Value of Shaman guide with Aya?

[friken]

I would like to discuss with the group the value shamans in relation to DMT -- most specifically oral DMT/aya/mimosa tea etc.

For context, I would like to discuss it specific to my experience so far with mimosa tea. I have had 5 oral mimosa tea experience now, all self experimentation. Each trip has been very powerful and range from a very large(first) dose to more modest doses:

My first few trips are in this thread:

A Journey of Fear - First steps in Hyperspace - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

My 5th and last trip was reported here:

Bass Akwards - First steps in Hyperspace - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

I had posted my "Journey of Fear" report on experienceproject a while back and just recently received the only reply:

You took Ayahuasca alone without a shaman or spiritual healer to guide the ceremony.You probably did not know the proper way of preparing Ayahuasca, a process that involves prayer and putting positive energy into the brew for as long as an entire day or beyond. What you did was dangerous. Some people die taking Ayahuasca. Life is not just chemicals and physics. There is a lot more to it than that. Ayahuasca invoques poewrful energies that do not know right and wrong or good and bad.
Go through my stories and find Ayahuasca: The cure. See the difference between an experience with a healer and without.
Good luck. Don't give up on taking Ayahuasca but you must find the right way of taking it.

To give the above quote more context, I read the author's aya experience post. It was a fantastic write-up about his own aya experience and his personal fight against depression:

http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Did-Ayahuasca/3034333

To kickoff the discussion, I'll throw in my 2 cents:

I do believe that shamans/healers with prior knowledge of DMT/aya/etc would definitely be helpful to aid one in exploring DMT/aya/themself. They can also aid in keeping newbie fools like me from starting with a 10g Mimosa boil as their first ever drug beyond beer and a puff of pot.

I am also a bit skeptical as well. It would be way too easy to setup an aya retreat, label yourself shaman-uber-guru-extraordinaire, invite newcomers to experience dmt and watch them leave thinking the power of the experience was as much in the shaman as the DMT.

I am actually very interested in the aya retreats -- partly because it would be great to take time out of life and a change of setting to focus on nothing but aya and partly because I would love to see firsthand what guidance and knowledge aya/DMT shamans have to offer. Google being my friend, I started looking. There are multi-dozens of retreats in Peru alone, some in brazil, costa rica and more. Every one explains how their retreat is different, special, and how their shamans are THE real deal....maybe they all are great, but I can't help smell tourist trap to some extent. I can't seem to find any that jump out as 'the real deal'. Maybe they all are great.

I'd love feedback from both those with self experimentation with dmt and those who have been to shamans, retreats, healers, etc to experience dmt. Maybe even any who calls them-self 'shaman'? I'm not even 100% sure I understand what the label means. My best stab at it is generic "someone who believes to be knowledgeable of spiritual matters, knows some plants/drugs to aid in such and helps guide others in same". Is this close? I guess wiki sorta agrees: Shamanism - Wikipedia

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

You took Ayahuasca alone without a shaman or spiritual healer to guide the ceremony.You probably did not know the proper way of preparing Ayahuasca, a process that involves prayer and putting positive energy into the brew for as long as an entire day or beyond. What you did was dangerous. Some people die taking Ayahuasca. Life is not just chemicals and physics. There is a lot more to it than that. Ayahuasca invoques poewrful energies that do not know right and wrong or good and bad.
Go through my stories and find Ayahuasca: The cure. See the difference between an experience with a healer and without.
Good luck. Don't give up on taking Ayahuasca but you must find the right way of taking it.

be afraid, be very afraid...
It is just typical fear mongering.

Shamans, (I really hate that word) developed ayahuasca technology over time and different tribes had different approaches etc. By no means did they just suddenly arrive at a method, stick with it and that was that end of story.

This idea, implied that you could die from a lack of "positive" energy put into the brew is laughable, ridiculous and even hints that the person who wrote it might not be very familiar with shamanism or positive energy. Allow me to point out that Aya was used for war as well as for "healing" and you could use the same brew, the same batch of brew even for different intentions.

That being said, ayahuasca is a powerful tool, it is safer than the fear mongering reply above would have you believe, but it is a powerful tool. Imagine it is an aircraft or a vehicle of some sort, one that was fairly safe but still one that isn't just something one launches into unprepared and still gets the most out of it. Working with a good tradition like shamanism can be like working with a pilot or someone familiar with the operation of the vehicle and it a good way to get a lot out of the experience.

More people however, seem to die under the care of a so called shaman than do when experimenting on their own. This might simply be that some shamanic traditions have a very very very macho vibe in them and push certain things further than they should, putting the taker at greater risk potentially.

Sometimes whole villages took aya together, even children, the shaman didn't have time to work with every single person, babysitting them and keeping them alive, and yes they were all fine.

Also long term studies of aya use have not found it to be incredibly dangerous, quite the opposite, if it was potentially deadly and a risk for those who take it Brazil would have criminalized it long ago, they examined it in depth considering just that and found it was not particularly dangerous.

Of course you can benefit from using it with a shaman, or even with a trained therapist who knows how to do guided psychedelic sessions, which I think would be more ideal.

I will also point out that shamanism relating to aya isn't an enlightened tradition where the shamans are saints and everyone benefits from them. It isn't always good or wonderful, and this isn't because aya isn't, but because shamans are humans and thus come with all the same complications that other humans do. They aren't really going to be any better in terms of behavior, wisdom, sacred knowledge or insights than the average person, that is just a myth that is largely based in them being exotic to our culture, they are "other" and we are ignorant largely about them and so place them on a pedestal where we glorify them as something they are not.

So yes you can benefit from working with a shaman or a tradition, but it could put you at greater risk and may ultimately mislead and delude you, depending upon the individual and tradition. Shamans don't have all the answers, it is just a career path in many cases, like a cop or an accountant. In some cases shamans are called by the spirits to be shamans, but those shamans won't work with tourists or teach people who have not been called, often those kind of shamans do not want to be shamans and think anyone who would want to be one is totally insane.

This is my ignorant thinking.

I would advise you that to me, the tone and content of the reply you quoted above indicates a person who is not to be trusted, not because they will deceive you, but because they are themselves already deceived. Again, this is my ignorant opinion.

 

[friken]

the tone and content of the reply you quoted above indicates a person who is not to be trusted, not because they will deceive you, but because they are themselves already deceived. Again, this is my ignorant opinion.

Thanks for the thoughts. I strongly agree with your concluding statements. I respect their opinion, but find it misguided. I was however impressed with the author's personal experience writeup. Regardless of how he came to aya, the amount of love and prayer put into the making of it etc he did have a very positive life changing experience aided by aya. That is always enjoyable to read about.

I am still quite new to dmt/aya myself and can definitely see value of learning from those who have spent decades exploring it for them self as well as guiding others in it's use. The type of shaman you mentioned who isn't looking to make a buck or setup Disneyland of aya -- I would really love to listen to advice and experience they have to offer.

I may even try to pick one of the better sounding retreats, if nothing else to be around others interested in exploring dmt/aya as I do not know any in my life circles. It would offer both the place and circle of people to discuss aya and their experiences in a real-world context.

 

[Spiral Eye]

I am also a bit skeptical as well. It would be way too easy to setup an aya retreat, label yourself shaman-uber-guru-extraordinaire, invite newcomers to experience dmt and watch them leave thinking the power of the experience was as much in the shaman as the DMT.

I totally agree with you on this. I have encountered various self-proclaimed shamans who use their sessions as an ego-boosting tool, who end up doing more harm then help in the process.

I also think that having a genuine shaman facilitating a ceremony is better than not. A shaman is someone who is able to lead group psychedelic sessions with the intention of facilitating growth and healing for the participants. Many of the techniques of "genuine shamans" (who aren't abusing their practice to get something from the participants of their sessions) are similar to techniques that psychotherapists use (I'm working on getting a degree/license in counseling psychology, my observation in plant medicine ceremonies has been that a lot of the techniques I have been taught in classes are very similar in nature to what I've seen used by the shamans). As such,I think it's valid to compare a plant journey without a shaman to a therapy session without a therapist... If you're own your own without a shaman, you can definitely introspect and you probably won't hurt yourself or anyone else too badly if you're experienced and knowledgeable, but you probably won't get nearly as much out of it as you would having a shaman who understands how to elicit healing and major internal work without hurting the participants' psyches.

I have strong feelings about the matter. I have had an ayahuasca session without a shaman... My friend that I was with (both of us are very experienced with psychedelics) totally freaked out and I didn't know what to do about it while I was also under the trance. And the whole flow of the experience was off, I don't feel like I really learned anything from it, other than that someone who know's what's going on should ideally be around.

 

[nen888]

..i think traditional shamans (to use the blanket term) can give good guidance in setting up and running of ceremony..ceremony functions as a good base for an experience..
also, any 'true' shamans/curanderos/indigenous healers i've encountered have a deep respect for and energy base with the 'ancestors' (the many who went before)..

but i completely agree with AlbertKLloyd:

In some cases shamans are called by the spirits to be shamans, but those shamans won't work with tourists or teach people who have not been called, often those kind of shamans do not want to be shamans and think anyone who would want to be one is totally insane.

..the big money advertised retreats are often not the real deal..
most indigenous south americans can't afford $1500 for a bit of ayahuasca ceremony..whoever still serves them is closer to the real deal (and far from the tourist route)
obviously everybody needs to survive, so i'm not saying all aya retreats are bogus, but there's a few to pick through as you note..friken..
what i would seriously warn against is non-indigenous westerners who say they've 'trained with' some shaman or tribe, and then offer commercial aya gigs..the stories of things gone wrong are many..if someone really has gone and spent say 5-7 years training with a tribe then fair enough..it's just a few popular modern aya-fascilitators are full of shit..

..if you can't spot or afford an individual or tradition which feels right..calls you..then you're better off with just spirit as your guide..

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

In contrast to mere healing shamans can also harm, launch psychic attacks and bad energy like death curses.

It isn't like it is a healing tradition, it has as much war and harm and peace and growth, it is neither good nor bad.

I don't know where the idea that shamans are always user friendly or about peace and love and growth came from but it is disturbingly inaccurate.

Maybe tourist friendly "shamans" are best, or Christ invoking religious groups...?

In some traditions the "Mesa" has a light side and a dark side... often you can't have one without the other. There is a new age spin on shamanism now that kind of whitewashes it or paints it as an ancient tradition of healing and sacred wisdom when that is oversimplifying it.

If you wouldn't take drugs (aya) with a voodoo priest, you might not want to take them with a traditional shaman.

Perhaps one of the newer neo-traditional new/age hippie 'shamans' is a much better choice?

 

[nen888]

^..haha..i'd take aya with a voodoo priest/priestess..
voodoo is the opposite of 'shaman' in the western new age as it has been stigmatised, associated with darkness..

what i trust about most true voodou circles (as opposed to individual) is that there are several houngan and mambo (priests and priestesses) as well as several drummers under a master drummer who follows the cues of the priests/esses..
..in other words it's a group effort (usually for the community/village) to maintain a good atmosphere and keep bad spirits away..it's not under one persons' authority (which is more open to bias/abuse)

..what is almost extinct from most indigenous societies is the safety net for all of this potential sorcery..
the traditional Law as interpreted by a circle or council of elders..whatever the variations in styles/taboos etc between indigenous tribes, the wisdom of the elders (and ancestors) is almost universal (but disappearing)
..the city-state south americans (glorified Mayans, Incas etc) were the first to move away from this ancient mode into a king-ship/economic hierarchy..

..i think if you can find a reasonably intact tribe still living traditionally you have a fairly high chance of finding trustworthy wisdom and amazing levels of insight..
but anthropologists have been trying to document all this as it vanishes..swamped by development and economic pressures..it's not on the tourist map..

there are good healers of all races..establishing a personal framework for deciding whether an individual is trustworthy is the key here, rather than following specific traditions IMO..
.

 

[Ilex]

In my opinion, the value of a shaman is mainly that they are knowledgeable on how to prepare the brew, and also how to arrange and facilitate an appropriate setting for the experience. A lot of people want the shaman there as a guide, and for a sense of security.

I have mostly done my own brewing, and feel than this is okay for anyone who is confident in their own ability to prepare the brew, arrange their setting and make their own ceremony. Most of the experiences where I was really able to let go to Ayahuasca were solo sessions, I found when I did it in a group setting with a shaman that the presence of strangers actually held me back a little.

 

[christian]

..the big money advertised retreats are often not the real deal..
most indigenous south americans can't afford $1500 for a bit of ayahuasca ceremony

correct. The locals pay like nothing to a few dollars for a ceremony. It's still possible to do arranged ceremonies with food and lodging in san francisco de yarinacocha for less that 150 dollars per week tho.

Certainly, working with a shaman is a fantastic experience not to be missed if your in the area. It's a social thing Aya is, i believe. The company of others, the malokka and mapacho being blown by others, and icaros is priceless.

Not only that, but a Shaman can help cure you.

Each to their own, but solo drinking must suck in comparison.

 

[jamie]

"Each to their own, but solo drinking must suck in comparison."


based on what? Are you speaking from a place of actual experience drinking at home?

 

[christian]

"Each to their own, but solo drinking must suck in comparison."


based on what? Are you speaking from a place of actual experience drinking at home?

Good point Jamie. I guess solo drinking at home's gonna be a hell of a lot more interesting than a well run shamanic ceremony in Peru.

Silly me.

 

[universecannon]

christian, he never said solo would be more interesting. what jamie asked was a very valid question that i'm wondering the answer to as well. theres really no need to get all defensive and sarcastic all the time

 

[jamie]

"Each to their own, but solo drinking must suck in comparison."


based on what? Are you speaking from a place of actual experience drinking at home?

Good point Jamie. I guess solo drinking at home's gonna be a hell of a lot more interesting than a well run shamanic ceremony in Peru.

Silly me.

Man you really have some kind of problem in the way you relate to people and express yourself.

..You are offended becasue you expressed an opinion of how much something must suck that in the past you have made it clear you have no experience with, and that opinion was questioned?..and then you get sarcastic and defensive about it. Pretty weird behaviour.

 

[christian]

Man you really have some kind of problem in the way you relate to people and express yourself.

I havent drunk solo. It has not so far appealed.

Although i spent 2 weeks in my hotel thinking about it, but it would just not be the same all alone in a tiny room by myself with nobody else there. In comparison, the malokka was awesome, as was the company. It's so much better to feel the company of other drinking partners and know you are not alone.

If it wasn't for the ceremony, i probably would never have tried it. The prescence of the Shaman and others was awesome, as i saw them with my eyes closed represented by strange animals and entities. Something i'll never forget.

I just cannot imagine a solo experience ever being like that, although it may have it's benefits for some.

Have you drunk in Ceremony , Jamie?

 

[friken]

Christian,

Was your ceremony at one of the retreats? If so can you share which one?

 

[universecannon]

"I just cannot imagine a solo experience ever being like that, although it may have it's benefits for some."

Have you read the forums? lol. Dozens of people here have been exploring aya solo for years, have reported amazing and beneficial experiences and don't regret it in the slightest.

I just think its incredibly silly and closed minded to just make your mind up and and automatically conclude that drinking alone will suck without ever even trying it (or vice versa). You seem to have a lot of preconceived notions that your projecting as reality.

A trip to the amazon or with some travelling shaman is simply not possible for me at the moment, and many others who would benefit from the medicine...why should we let that hold us back? looking back on my years of working with it, i sure as heck am glad i decided to build a relationship with these plants myself instead of just waiting around for years and years to afford a trip to SA, although that would be nice eventually.

Have your solo journeys with mushrooms or cactus been beneficial? A similar argument could be made about them you know.

 

[Silly(c)One]

Universecannon, you don't need to fly to Peru to drink Ayahuasca with others... Seek and thou shall find.

In fact, I agree 100% with christian : drinking Ayahuasca (or cactus or mushrooms) in a ceremonial context with other people is an extraordinary experience that can't be matched by drinking alone. Doesn't mean that drinking alone is not a good thing, it's just not the same...

I've had lots and lots of solo mushrooms, DMT and changa experiences in the last 20 years, but since I drank Ayahuasca in a ceremony (there are a few local groups of drinkers close to me) and since I've been initiated with mushrooms by a trained shaman a few months ago, I'll never see entheogens the same way.

Though that doesn't mean I won't drink alone, at the contrary, but always in a ceremony.
When in groups, there are different situations too, depending on the "level" of the participants, if you are the guide of the ceremony or a participant, etc. The lessons differ a lot.

A first approach to that kind of power is drumming circles...

 

[jamie]

"Have you drunk in Ceremony , Jamie?"

What does that even mean? Ceremony and group work happen all over not just in peru. "Ceremony" does not mean at a retreat in peru. Yes I have participated in both group work and "ceremony"..none of which happened in Peru.

 

[christian]

"Have you drunk in Ceremony , Jamie?"

What does that even mean? Ceremony and group work happen all over not just in peru. "Ceremony" does not mean at a retreat in peru. Yes I have participated in both group work and "ceremony"..none of which happened in Peru.

You need to lighten up Jamie. The reason i respond to you as i have done is due to your shit attitude towards me. Maybe it would really do you good to travel to Peru and have a traditional ceremony, if only to get you off the computer taking yourself too seriously as per usual!

 

[nen888]

..i think part of the definitional misunderstanding here is the core of what the traditional Curandero mainly does in ceremony..

..they 'suck out' negative 'darts' sent by negative people..they bring out and send away chaotic entities people have unknowingly collected..they find the specific icaro needed for each individual (even within a group)
..they supplement medicine with specific plants to treat physical ailments..
..they put a lot of work into curing people such that the session is usually not what would be called 'fun' for them..it's hard work (as they say) ..traditionally they did it as it was their calling from childhood, a traditional role needed in society, and they did it for the ancestors..
..and if something goes wrong, they take responsibility for it..they haven't done their job properly..

the $1500 group retreat (i'm sure some are ok) is not the above..
while there are some ayahuasqueros in this tourist scene who may do good, trustworthy work, there are others who are only doing it for the money..hence, the bigger the group the better the profit, not the healing..that's the difference..

people who train to be curanderos voyage solo in their training..and such training can be very challenging..
it's a fine line between a 'shaman' and a schizophrenic..

those who don't want to take such solo risks may prefer to do ceremony with some they trust who is experienced..
.
.