Vinegar/lime Extraction (Q21) (pic's added)

[Swarupa]

I'm planning my next extraction very soon and decided to go with Q21's tek.

I have obtained 5 ltr pure aectic acid (yellowish liquid) & 250g MHRB, im planning on mixing 3.5ltr of the acid with the MHRB in a 5 ltr container, and freezing/thawing with heat over 3/4 days, then i will filter it all through a t-shirt and let it settle, decant, then basify/pull.

Does this sound like it would work well?
Im assuming i need to add a lot more lye to basify seeing as its going to be a pure acid.

Thanks in advance for any help

 

[endlessness]

You dont need to use pure acetic acid, vinegar would have worked just as well..

But now that you have pure acetic acid, you need just a few drops of that in a water solution to lower the pH enough, do not use pure acetic acid for extraction! 5l will last you more than a lifetime, really unnecessary.

Regarding lye, basify till its black. Around 1g:1g bark:lye is one ratio which will work, it can probably be quite less (unless you used a way too concentrated acid), and it can definitely be more but its wasteful to use so much lye. Just basify till its black and a bit more.

Also do note that its impossible for anybody to tell exactly how much lye because we dont know exactly how much acid you are using. If you have a specific number, one could make theoretical calculations using Moles, to see exactly how much lye is needed to neutralize that amount of acid and then to raise the pH, but its completely unnecessary to make this calculation. As I said, just basify till its black.

Regarding your old extraction, I think it will still work, you are giving up too easily. Nothing is lost until you threw it away.

Also I would like to ask you to maybe dont make so many threads (and posts with same questions). Try to use the 'extraction help' forum and the official extraction help thread.


(oh and one other thing.. pure acetic acid is colourless, not yellow)

 

[Swarupa]

I might aswell return the aectic acid as i already have vinegar & i haven't opened the aectic acid yet, so i'll be using vinegar now, thanks for the tips.

Seeing as i have PH strips i'll add vinegar to 3 litres of water until its PH2-4, then add the 250g MHRB, i'm aiming to freeze/thaw at least 3 times, then filter/settle overnight/decant/basify to PH12, then pull 3 times.

I only made a new thread to have this as the extraction thread, so i'll post problems/pictures in here as i progress, but i'll take on board what you said

 

[endlessness]

no problem, now that the thread is already made better you make good use of it and show us some pictures of the extraction and hopefully some crystal porn at the end

yeah acetic acid is not really necessary, but its not bad to have a little bit at home too (no need for 5l though), for other uses. I like to use dilute pure acetic acid for salting mescaline pulls for example, I find one can get purer results than vinegar saltings (even though pure white vinegar is theoretically only acetic acid, in my experience it has never evaporated clean like acetic acid). But for mimosa extraction, vinegar will be just perfect

 

[Swarupa]

Im hoping to get started on this tomorrow, it should be interesting with the freeze/thaw cycles to see how the yield turns out

In theory how much vinegar should i use to acidify 3ltr litres of water?
I'm thinking about 1 ltr to be sure, justine recommended a 4:1 ratio of water:vinegar, i've seen some say more, some say use pure vinegar, its just that the PH strips may not arrive for about 10 days & i could get started on the freeze/thaw earlier

 

[endlessness]

4:1 water:vinegar is fine, many times I have used less and it also worked just as well.. but yeah 4:1 should be safe.

 

[Trickster]

... until its PH2-4,

There is huge difference in acid concentration between pH2 and pH4. 100 times to be exact. You may have problems reaching pH2 with vinegar and this is not necessary. pH ~3.5 is enough.

add the 250g MHRB,

I'd suggest to use smaller amounts of mhrb for your first experimental extractions. Until I am sure to have polished all the steps I do small-scale 50 g or less extractions.

im aiming to freeze/thaw at least 3 times, then filter/settle overnight/decant/basify to PH12/pull 3 times.

To this procedure I would add cooking mhrb for an hour or 2 at least 2 times.

Decant your liquid after the first cook, let it settle while you're cooking your mhrb in fresh, slightly acidified water. Third cooking in plain fresh water would be even better.

Collect liquids from all cooks, let it settle, decant, filter, reduce and proceed with basification.

If you follow these steps, only bunk mhrb may prevent you from collecting beautifuly smelling, looking, tasting spice.

Good luck!

 

[Trickster]

... it should be interesting with the freeze/thaw cycles to see how the yield turns out

I do not think freeze/thaw is a complete substitute for cooking mhrb in acidified water. Tho it does shorten your cooking time.

I never tried to do freeze/thaw alone. If you do that successfully it will be a valuable addition to our common knowledge base

 

[Swarupa]

I'm going to use some heat to thaw aswell, not much though, just sit the container on a radiator while it thaws and give it lots of agitation. I'm definitely not doing the cook this time but hopefully taking my time with it means i should get most of the goods out, i'm very much looking forward to it. I think i'll prefer taking my time as trying to do a STB in one day, although convenient, i feel i disrespected the process trying to rush it so much.

 

[Trickster]

... i'm definitely not doing the cook this time

Why not? Any special reason? Cooking is a sure way to increase the rate at which the precious molecule migrate to your acidified water.

... ill prefer taking my time as trying to do a STB in one day although convenient i feel i disrespected the process trying to rush it so much

I like this approach very much. My average extraction takes a week or so. But I would do anything that potentially may increase my yield.

 

[Swarupa]

... i'm definitely not doing the cook this time

Why not? Any special reason? Cooking is a sure way to increase the rate at which the precious molecule migrate to your acidified water.

To be honest just trying to absorb all this info & different teks has made me want to keep it as simple as possible, i know once you know it you know it, and then its no biggie adding in extra steps, but when starting out i just want to keep it simple. Also the electric cooker in my room is very hard to get a constant temperature with, it's either boiling or nothing, gently simmering is almost impossible.

Justine also suggested that heating isn't totally necessary so i'll probably stick with the freeze/thaw cycle, although i'll cycle it at least 3 times. My electric heater does go pretty high aswell, the solution can sit on there all night thawing out, then back in the freezer in the morning.

You also mentioned it could be helpful to other people in the forum aswell, so i'll give it a go to see if the yield is significantly lower, i'm not overly bothered about losing half a gram or so if it does end up being much lower than usual.

 

[justine]

Actually I read that heating was unnecessary from endlessness but don't discard your bark before you finish your tek just to be sure.

 

[Trickster]

You also mentioned it could be helpful to other people in the forum aswell so i'll give it a go to see if the yield is significantly lower, i'm not overly bothered about losing half a gram or so if it does end up being much lower than usual

Sorry. I was worrying too much about YOUR yield . You're right. Experience often is more important than the result.

Indeed it is interesting to find out how much you can get applying only freeze/thaw cycles. Just keep your mhrb. You may have to get back to the old cooking method:wink: .

Actually I read that heating was unnecessary from endlessness but don't discard your bark before you finish your tek just to be sure.

There are couple of teks that do not use boiling, but they still require reduction of the acidic solution. For example, THP tek, developed by Dagger, requires 100 x mhrb in grams. This is 20 l of water for 200 g of mhrb!

I tried this tek for brewing aya and it is very efficient. But it is so efficient because it uses fresh water passing through the mhrb powder all the time. You may use the same water over and over but due to saturation solubility of actives will drop.

So, if I were you, I would use fresh acidified water for 2nd and 3rd freeze/thaw cycles. Something like this:

1. Soak mhrb in acidic water.
2. Freeze-thaw.
3. Settle, decant. Put the solution in a fridge to settle even more.
4. Soak mhrb in fresh acidified water.
5. Freeze-thaw.
6. Settle, decant. Put the solution in a fridge.
7. Soak mhrb in fresh acidified water.
8. Freeze-thaw.
9. Settle, decant.
10. Combine solutions from 3 cycles and reduce to 500 ml.
11. Basify
12. Pull 3-5 times
13. Combine pulls and reduce NPS until cloudy.
14. Freeze-precip.
15. Decant NPS and dry the crystals.

 

[Swarupa]

I see what your saying, to get the most out of the MHRB by adding fresh water/vinegar each time, id definitely need to boil it all down afterwards as it would be around 9 litres!

Its do-able, although this time i'm gonna try it with just one lot of vinegar/water, but i promise i will keep the MHRB so i can always do more extraction afterwards

Do you think a higher ratio of vinegar to water would allow it to hold more actives?
That's why i wanted to originally use pure vinegar as i thought it would get more good stuff out...

Im also looking into using lime rather than lye...although i have around 3-400g lye to use so may just use it this time then switch to lime

 

[endlessness]

Actually I read that heating was unnecessary from endlessness but don't discard your bark before you finish your tek just to be sure.

Did I really say that? Heating will increase the solubility of alkaloids in solution and also speed up the break up of bark to release more dmt, so definitely you'll need to heat if you want a good yield. Unless you use a THP, but then as trickster said you will need heat anyways to reduce later on.

 

[justine]

Actually I read that heating was unnecessary from endlessness but don't discard your bark before you finish your tek just to be sure.

Did I really say that? Heating will increase the solubility of alkaloids in solution and also speed up the break up of bark to release more dmt, so definitely you'll need to heat if you want a good yield. Unless you use a THP, but then as trickster said you will need heat anyways to reduce later on.

Then it was from some other baron of the nexus

edit : I remember that person said that after 3 cold simmering+filtering the 4th one would come out completely clear.

 

[Swarupa]

After this it seems my yield may be affected but i have my heart set on doing it this way, let's see... im sure with some decent freeze/heated thaw, shaking, shamanic singing & really squeezing the juice out the MHRB, i'll be able to get a decent yield.

 

[Trickster]

I see what your saying, to get the most out of the MHRB by adding fresh water/vinegar each time, id definitely need to boil it all down afterwards as it would be around 9 litres!

Did you think of doing a small-scale extraction? Everything will be easier, and even in case of complete failure you'll lose only 50 g of mhrb.

I screwed up a few times even when I was absolutely sure that everything is under control.

Do you think a higher ratio of vinegar to water would allow it to hold more actives?

No.

Im also looking into using lime rather than lye...although i have around 3-400g lye to use so may just use it this time then switch to lime

Does not really matter as long as your pH is right. You just have to be more careful with lye.

 

[Swarupa]

I've decided i want the extraction to be as organic & friendly as possible, im going with calcium hydroxide thats used in aquariums so very soluble, looking forward to it!

 

[Swarupa]

So this is basically going to be a vinegar/lime extraction now, pretty much exactly like Q21's tek... i couldnt use my previous tek with lime as explained here

I should add that it would be aquarium calcium hydroxide so solubility in water should be good

It doesn't matter where you source your calcium hydroxide from, if it is calcium hydroxide its solubility will be bad in water no matter the purpose it is sold for.

Calcium hydroxide is not only poorly soluble in water, it also creates loads of salts and/or other substances from the plant material that are insoluble in water as well when they bind calcium. You may be aware that some cider brewers treat the pressed apple juice with calcium chloride which forms insoluble complexes with pectins that float away and can be removed, thus assist in making a cider of better taste, complexity and clarity.

In an A/B or STB the undissolved calcium hydroxide will be a pain, often staying as a haze in the NP solvent. SWIM had such an experience. And even if you throw just enough calcium hydroxide in your, say A/B to bring the pH to 13 and also ensure that all the calcium hydroxide dissolves, the formation of calcium-bound compounds will be unavoidable and will give you similar problems.

Should have all the supplies i need by the end of the week, can't wait

The only thing im wondering is if plastic NON HDPE bowls will be okay seeing as im not using Lye?
They are microwave/boiling water safe bowls