with holes that dont add up.

http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1851334

Human as Omnivore not Frugivore hoax

A NEW LOOK AT VEGETARIANISM

Scientific explanations to myth and reality of vegetarianism, and why sould one consider vegetarianism for health and disease control.

dpcpress.com

I will add more links later when I have the time.

 

[proto-pax]

Protein is metabolized into fat if you eat to much. That happens with everything though, carbohydrates will be stored as fat if you don't utilize it (excess carbs can be turned into aceytl CoA and that serves as the starting point for fatty acid synthesis).

Also I may be mistaken, but you eat cashews. I'm not sure if I have the definition of frutarian correct, but when I think of frutarian I think of someone who eats only apples oranges grapes etc.

That diet to me doesn't seem sustainable at all and that's all that I am trying to say. Obviously the one you have works for you, and maybe frutarian does include those things. If so then yes I am wrong, cause I am pretty sure I've heard of bodybuilders who are hardcore as hell about their diets and eat like you.

If I was mistaken about your diet I apologize cause that can get annoying. I get so many silly ideas about what a vegetarian is. I've actually had people say "You eat chicken and fish right?".

 

[jamie]

yeah cashew are concidered a fruit technically..I have stopped eating nuts and seeds though personally other than when they occur in fruits like berries etc..I think nuts and seeds are fine, but for some reason they bother me so I tried cutting them out of my diet and felt better for it. I basically eat tons of fresh fruit and vegetables lately without the seeds or nuts..and thats it. I still get some protein though..you will always get some protein eating greens. I just dont worry about it becasue I get loads of amino acids.

"fruitarians" usually eat largely fruits, inclusing nuts and seeds, and also some vegetables. I dont worry about the lables..alot of it is a fad..some people are even against vegetables. I eat tons of vegetables as I think that the greens are super alkalizing and great for tissue regeration.

I also boil water for tea and whatever..and will eat lightly boiled bok choi with lemon juice or whatever the odd time when minxx makes it..I dont really follow any specific diet anymore..I just know that for my body raw, fresh fruits and vegetables seem to make me feel the best I can imagine feeling. The trick is that you have to eat ALOT. Some people eat like 15 bananas for breakfast or more..you need to eat alot of fruit and vegetables to get your calories, becasue they digest so quickly..

 

[Laban Shrewsbury III]

The body does not break ALL protein down into amino acids if I am not mistake from my reading(I might be it was a while back)..but I think that excess protein in converted into fats at some point..can anyone verify that?

Not fat. It's called gluconeogenesis - excess (and you have to eat A LOT of excess) protein will be converted into glucose in the liver, and is then dealt with as any other carb. It's something to be wary of if you're doing low carb ketogenic dieting as it will temporarily bump the liver out of ketone metabolism and compromise fat loss. But as a physiological process it poses absolutely no health risk.

Your association between the acidity of meat ingestion and amino acids is a sort of misundestanding. Animal flesh contains uric acid, at about 5% volume and is toxic. The body does not metabolize it..that is hardly relevant to the bodies requirement for amino acids.

Uric acid is easily shunted to the kidneys, which produce it as a continuous process of keeping the body alive. Fluctuations in body pH are effortlessly regulated moment-to-moment by a variety of mechanisms, including regulation of CO2 in your exhalations. The acidity/alkalinity of what you eat is orders of magnitude lower than what your kidneys are designed to deal with, and thus any diet that considers food pH a factor in health is quackery on the face of it. If you're particularly concerned about uric acid buildup (which results in lovely things like gout) you'd be better served looking to moderate your sugar intake, particularly fructose - which fruit is full of.

I don't doubt what you're claiming about fruitarianism and raw foodism is basically true -the human body is amazingly adaptable, after all- but I do doubt that either model is recommendable as a long-term eating plan with sensible ratios of macro- and micronutrients, particularly for anyone with athletic goals. But, to each their own.