Using The Word 'Ayahuasca'

[SnozzleBerry]

My reply was given as I understood RS as approaching this person to give the "shamanic perspective."

I'm quite aware that opinions are bound to differ among shamans. I suggested it because I thought one opinion might be better than zero. And later, perhaps there will be more to add to the bucket!

Sounds good to me :thumb_up:

 

[RhythmSpring]

How do you guys and gals feel about this brief question I drafted up? Anything you would add?

Asumiendo están prudente, como te sientes sobre ellos comprando, haciendo y tomando la medicina, sin shaman? Es irrespetuoso? Irresponsable? Es Ayahuasca la propriedad de los indígenos como el Shipibo?
~~~
Assuming they are being prudent, how do you feel about them buying, making and taking the medicine (Ayahuasca), without a shaman? Is it disrespectful? Irresponsible? Is Ayahuasca the property of indigenous peoples like the Shipibo?

[At this point, "them" just refers to "my friends on the internet." I didn't think I could get any more specific than that.]

-RS

 

[Adjhart]

How do you guys and gals feel about this brief question I drafted up? Anything you would add?

Asumiendo están prudente, como te sientes sobre ellos comprando, haciendo y tomando la medicina, sin shaman? Es irrespetuoso? Irresponsable? Es Ayahuasca la propriedad de los indígenos como el Shipibo?
~~~
Assuming they are being prudent, how do you feel about them buying, making and taking the medicine (Ayahuasca), without a shaman? Is it disrespectful? Irresponsible? Is Ayahuasca the property of indigenous peoples like the Shipibo?

[At this point, "them" just refers to "my friends on the internet." I didn't think I could get any more specific than that.]

-RS

In response to the original post, it really shouldn't matter. Because like anything else - the real inward layers are reserved for the initiated. Anyone who seeks out Ayahuasca sincerely with due diligence will discover the different variations.

But in response to this recent question...

You said they were being prudent, so no, I don 't think it's disrespectful, and irresponsible is kind of the opposite of prudent so no...and of course ayahuasca is not the property of any group other than earth and its inhabitants. Even the Shipibo would tell you that. Visionary plants are all over the globe.

 

[RhythmSpring]

Why are you speaking for someone else? I know how most of you feel about this here. The whole point of this is to get an opinion from someone close to the source, in a sense. Because we care about what they think. Not that we should take what they say as gospel, but they deserve to be part of the conversation, no?

 

[Nathanial.Dread]

Why are you speaking for someone else? I know how most of you feel about this here. The whole point of this is to get an opinion from someone close to the source, in a sense. Because we care about what they think. Not that we should take what they say as gospel, but they deserve to be part of the conversation, no?

:thumb_up:

That's one of the things I had hoped to say in the OP. Not that we are 'bad' or 'wrong' for using Aya, or calling it Aya, but rather, we should have a discussion about our relationship to Ayahuasca, given that we have the privileges of westerners in largely developed countries and, in some ways, benefit from the same systems that continue the oppressions of those who originally developed Ayahuasca.

Blessings
~ND

 

[The Traveler]

Why are you speaking for someone else? I know how most of you feel about this here. The whole point of this is to get an opinion from someone close to the source, in a sense. Because we care about what they think. Not that we should take what they say as gospel, but they deserve to be part of the conversation, no?

I think the issue that snozz is trying to explain here is that there is not 'one' source. There are seemingly endless sources that each have their own specific view on this all.

It is like getting your source from a politician, which one do you listen to?


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[RhythmSpring]

Like I said, I, and, I assume, everyone here is aware that this person is not representative of all shamans in Peru.

So, are you saying you don't want to hear what this person has to say? Or...?

When you say "seemingly endless sources," I think you may be referring to us mostly white, modern, internet users. But for there to enter a voice from someone who doesn't fall under that category (and someone who has grown up in an extended family that has drunk Ayahuasca for generations)... don't you think that might be something valuable?

If not, I'd be very surprised.

 

[The Traveler]

Like I said, I, and, I assume, everyone here is aware that this person is not representative of all shamans in Peru.

So, are you saying you don't want to hear what this person has to say? Or...?

When you say "seemingly endless sources," I think you may be referring to us mostly white, modern, internet users. But for there to enter a voice from someone who doesn't fall under that category (and someone who has grown up in an extended family that has drunk Ayahuasca for generations)... don't you think that might be something valuable?

If not, I'd be very surprised.

Don't get me wrong, I love to hear the story of this one person but I would also keep in mind that his/her voice is just one of many.

If you only look at how many different recipes for ayahuasca there are with so many diverse styles it leads as an example to explain the variety of voices you will get when asking such a question.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[RhythmSpring]

but I would also keep in mind that his/her voice is just one of many.

I don't mean to be rude, but I must have said that I (and probably everyone else here) is aware of that... like 3 or 4 times. :!:

If you only look at how many different recipes for ayahuasca there are with so many diverse styles it leads as an example to explain the variety of voices you will get when asking such a question.

Do you think it would be a good idea to tell this person/shaman that people are making "ayahuascas" from plants not found in the Amazon? I think I might tell him anyway--I bet he would find it interesting. And it might inform his answer a little bit.

 

[The Traveler]

Do you think it would be a good idea to tell this person/shaman that people are making "ayahuascas" from plants not found in the Amazon? I think I might tell him anyway--I bet he would find it interesting. And it might inform his answer a little bit.

I think that might trigger the interest of some yes.

Please let us know what answer you get.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[pitubo]

Do you think it would be a good idea to tell this person/shaman that people are making "ayahuascas" from plants not found in the Amazon? I think I might tell him anyway--I bet he would find it interesting. And it might inform his answer a little bit.

If you can, bring a decent amount of syrian rue and acacia or mimosa, so the shaman can try some.

 

[RhythmSpring]

I'm only in touch with him on the internet. I spent around 2 months with him in Peru, though. Last year.

And shipping things to Peru is not only a hassle, but a very expensive hassle. Like, Peru has one of the worst postal services in the world.

 

[RhythmSpring]

Me:
Asumiendo están prudente, como te sientes sobre ellos comprando, haciendo y tomando la medicina, sin shaman? Es irrespetuoso? Irresponsable? Es Ayahuasca la propriedad de los indígenos como el Shipibo? Que dices tu?

Him:
no es irrespetuoso con uno toma con respeto
[Rough translation: It's not disrespectful for one who drinks with respect.]

Me:
si
algo mas?

Him:
si la presencia de shaman es muy importante siempre cuando la persona casi no tiene experiencia
[Rough translation: Yes, the presence of a shaman is always very important when the person barely has any experience.]

Me:
si
gracias

~~~

I don't know how revealing this is, really, but I don't really feel like prying any further. He's a man of few words and I respect that. But it's clear that he's not overly protective of Ayahuasca, and I personally think that he would be impressed by a lot of us here and how we go about taking the medicine.

 

[tregar]

The Origins of Ayahuasca and the Name Ayahuasca, excellent article by Gale Highpine w/references:
hxxp://www.ayahuasca.com/ayahuasca-overviews/unraveling-the-mystery-of-the-origin-of-ayahuasca/

Unraveling the Mystery of the Origin of Ayahuasca

For decades, researchers have puzzled over the mystery of the origin of Ayahuasca, especially the question of how the synergy was discovered between the the two components of the brew: the vine (Ba…

www.ayahuasca.com

Harmala alkaloids in analyzed brews, comprehensive study (see pages 2 & 3):
hxxp://catbull.com/alamut/Bibliothek/various%20alkaloid%20profiles%20in%20aya%20decoction.pdf

http://catbull.com/alamut/Bibliothek/various%20alkaloid%20profiles%20in%20aya%20decoction.pdf

The Therapeutic use of Ayahuasca:
hxxps://books.google.com/books?id=h0_ABAAAQBAJ&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=ayahuasca+withdrawal+maoi&source=bl&ots=UNtHYpZ8CZ&sig=h2-6WU6IDR2pd5qzgyGasyuEYPs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NcgJVYe-E8TYggSJv4SQBA&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=ayahuasca%20withdrawal%20maoi&f=false

The Therapeutic Use of Ayahuasca

This book presents a series of perspectives on the therapeutic potential of the ritual and clinical use of the Amazonian hallucinogenic brew ayahuasca in the treatment and management of various diseases and ailments, especially its role in psychological well-being and substance dependence...

books.google.com

The Internationalization of Ayahuasca:
hxxps://books.google.com/books?id=49i8-CzmY_oC&printsec=frontcover&dq=beatriz+the+internationalization+of+ayahuasca&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EJMqVaWlA4m_ggSploKYAQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=beatriz%20the%20internationalization%20of%20ayahuasca&f=false

The Internationalization of Ayahuasca

This is a fascinating compilation of medical, psychological and sociological papers on the spread of ayahuasca use...in Brazil and in several European countries (Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Netherlands), as well as the USA....highly recommended for serious students of this subject. - Ralph...

books.google.com

"Antipodes of the Mind", 500 page book by Benny Shannon detailing his 165 Ayahuasca sessions (to date) & interviews with hundreds of others; took him 7 years to write, A+++

 

[datdmt]

Are we not all human? do we not all share this one planet? the idea that a culture belongs to its indigenous creators as some kind of intellectual property, is to me, exclusionary and alienating. Culture appropriation is not inherently negative, in fact it should be encouraged.

melt all the wax and boil it in the earth pot.

 

[Nathanial.Dread]

Are we not all human? do we not all share this one planet? the idea that a culture belongs to its indigenous creators as some kind of intellectual property, is to me, exclusionary and alienating. Culture appropriation is not inherently negative, in fact it should be encouraged.

melt all the wax and boil it in the earth pot.

That's called color blind racism, and it's...problematic. Yes we're all human, yes this is one planet, but to say things like "I only see the human," ignores the reality that many people are, for whatever reason, oppressed, exploited, or otherwise marginalized.

Culture exchange, when it occurs between two cultures that are on equal footing is an awesome thing that everyone should support. It is very different when you have one culture that is poorer, exploited, and marginalized and another that is powerful, wealthy, and dominant, and the second culture is appropriating the first one.

There are *tons* of resources online (and not all of them are Tumblr blogs) written by Indigenous authors, and authors of color about cultural appropriation.
I encourage you to seek them out. As a white, middle class dude, I totally understand your perspective, but it's worth thinking about the perspectives of others.

Blessings
~ND

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Culture appropriation is not inherently negative, in fact it should be encouraged.

Here's something relevant that Praxis shared in a thread on racism:

Cultural appropriation is the adoption or theft of icons, rituals, aesthetic standards, and behavior from one culture or subculture by another. It generally is applied when the subject culture is a minority culture or somehow subordinate in social, political, economic, or military status to the appropriating culture. This “appropriation” often occurs without any real understanding of why the original culture took part in these activities or the meanings behind these activities, often converting culturally significant artifacts, practices, and beliefs into “meaningless” pop-culture or giving them a significance that is completely different/less nuanced than they would originally have had.

...

Cultural appropriation is a by-product of imperialism, capitalism, oppression, and assimilation. Imperialism is the creation and maintenance of an unequal cultural, economic, and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination. Imperialism functions by subordinating groups of people and territories and extracting everything of value from the colonized people and territories. In the case of cultural appropriation, culture is treated as a “natural resource” to extract from People of Color.

Cultural appropriation is profitable. Objects and traditions (but not the people) of marginalized cultures are seen by the dominant culture as exotic, edgy, and desirable, which translates to profits. Capitalism works best when people are not individual people with celebrated differences, but identical workers, cogs in the machine. Once diverse cultural identities are stripped away, the only culture left to identify with is capitalist culture.

This is one aspect of assimilation, in which marginalized communities lose their cultural markers and are folded into the dominant culture. The process of assimilation is sped up when culture markers are appropriated by the dominant culture. Once the dominant culture has access to the cultural markers of a marginalized culture, they are no longer markers of the marginalized culture, and the marginalized culture is gobbled up by the dominant culture.

Source: Cultural Appreciation or Cultural Appropriation?

Cultural appropriation by its very nature entails taking an aspect of a "subordinate culture" that dominant culture finds attractive, while discarding the rest. The act of appropriation consequently invisibilizes the marginalized culture. It is important to note that appropriation has occurred throughout history in many forms. Several ancient tribal European customs were appropriated by dominant society during the period in which (European) indigenous tribal cultures were systematically eradicated, in concordance with the establishment of Europe's many nation-states. While aspects of these cultures which were desirable and non-threatening to those in power were appropriated, this was a period in which literal witch-hunts were common and those convicted of practicing "witch-craft" or "the old ways" were faced with being publicly burned alive, drowned, stoned, and tortured.

Cultural diffusion on the other hand:

The spread of ethnic cuisine is a tasty example of the phenomenon known as cultural diffusion. Cultural diffusion is the spread of a cultural aspect from one group to another. Food is one example, but styles, technologies, ideas and languages can also be transferred between cultures. The process has a well documented history going back to the spread of agriculture if not earlier. It is generally considered an important part of how societies interact and evolve.

Contrasted with that is cultural appropriation. Cultural appropriation is when members of one group take a specific aspect of another group’s culture and use it in such a way as to radically alter the meaning of that aspect

Source: Cultural Diffusion vs. Cultural Appropriation: What’s the Difference and Why Should We Care?