Vaping mescaline salt?

[Loveall]

For some reason there is no know way to vape mescaline freebase. If it is possible, perhaps that information will be available one day or I have missed it.

In the e-nicotine world, starting circa 2015 with the company Juul, nicotine organic salts such and benzoates came to market. Typically an organic acid is used to form the salt (see attachment).

I guess the PG/VG aerosol acts as a carrier and deposit the nicotine salt in the lungs. Lower wattage, higher resistance devices are preferred, perhaps they deliver larger dropplets (?).

This may never work for mescaline. Does anyone know? In the absence of other information I think it is worth a a try.

Need to find a mescaline salt that is soluble in PG/VG, or perhaps PG/VG and a little water. It may take a lot of puffs to get effects, but mescaline is long lasting and lungs may absorb better(?). A nice advantage to this is stability of the salt. If we get this to work, I would also try it on DMT as my DMT e-juices discolor over time to yellow and orange

I went ahead and did a first test, tried to dissolve mono-mescaline citrate in PG. It did not dissolve. Plan to test other organic salts in the future. Will also add a couple drops of water.

Any thoughts or info on this topic welcome. Thank you.

 

[Cheelin]

Are there mescaline receptor sites in lung lining tissues?

 

[Loveall]

Are there mescaline receptor sites in lung lining tissues?

I don't think so. Drug is simply absorbed through the lung tissue. Here is a review.

 

[Loveall]

Tested tartrate, malate, and fumarate salts also. Unfortunately, none seem soluble in PG.

Next will try to make mescaline benzoate and test that

 

[Loveall]

Mescaline benzoate conversion is going well so far.

Simply dissolved mescaline citrate in water, based with NaOH and pulled with toluene. Then, I added benzoic acid to the pulls. Benzoic acid is somewhat soluble in toluene.

A couple hours later and I'm seeing xtals forming in the Toluene (see image below).

Pretty sure the same would happen with xylene.

So, while benzoic acid did not form mescaline Xtals with ethyl acetate, it does seem to form them with Toluene. Hopefully this salt dissolves in PG like nicotine benzoate does

I reccomend those using toluene or xylene to try to salt their pulls directly with benzoic acid powder. They should get xtals in their solvent. Guess we could call this CITLO or CIXLO respectively.

May also work with DMT to prepare e-juices vaping salts that don't change color like FB DMT does

Benzoic acid is used in the food industry and available over the counter.

 

[Cheelin]

What’s your benzoate addition recco?

Let us know how the toke trip goes, too.

 

[Loveall]

What’s your benzoate addition recco?

Let us know how the toke trip goes, too.

To be determined, I've been slowly adding benzoic acid and checking pH with paper strips. So far so good, toluene went from basic to neutral.

The solubility of benzoic acid in toluene is 80mg/g at 20C (see attached). I imagine the technique will end up being very similar to citric acid and ethyl acetate. Robust with a lot of room to oversalt, so simply lazily drop in a teaspoon or so of benzoic acid powder and let it xtalize for a couple days.

The key is going to be if mescaline benzoate is soluble in PG or not. If it is, then will need to see if vaping is practical, it may take a lot of tokes to feel effects.

 

[Cheelin]

After a long & successful reefer career, my lungs would require sufficient additional benefits from smoking M to pass up the simplicity of dissolving cielo product in a shotglass of tang and just rondo-ing it.

 

[Loveall]

The mescaline benzoate crystal candidate is beautiful. Needles wich bunch up to a cotton candy like consistency. See image. They look a lot like mescaline citrate, but are fluffier.

And drumroll... they are soluble in PG

~70mg of salts dissolved in ~140mg of PG (~4 drops). These are very rough initial numbers.

How much is needed for vaping to possibly feel effects? IDK.

I think 10x less than oral would be a good start. That's 20mg to start low. At 25% concentration that's 4 big puffs at 60W for a low ohm setup.

I'll try to test this on the next few weeks.

 

[Cheelin]

Beautiful!

The master blaster jammin…

 

[Loveall]

Here is an interesting plot from the nicotine salt patent (US20150020824A1 - Nicotine salt formulations for aerosol devices and methods thereof - Google Patents)

Essentially, absortion into the blood is better and faster for e-juices using salt. Benzoic acid seems to come on top.

Makes sense for us to try this with Mescaline and DMT. Especially since mescaline FB is elusive and DMT FB changes color in PG/VG solution (in my case at least).

Hope is that benzoate salts are soluble in PG/VG for DMT also. The e-juice solution should have very stable shelf life and be less caustic/smoother. If it follows the trend with nicotine, absorption in the lungs may be good.

 

[oetzi13]

What do you think the potency of mescaline benzoate is? Like M. citrate?

never mind! Just saw loveall's answer on another post:
Mescaline benzoate would be ~74% as potent by mass as mescaline HCl

 

[Loveall]

After discussing with Mindlusion this path does not seem viable. It would take too much vaping to feel effects. I'm dropping this for now.

DMT salts could be interesting. If anyone else is tired of the DMT e-juice changing over time they can try adding an organic acid to convert to a salt and see if everything stays in solution. I tried DMT benzoate and it did not dissolve well (went into PG solution when warm but crashed at room temp).

 

[Cheelin]

After discussing with Mindlusion this path does not seem viable. It would take too much vaping to feel effects. I'm dropping this for now.

DMT salts could be interesting. If anyone else is tired of the DMT e-juice changing over time they can try adding an organic acid to convert to a salt and see if everything stays in solution. I tried DMT benzoate and it did not dissolve well (went into PG solution when warm but crashed at room temp).

My lungs and nasal passages are rejoicing, they have taken sufficient abuse.

 

[skelly0311]

After discussing with Mindlusion this path does not seem viable. It would take too much vaping to feel effects. I'm dropping this for now.

Why aren't we assuming a drastic increase in potency when going from ingesting orally to vaping? A poster here

https://www.reddit.com/r/mescaline/comments/u5ej6t/iv_mescaline_hcl

states that he iv'd 37.5 mg, and had significant affects with a 10 minute onset. If vaping even comes close to that, and assuming this isn't harsh on the lungs, it might be a worthwhile experiment, as this would greatly increase the availability of mescaline. I also find the potential for a shorter onset quite appealing as well.

 

[Loveall]

After discussing with Mindlusion this path does not seem viable. It would take too much vaping to feel effects. I'm dropping this for now.

Why aren't we assuming a drastic increase in potency when going from ingesting orally to vaping? A poster here

https://www.reddit.com/r/mescaline/comments/u5ej6t/iv_mescaline_hcl

states that he iv'd 37.5 mg, and had significant affects with a 10 minute onset. If vaping even comes close to that, and assuming this isn't harsh on the lungs, it might be a worthwhile experiment, as this would greatly increase the availability of mescaline. I also find the potential for a shorter onset quite appealing as well.

I forget the details of the discussion with mindlusion. Of course, doing the test is always worth it. For me, mindlusion's outlook was enough to deprioritize it below other ongoing work for now.

Mescaline salts are also very bitter and vaping leaves a taste in the mouth because of aerosolized droplets landing on the tounge. This kind of bitterness is severe enough to make harmala lactate salt uncomfortable for vaping, which is disappointing after all the hard work fining a soluble harmala form in e-juice.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

FWIW, I don't mind bitterness (eat lots of bitter salad, it's good for you...) so perhaps one day I can be the guinea pig. Improved efficiency of use of precious molecules is an act of conservation.

 

[skelly0311]

I'm willing to continue this experiment. I've gotten pretty good at CIELO, and I'm getting ready do another extraction in the coming weeks. When u have time, can you outline the differences going from mescaline citrate to mescaline benzoate. I'm assuming I can't just simply switch out the citric acid with benzoic acid?

 

[Loveall]

I'm willing to continue this experiment. I've gotten pretty good at CIELO, and I'm getting ready do another extraction in the coming weeks. When u have time, can you outline the differences going from mescaline citrate to mescaline benzoate. I'm assuming I can't just simply switch out the citric acid with benzoic acid?

I seem to remember that mescaline benzoate did not precipitate from the EA extract after adding benzoic acid.

It's an old memory though. Maybe I posted that in the threads somewhere.

 

[Brennendes Wasser]

So the Benzoate Anion in general seems much less soluble in water than other Acids, but vice versa has a high solubility in organic solvents. Therefore if coming from Ethyl Acetate you would probably need to concentrate A LOT to like 1 (expected) g / 1 ml.

Another way would be using a solvent that is already much less polar from the beginning. For DMT Toluene seems perfect - nearly no solubility of the Benzoate salt at -20 °C, which would be only ~ 240 mg / 100 ml. So if you could replace Ethyl Acetate with Toluene you are probably able to directly exchange that Acid. But then no idea if the CIELO TEK still works like a charm? Also polarity based on PubChem is much higher for Meskalin, so chances are high that you would be better at simply using Ethyl Acetate and letting it evaporate down to a point where precipitation starts strongly. But obviously carries the risk of co-precipitating other stuff if you need to evaporate too much?

Would be indeed interesting, for many people it may sound like violating the cultural aspects behind that medicine with that ROA, but actually smoking DMT instead of making a Brew is just exactly the same thing :?