Veganism

[Ufostrahlen]

Do you see the irony in this statement?

Can you see that I'm not only criticizing form but also content?

You literally fund the animal genocide you claim to be against.

Yes, I literally fund the animal genocide (sic!) I drank a bottle of Pepsi today. In return Pepsi gased 3 cows. :surprised I'm glad I don't have any business relations with the other companies.

 

[leaf]

IMHO the article is kind of bias against vegan diets..
When I went vegan the first thing people were worried about was what supplements I would be taking .. to keep up with the meat eating world. But since meat-eating is a topic unto itself I have no reason to believe that the things found souly in flesh (animal or human) are infact needed to survive & thrive on a plant based diet. I reason that these statistics were measured by meat eating scientists and handed down to Doctors as absolutely fundamental to the health of Everyone on the planet, which I cannot buy into. :twisted: :!:


Jamie:
So what you mean is, Plants, Animals and Humankind are sentient, aware and have feelings, though a little different from eachother & we should respect and be greatfull for our daily sustenance. While, as universecannon suggests, being mindfull of the environment in every way we can supporting local harvest and planting our own gardens.. (I am working on this, & it is trying) I can agree with this mostly, thanks.

I believe that a green sunny healthy Gaia Earth full of nutritious vegetation is meant to be taken into our bodies and to become one with & live through ourselves. Like psychedelic plants part of their life is lived through us to some degree.. from experience of fasting, Sungazing & Solar breathing (accumulation of energy from Sun or breathing in Solar prana) such as breatharian is a path that is able to be taken.

 

[universecannon]

In regards to the article in question

A ton of vitamin D can be obtained very easily through mushrooms if they are put out in the sun for a time. Or by just sitting in the sun a bit every week yourself.. Like humans, mushrooms also get vitamin D from the sun

Humans getting vitamin D through animals products isn't nearly as effective as these two methods IMO.. My mother actually eats copious amounts of animals products of all kinds, and has for her entire life, but is nevertheless still vitamin D deficient according to her doc. Even in our animal-product obsessed western society, vitamin D deficiency is becoming a big issue. This is all compounded by the fact that the medical communities recommendations for vitamin D (and C for that matter) are considered ridiculously low according to many.. Suggesting that we just need to eat more animal products is to completely ignore the complexity of the issue. Regardless of animal products or not, imo, if you aren't getting sufficient amounts from mushrooms and/or the sun then I would consider supplementing just to be on the safe side. I do in the winter at times when the other methods aren't as available. And when it comes to vitamin D, moar better.

The article (and my post) paints a limited picture because most people are eating low quality food from increasingly nutrient deficient soils. And I think there is ample evidence that humans ability to assimilate and make use of nutrients (this ties into DHA as well, which btw is most important in early life and the conversion is boosted upwards of 15% during pregnancy) has become severely atrophied in recent times, but that's a whole other topic. How this ties into the new world of microflora and fermentation in the colon providing nutrients is also a factor and makes things even more complex. But because of all of this, I think it's difficult to take what we know now about the average human body now and how it currently processes/creates vitamins and project it back into the extremely distant past in order to find the 'perfect diet' by current standards, simply because we just aren't the same. This ties back into b12, obviously, since the soil can greatly effect the amounts available, and our bodies ability to make any use of it can as well. Some lifelong "vegans" show plenty of b12 in their bloodwork even without supplementation. Some don't. But taking into consideration the above, I think it's a good idea to take it as a precaution. It's interesting to note that in the wild we likely ate a decent amount of insects, either by choice or inadvertently, as they would often be on/in the plants or fruits we were eating; and many insects contain significant amounts of vitamin B12. Also this is interesting as it highlights other possible plant sources. Discovery of Novel Sources of Vitamin B12 in Traditional Korean Foods from Nutritional Surveys of Centenarians

 

[universecannon]

I buy everything at the grocery store. My money supports companies that strive for suppling the market with tasty & healthy food, because the customer is always right.

You don't grow/forage any of your own food and at least try and obtain a portion of it from local farmers markets? You should maybe consider broadening your horizons.

 

[Jin]

we are what we eat

i totally endorse cannibalism , for this is how we can remain human :twisted:

not to mention some trace minerals and nutrients that might be found in human meat ,

don't be a vegetable or an animal

be human , eat a human :thumb_up:

 

[HumbleTraveler]

I used to be of the mindset that meat was a necessity. Ive come to find that, for myself, I have cut meat out of my diet to the point that I only have wild caught fish maybe once or twice a week avoiding factory farmed fish and chicken that was fed non-gmo feed maybe once every two weeks. I have eliminated red meat and I do my absolute best to consume a primarily plant based organic raw diet as much as possible. A debate like this will go on endlessly. Unfortunately, there will never be a way to convince every one that eating meat is "wrong" on any level whether from a moral/ethical standpoint or a health standpoint. Animals will continue to be slaughtered, and thats it. Is it sad to some extent absolutely because nothing and no one should have to go through the strain and trauma of the conditions the animals face, but it won't change. Corporations rely on these animals for their profit, and when you attempt to mess with big business and profit, you simply wont win.

For me, it has absoluitely been a change for the better. I no longer need deodorant if I dont want to as I have no sort of extreme odor coming off me, I just feel better with less irritability and lethargy by mid day than I used to. I have way more energy too throughout the day and I even get out of bed with less grogginess, I cant even remember the last time I had a cold or was sick. I know its worked for me but I wont go around to people and try to convert them or tell them eating meat is bad. While I believe it is for me, people are not open to hearing that what theyre doing for themselves isnt working in "your opinion." Thats for them to decide, and if they so choose to at least give it a shot and do it the right way by replacing the protein loss with a plant based protein so that they dont end up feeling horrible, then thats their choice to try.

If the me 3 years ago met me today, me 3 years ago would just be completely flabbergasted.

 

[Jin]

i also endorse factory farming of animals

those poor little creatures growing in confined spaces , need to be immeditely freed from there miserable lives , i say FREE ThE CHICKEN , eat it and free it from its miserable life in cages

it is totally im-moral on our part to hunt on our own and take the life of an animal which is free on its own

so pls support factory farming , this is the most ethical thing to do

don't hunt and kill a free animal , let it live free
this is a humble request

the soul is immortal , no weapon can hurt it , fire cant burn it and water does not make it wet , free the soul that is in a cage

freedom is more important than life , a life of torture and suffering is no life atall

 

[Ufostrahlen]

You don't grow/forage any of your own food and at least try and obtain a portion of it from local farmers markets? You should maybe consider broadening your horizons.

Well, the grocery stores here in my area also carry local produced food, so going to the local farmers market is unnecessary. Another funny situation: the local produced tomatoes I saw some days ago (traveled max. 50km) were also the cheapest compared to ones from other countries. My aunt proceeded to buy some.

I mostly buy tomatoes in the form of vegetable juice, which is produced domestically. If Auxin were a neighbor, I'd drop by and try to purchase some of his stuff. Or get educated on how to do these kind of things. Land however doesn't come cheap, I'd probably settle for some hydroponic systems.

 

[leaf]

woah, interesting article.

These quotes suggest eating fermented vegetables (that produce their own b12) actually allows better absorption than animal sources of b-12. (will recheck to be sure) Also it says throughout most of the studies that female centenarians lived slightly longer than male centenarians. Males ate a bit more animal products than females. At the end of the study it states 87.1% of females centenarians diets consisted of plant sources.. I am being bias

Vegan people would try to shoot me if they knew I didn't suppliment b-12 at all. unless by accident, none of those fortified things. I was very against the Absoloutely you must take this magical vitamin attitude. so going without. I realize it comes naturally from the soil on the plants skin and can be made in a lab setting.

The reason I think it's so high tech to be a vegan is we're still figuring out our bodies, how to make them run smooth and what little tweaks we can switch or add to obtain a certain place of body, form of mind. The things we choose to put into our diet, certain teas and oils etcs, cwe before boiling interesting teas etc. are basically a big part in how we move through the world & Universe. be light. Fasting in order to clean out or cleanse is way more important than people make it out to be.


I would like to point out though (sorry) that most beef is not grass fed meaning they don't get natural b-12 and are injected with it to make sure you get your dose. Kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it? in some ways at least. If you want heart dis ease I'd say go for the beef, (don't think it really matters if it's free range but in a way that could be nice of you)
Oh plus I am a believer in the idea that you do absorb the negative vibes that come from a poor little creature born into a CAGE with a life full of SUFFERING and it's death planned years before, to the chunk of meat that you (anyone) chose to $buy$ simply cause it's the norm and social stuff blah, in order to evolve we must have had to become flesh eating monkeys.. there are other factors completely alien to this I'm sure. I think most people just don't even know what the fek a vegan even is. according Jins logic we're plants..8)


everytime we leave someone to suffer we will have to come back, till there is no more suffering . maybe your next life is already planned

That was dark. Try Veganism :surprised


Here are some quotes from the article , I think they mean plants with "total foods"

"The estimated average requirement (EAR) of vitamin B12 for elderly Koreans aging 75 and older is 2.0 μg/day [42]. In order to find out how much foods of plant origin contributed to adequacy of vitamin B12 intake for Korean centenarians, we compared the adequacy of vitamin B12 intake from total foods to that from the animal foods. As shown in Table 7, the result from total food consumption showed that 51.4% of subjects consumed an adequate amount of vitamin B12 (above the EAR of 2.0 μg/day) and 34.3% of subjects consumed a very low level of vitamin B12 (under 50% of the EAR), while the result from the analysis of animal foods showed that only 35.7% of subjects consumed an adequate amount of vitamin B12 while 42.9% of subjects consumed an inadequate amount of vitamin B12. These results imply that the consumption of Korean foods from plant sources, such as fermented foods and seaweeds, improved the nutritional status of vitamin B12 for these centenarians by increasing the percentage of the adequate vitamin B12 intake group by 15.7% and decreasing of the numbers of very low vitamin B12 intake group by 8.6%."

"It is well known that most older Koreans traditionally consumed a diet low in animal foods and low in fat, dominated by cereals and vegetables. Centenarians in Korea seem to have been keeping to this traditional dietary pattern with one recent study revealing that female Korean centenarians were consuming 87.1% of the foods in their diet from plant sources"

"When dealing with the mystery of why a much greater percentage of Korean centenarians did not suffer from vitamin B12 deficiency, we found that commonly consumed traditional Korean soybean-fermented foods (such as Doenjang, Chungkukjang, and Ganjang), vegetable-fermented foods with fermented fish sauce (such as Kimchi), and seaweeds (such as laver) contained higher than expected levels of vitamin B12 . Surprisingly, almost a third of vitamin B12 intake in the centenarian diet was coming from the consumption of these traditional foods."

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/cggr/2010/374897/

 

[jamie]

there is actually no reliable evidence linking beef or meat to heart disease that I know of. All those old claims about cholesterol have been shown to be incorrect. It is actually the mass consumption of certain plant products(like grain) that raise LDL and can increase the risk of heart disease. The real issue is grains, weather it is animals fed grains or humans eating too much grains..you end up with high LDL and omega 6 levels.

The saturated fat myth is being debunked more and more as well.

"Oh plus I am a believer in the idea that you do absorb the negative vibes that come from a poor little creature born into a CAGE with a life full of SUFFERING and it's death planned years before, to the chunk of meat that you (anyone) chose to $buy$ simply cause it's the norm and social stuff blah"

But how is that different from eating plants born into the cage of mono-cultured suffering, that strips the land of any biological diversity killing off multiple species in the process, with the death of those same plants(and the devastation to the land) planned beforehand just so you can have your organic vegan food? I have a certification in organic horticulture, so I do have a relevant understanding of what I am talking about when it comes to agricultural practices and the process of attaining organic certification... and I can tell you that in canada(and its even worse in the USA) what passes as "organic" is at times horrendous. In the USA your organic vegan plant foods are likely to still have been grown as a monocrop, with "organic" certified pesticides, possibly fertilized with human sewage (feces etc from a population of people who certainly are not "organic" in the sense we are discussing..and yes in the USA this is all allowed as certifiable organic practice), stripping the soil of the biological diversity(and nutrient density) over and over through constant turning, airiating etc...so if you want to talk about negative vibes, then explain to me how this is any different? You continue to discuss meat in the context of factory farming yet when it comes to plant foods this aspect is glossed over.

If you are not really living outside of that system, then you are just another person pointing at others, while turning around and doing the same thing. If you really knew what went on in much of plant based agriculture(even organic) you would be appauled. I know I am.

WHy are we talking about meet eaters are simply doing what is the "norm"?...as if you dont do the same thing when you go buy factory farmed plant foods? Driving outside of the city to the only polyculture organic farm you can find that has real free range animals living a decent life you can go see in person to verify how the process takes place is hardly the norm. When was the last time you did that to find out how ethical, local and low impact your food was?

When talking about plant sources of vitamine b12..it is relevant to mention first that many of these are actually b12 analogues, which have not been shown yet to be exactly bioavailable in the way that cobalamin is..at this time it is speculation.

The Centenarians all eat some animal products, so that is irrelevant to this discussion. It is like trying to use the China Study as a support for veganism. It is a sort of fallacy. Some minimal animal products is not the same as NO animal products. That should be clear. Im not saying vegans cant live a long life, I am just pointing out that we seem to be jumping to conclusions here.

Im getting tired of diets and lifestyles that are based around isms that define who people are. I spent enough time in those circles in my life, promoting them myself and feeling like I was being radical..now I just see it all as a kind of food fascism. It's so simple..observe natural systems and pay attention. It's so simple. You dont need isms and political idealogies to tell you what is good for you. All you need to do is learn to listen to what is already there. Thats it. you dont need to tell others over and over what is best for them, when you do it is because(IMO) you are really needing to tell yourself..and the realization of that objective is far more profound a thing to ponder then the alternative.

 

[leaf]

Well actually yeah there are studies linking alot of different (heart specific) problems or `dis eases` from eating red meat.

It was an interesting study, There has to be some other reason besides b12 that is causing such longevity..? they must just drink a certain tea.

Alot of people have made fermented mixtures for a long time. That's not to say b12 is completely necessary, though.

Forest Gardens

 

[Handel]

I'm not a vegan/vegetarian, but for spiritual reasons I have toyed with the idea of a diet that minimizes meat, while still receiving the necessary nutrients. It's not a vegan diet, not even a strict vegetarian diet, but given my health history (undetected celiac and malabsorption for many years), it might just be the balance I'd need to consume fewer animal products without starving my body further. So far, this is just an idea in my head:

- Gluten-free vegetarian diet with pastured eggs, fermented dairy (not plain milk).
- No processed foods, not too much sugar, or inflammatory vegetable seed oils/margarine (coconut oil, olive oil, butter, and avocado oil are ok).
- Once a week: wild caught Alaskan salmon
- Once a week: wild caught sardines (canned ok too)
- Once a week: oysters (canned ok too)
- Twice a month: pastured lamb/goat/beef liver
- Twice a month: pastured lamb/goat/beef heart
- Multiple times a week, in soups: home-made bone broth from pastured bones

I ran the numbers on Chonometer that counts nutrients, and eating just 100 gr of these animal products as described, provide the necessary DHA, B12 (found in liver in extreme amounts), selenium, iodine, zinc (found mostly in oysters), CoQ10 (found in heart), iron etc. This is really not a lot of meat/fish: it's only in 4 meals per week, out of 21 meals. I picked the specific fish and shelfish for their nutrient density (especially oysters are a powerhouse), and also the meat I'd eat only once a week, would also be the most nutrient dense there is (liver and heart). Bone broth is required for my joints and my too-hurt gut.

I would like to make a special mention here regarding the liver/heart/bones. From the vegan's point of view, an animal would need to be sacrificed for me to have these items. However, I see it the other way around: animals are killed PRIMARILY for their muscle meat, while often, their bones and offal are thrown away, or is made as pet food. Americans don't eat these things usually (although other cultures do). So the way I see it is that I eat these very nutrient-dense parts, but these are the *throw-away* parts. As far as meat producers are concerned, these are almost waste products, not what keeps them in business!

Plus, everything has to be pastured/wild, so the animal/fish lived a good life. I don't endorse factory farming.

So, what do you think? Could this be "better than nothing" given my circumstances and thinking, or for someone to be truly compassionate and spiritual needs to be 100% vegan? This is a serious question I have had in my mind since I became spiritual last year, after many years of atheism.

 

[Ufostrahlen]

May work for you:

DHA: ALA (>1200 mg/d)
B12: supplement; intake with meal (observe the Tolerable upper intake levels [UL] & RDA)
selenium, iodine, zinc, CoQ10, iron: supplement; intake with meal (observe the UL & RDA)

joints: 1500mg glucosamine & 800mg chondroitin / day (mostly not from vegetarian sources, observe the UL & RDA)
gut: kefir ? (I remember a special thread here on the nexus)
liver: jiaogulan
heart: hawthorn & green tea
bones: calcium, vitamin k & d (kale, shiitake, supplement (observe the UL & RDA)
brain: creatine & DHA or ALA

Oh, and don't spend thousands of dollars on supplements, most are really affordable, even if you buy quality. Look around and compare prices. I remember someone recommending the vitaminshoppe, probably a good site to start with.

So, what do you think? Could this be "better than nothing" given my circumstances and thinking, or for someone to be truly compassionate and spiritual needs to be 100% vegan?

Only you can decide. Who will stop you in the end? The spiritual police? What does spiritual even mean? Jin made a good point: free the soul from the body, nuke a whale.

Compassion is easier: Does it have eyes? Is it a mammal? Do your mirror neurons acknowledge the sentient being?

 

[Ufostrahlen]

Furthermore:

An article by Dr. Winston Craig, Professor of Nutrition, published in a reputable scientific journal. If you don't like odd nutritional advice from medical students or woo-promoting hippies.

The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition is a monthly peer-reviewed medical journal in the field of clinical nutrition.[1] According to the Journal Citation Reports, it has a 2009 impact factor of 6.307, ranking it third among 66 journals in the category "Nutrition & Dietetics".[2]

The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Health effects of vegan diets Am J Clin Nutr 2009;89(suppl):1627S–33S.

ABSTRACT
Recently, vegetarian diets have experienced an increase in popularity. A vegetarian diet is associated with many health benefits because of its higher content of fiber, folic acid, vitamins C and E, potassium, magnesium, and many phytochemicals and a fat content that is more unsaturated. Compared with other vegetarian diets, vegan diets tend to contain less saturated fat and cholesterol and more dietary fiber. Vegans tend to be thinner, have lower serum cholesterol, and lower blood pressure, reducing their risk of heart disease. However, eliminating all animal products from the diet increases the risk of certain nutritional deficiencies. Micronutrients of special concern for the vegan include vitamins B-12 and D, calcium, and long-chain n-3 (omega-3) fatty acids. Unless vegans regularly consume foods that are fortified with these nutrients, appropriate supplements should be consumed. In some cases, iron and zinc status of vegans may also be of concern because of the limited bioavailability of these minerals.

[..]

SUMMARY
Vegans are thinner, have lower serum cholesterol and blood pressure, and enjoy a lower risk of CVD. BMD and the risk of bone fracture may be a concern when there is an inadequate intake of calcium and vitamin D. Where available, calcium- and vitamin D–fortified foods should be regularly consumed. There is a need for more studies on the relation between vegan diets and risk of cancer, diabetes, and osteoporosis. Vitamin B-12 deficiency is a potential problem for vegans, so that the use of vitamin B-12–fortified foods or supplements are essential. To optimize the n–3 fatty acid status of vegans, foods rich in ALA, DHA-fortified foods, or DHA supplements should be regularly consumed. Vegans generally have an adequate iron intake and do not experience anemia more frequently than others. Typically, vegans can avoid nutritional problems if appropriate food choices are made. Their health status appears to be at least as good as other vegetarians, such as lactoovovegetarians. (Other articles in this supplement to the Journal include references 83–109.)

Other articles by the author:

Position of the American Dietetic Association: vegetarian diets. J Am Diet Assoc. 2009;109:
1266-1282

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.

A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods. This article reviews the current data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, n-3 fatty acids, iron, zinc, iodine, calcium, and vitamins D and B-12. [..]

The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics is the United States' largest organization of food and nutrition professionals, with close to 72,000 members. After nearly 100 years as the American Dietetic Association (ADA), the organization officially changed its name to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (A.N.D.) in 2012.[2] The organization’s members are primarily registered dietitians (RDs) and dietetic technicians as well as many researchers, educators, students, nurses, physicians, pharmacists, clinical and community dietetics professionals, consultants and food service managers.[3]

Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

* Iron status of vegetarians.
* Nutrition concerns and health effects of vegetarian diets.

 

[ShamanicYogi]

Wow. What a lot of resistance from the practice of ahimsa. It is different for people who hunt their own fish, etc. I am talking about the mainstream. And regarding the resistance of this kind of awareness about where meat and dairy come from, it is all good.

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

If I would have made the post today, I would have phrased things differently because I am more mellow these days about the matter. Nonetheless, the message is the same: do not harm animals. The Native Americans used buffalo and bison and used the whole animal. The indigenous people of America used the buffalo and bison in a sacred manner. If you are not using the animals you eat and take milk from in a likewise, then you would be wise to reconsider your support of factory farming for you meat and dairy. It is for your benefit as well.
I understand about labels. This post is about ahimsa, which is non-violence and non-harming. Ahimsa is the practice of minimalizing harm. Ahimsa is a value, not a label. It is a practice. It is a way to liberation. There are many paths to enlightenment, yet none of them pass through violence.
Meditate and trip on it.