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Virola Resin extraction? How

Migrated topic.
lorax

lorax

Rising Star
SWIM is interested in making a crude extract of virola resin. He wants to try and make some nosespray from it so that the alkaloids may be taken in more efficiently by the membranes. Could SWIM just mix Calcium Hydroxide with the Resin and add water to form a paste, let it dry and then pull on this mixture with xylene. SWIM would then add FASA to the xylene to try and crash out the alkaloids. Do you think this could work?

Or could SWIM just pull with acetone straight away and then just evaporate it to yield the crude extract? SWIM loves virola snuff, but finds that too much needs to be taken nasally to produce good results.

Any thoughts?

peace
 
This is the virola surinamensis that swim found - there are a few other trees around it that could be virola spp - their bark is blood red too.

once swim dreamed he did an extraction on it and evapped the naptha and was left with a plate of orange oil - this was before swim met and worked with mhrb - the oil on the plate smelled like plastic - as spice should.
Swim threw it out the day his mhrb arrived but now he knows that if he disolved it in naptha and freeze precipped it he would have had some spice.
the claims of up to 11% tryptamine content are very easily true as swim used about 2 table spoons of dry resin and got about 5% of that by weight of oil out in 5 naptha pulls on a stb ex.

Bleeding_Tree_by_Aegl3.jpg
 
That 5% oil had a lot of crap in it other than alkaloids because no defat was done. If it was 95% 5-MeO-DMT (as some sources state) then it would have crystallized and it surely didn’t. Without purifying the alkaloids or testing its activity you have no idea how much of that 5% oil was even anything active at all. It could have just been oils from the bark (and probably most of it was). SWIM did such an extraction last night and found most of it was inactive junk. Only about 1-2% of the resin contains alkaloids. That 11% claim is marketing bullshit, I believe, likely based on a single flawed study of the alkaloid content in snuff (which is prepared many different ways, some of which is a water concentrate of the resin).
 
well i dont know - i guess nobody is sure on it - there is only one way to find out - swim will wait for the right time then harvest more resin - weigh it - then do the ex and see - the results will obviously be posted here.
 
69ron said:
That 5% oil had a lot of crap in it other than alkaloids because no defat was done. If it was 95% 5-MeO-DMT (as some sources state) then it would have crystallized and it surely didn’t. Without purifying the alkaloids or testing its activity you have no idea how much of that 5% oil was even anything active at all. It could have just been oils from the bark (and probably most of it was). SWIM did such an extraction last night and found most of it was inactive junk. Only about 1-2% of the resin contains alkaloids. That 11% claim is marketing bullshit, I believe, likely based on a single flawed study of the alkaloid content in snuff (which is prepared many different ways, some of which is a water concentrate of the resin).
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Some compounds even with 1% impurities will not crystalize. I am not saying 5-MeO is like this, however it is possible.
Again the study is not flawed. It was measuring the content of a prepared snuff. They may have been from a water extraction. Please don't go saying the study was flawed i have read the study it was performed carefully by very competent people. Including Schultes, who started ethnobotany, so you better believe it was done correct. The only flaw is the vendors miss sited the claim. It seems that the plain resin contains between 1-2% alkaloids. But the are certainly species of virola that may have higher contents and even individual trees that have larger alk contents. So phlux you may very well have gotten a high Alk content, 69ron is only talking about commercially available material, which no one knows what it even really is or where it came from. It could all be from one crappy source. Please try the experiment again and report your findings.
 
I still believe that report is flawed. Until you or someone else can get hold of resin that contains 11% alkaloids, I don't believe it. SWIM never saw such resin, NEVER. I’ve seen enough erroneous “scientific” reports from so called “experts” to know when to smell a rat. No SWIM has ever come across 11% alkaloids in the resin and posted about it. SWIM has purchased resin from several sources. They never contain more than 1-2% alkaloids, NEVER. Look at all the reports on the net from various SWIMMERS and you'll see what I’m talking about.
 
69ron said:
I still believe that report is flawed. Until you or someone else can get hold of resin that contains 11% alkaloids, I don't believe it. SWIM never saw such resin, NEVER. I’ve seen enough erroneous “scientific” reports from so called “experts” to know when to smell a rat. No SWIM has ever come across 11% alkaloids in the resin and posted about it. SWIM has purchased resin from several sources. They never contain more than 1-2% alkaloids, NEVER. Look at all the reports on the net from various SWIMMERS and you'll see what I’m talking about.
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No one said that the resin contains 10% alkaloid. The study was saying that a prepared snuff had 11% alkaloids. Even you agree that this could be a result of how the snuff is prepared.
How are you analysising your extracts, GC/MS, HPLC, ? Extraction and then a scale? come on man your being ridiculous. Furthermore you don't no shit about where your resin came from. Unless you went to the amazon yourself and harvested it which you did not do. I don't care if you bought it from 100 diff vendors they may all be getting it from the same source. Furthermore you are prob just extracting it and weighing it. Some thorough analysis. Thus your extraction method could be flawed. You have obviously not read the study.
 
There are severeal studies: They are
Chagnon et al. 1970.
Arguell et al. 1969 Alkaloids in certain species of virola and other south american plants....
Same as above: Identification of two new B-alkaloids in south american hallucinogenic plants
In another thread I give more sources there is tons of research out on the subject. 69ron has just never looked as he claimed that there was none.
I am in a hurry check out the other thread on subject or I will give more later if you want. Trouts notes on ahuasca has tones of research on virola species as well. I am not claiming that resin has 10% 5-MeO but I am saying there is nothing wrong with these studies using gas chromatography.
 
While it might be possible that there's a freak of nature that contains 11% alkaloids that one guy came across and tested, it’s more likely he made a mistake in his tests.

There are several older reports of Anadenanthera colubrina containing DMT as their main alkaloid. We now know those reports to be in error. Many so called “experts” make mistakes. It’s easy to do. If you mislabeled your specimen accidentally (which happens more than people realize) and publish your reports based on a mislabeled specimen, then your findings are just plain wrong, and unless you realized your mistake, you’ll swear your findings are accurate.

There’s like 1 study showing such a high amount of alkaloids, and it was in the “snuff”. As far as I know it wasn’t specific about what preparation was used to make the snuff. There are many different methods used, and some are actually water extracts that are highly concentrated. If that kind of snuff was the snuff reported to contain 11% alkaloids then the finding makes sense to me. A water extract would be far more concentrated than the resin.

I don’t believe 11% in the resin is possible. In concentrated snuff yes, but not in the resin, especially when all the resin on the market contains only 1-2% alkaloids. If there was resin containing 11% alkaloids, believe me, they would be selling it! But it can’t be found.
 
bufoman said:
Some times you are ridiculous 69ron every study any one gives you that disagrees with your "theories" you say you don't believe it without every even looking at it. and then you will change your argument as we go along.
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You believe anything in print from any scientist don't you. You are the fool, not me. Lots of scientists make mistakes and print them.
 
Haha you guys are funny. Bufoman you must admit that scientists do make mistakes and publish them (although I dont think this is the case here). Ron69 you must also admit that there is nothing seemingly wrong with these studies. If they made a claim that the snuff not the resin contains 10% 5-meo-dmt so what? I doubt they were wrong on that, its a very simple thing to analyze an alkaloid by GC (well it depends on the alkaloid but these ones are well studied). Even if at one time a resin was found that contained 10% 5-meo so what? It may have been done over 20 years ago and the plant material they used much different from that supplied by vendors today (although that sounds like a lot the preparation method could have been different or somehow the resin was concentrated).

I think you guys are misunderstanding one another. Ron is simply saying he has never seen resin by crude extraction techniques that contains 10% 5-meo. Bufoman is claiming there is a study that analyzes snuff and it had 10% 5-meo. Are you guys even arguing about the same thing? Snuff and resin is different. Where is the study that claims RESIN contains 10% 5-meo-dmt?
 
69ron said:
bufoman said:
Some times you are ridiculous 69ron every study any one gives you that disagrees with your "theories" you say you don't believe it without every even looking at it. and then you will change your argument as we go along.
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You believe anything in print from any scientist don't you. You are the fool, not me. Lots of scientists make mistakes and print them.
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Of course scientists make mistakes all the time man. I know that I never said they didn't I read them before I agree with them. There is a lot I don't believe and have challenged several scientists in my field of research. Unlike you who just doesn't believe them if they counter your argument. 69ron You don't know shit about science. This is not the first time which you ignore good evidence if it opposes your unorthodox beliefs. Try reading them and tell me what's wrong with the methodology. Whats wrong with their gas chromatography technique or equipment? Its annoying anyone can argue like you by just saying nope I don't believe it. Why? I just don't. That is really mature man. And I said it was the snuff not the resin no one is saying resin please read the posts before you say anything.
 
burnt said:
Haha you guys are funny. Bufoman you must admit that scientists do make mistakes and publish them (although I dont think this is the case here). Ron69 you must also admit that there is nothing seemingly wrong with these studies. If they made a claim that the snuff not the resin contains 10% 5-meo-dmt so what? I doubt they were wrong on that, its a very simple thing to analyze an alkaloid by GC (well it depends on the alkaloid but these ones are well studied). Even if at one time a resin was found that contained 10% 5-meo so what? It may have been done over 20 years ago and the plant material they used much different from that supplied by vendors today (although that sounds like a lot the preparation method could have been different or somehow the resin was concentrated).
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Thank you burnt this is exactly what I was saying to the T. Maybe he will believe it from you. I kept saying it was the snuff. Yet he still says it was wrong. I am not sure if he didn't fully read the post or what but He always does this. It is frustrating. I think he has a lot to offer the community don't get me wrong. i like him, but damn is it frustrating.
 
We all sometimes half read things and make conclusions based on that or our personal experience. Anyway I hope its a bit clearer now.

Anyway the lesson we have to take away is that vendors claim the RESIN contains 10% 5-meo-dmt and the only study any of you guys can find claims the SNUFF had 10% 5-meo-dmt and thus the advertising is making a false claim.
 
It is very unlikely that any resin contains 10% alkaloids. Especially the stuff from the vendors, it all seems to be rather low. There may be higher alkaloid stuff out there (10% is very high but not unheard of for some alkaloids espcialy in sap). The majorities of snuffs analyzed contain 1-2% 5-MeO, thus most resin likely contains this or slightly more if plant additives decreased alk %. Only one contained 11% and the authors noted it was extremely high this resin was likely prepared using an extraction. The vendors are wrong for quoting this source however most are in it for the money what do you expect.
 
69ron said:
While it might be possible that there's a freak of nature that contains 11% alkaloids that one guy came across and tested, it’s more likely he made a mistake in his tests.

There are several older reports of Anadenanthera colubrina containing DMT as their main alkaloid. We now know those reports to be in error. Many so called “experts” make mistakes. It’s easy to do. If you mislabeled your specimen accidentally (which happens more than people realize) and publish your reports based on a mislabeled specimen, then your findings are just plain wrong, and unless you realized your mistake, you’ll swear your findings are accurate.

There’s like 1 study showing such a high amount of alkaloids, and it was in the “snuff”. As far as I know it wasn’t specific about what preparation was used to make the snuff. There are many different methods used, and some are actually water extracts that are highly concentrated. If that kind of snuff was the snuff reported to contain 11% alkaloids then the finding makes sense to me. A water extract would be far more concentrated than the resin.

I don’t believe 11% in the resin is possible. In concentrated snuff yes, but not in the resin, especially when all the resin on the market contains only 1-2% alkaloids. If there was resin containing 11% alkaloids, believe me, they would be selling it! But it can’t be found.
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I agree with you, that has been what I am saying, this doesn't mean that the study was wrong. It was in regards to a prepared snuff. Some samples of Anadenanthera colubrina def contain DMT. In the seeds it has been shown in small amounts but it has even been found in some samples of seed and in diff parts of the plant. Jon Otts extraction results in pure Bufo this is different as it was re-crystalized several times and the extraction method used. In analysis of the raw seeds sometimes only B was found but DMT has been found. B is likely to be responsible for the entire psyc effects but that doesn't mean no DMT was found. Of course it depends on which portion of the plant was analyzed, and the specific plant. There may certainly be studies that were wrong please specify which studies you are referring to so I can check them out? I hope you are not just making a claim you can't back up.
 
agree with burnt one is arguing about resin the other about snuff.

no need to provoke, bufo, saying ron doesnt know shit about science or that he is ridiculous. If you think there is something he makes a mistake then point it out, we all learn, he is open minded and im sure can take criticism.

but saying those things doesnt help, only 'creates noise in the system'
 
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