Virola Resin: Oral Usage

[Apoc]

Hi. Why do I read so little about the oral usage of Virola resin? Most discussion is about snuffing or sublingual. Has anyone tried eating virola with caapi or rue?

I read that if there is 5meo in Virola, the 5meo is in salt form. Is the salt form of 5meo cause a different experience than freebase, when taken orally? For that matter, is 5meo taken orally particularly different than n-n dmt oral vs smoke? Thanks.

 

[endlessness]

Dont you remember this thread you made yourself once:

Does Anyone Here Eat 5-MEO-DMT? - Bufotenine and 5-MeO-DMT - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

5-meo-dmt might not really be safe to consume orally, people have died after consuming 5-meo containing brews.

 

[Dorge]

How and why did it kill them?

 

[jamie]

people drink chaliponga all the time and dont die.

 

[Apoc]

Dont you remember this thread you made yourself once:

Does Anyone Here Eat 5-MEO-DMT? - Bufotenine and 5-MeO-DMT - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

5-meo-dmt is not really safe to consume orally, people have died because of it.

lol, I remember. I definitely won't be trying oral 5meo. Maybe I should just leave well enough alone. There are some people who say 5meo is horrible, especially orally, resulting in a great deal of physical discomfort. While others say that chaliponga is ok as an ayahuasca admixture (chaliponga is suspected to have small amounts of 5meo). It just made me wonder if there is some difference between taking 5meo in salt form compared to freebase. The dmt alks are always in salt form in the plants, and maybe that's why the alks in chaliponga are more tolerable. Still, I have heard people say that chaliponga feels more sickening than mimosa, so maybe not. Anyway, one message is clear, experimenting with oral 5meo, especially combined with harmalas, is probably not a good idea.

 

[Dorge]

Can we get some solid evidence of fatalities from oral 5meo? Links?

 

[endlessness]

people drink chaliponga all the time and dont die.

Please show me any source of chemical analysis where it is shown chaliponga has significant amounts of 5-meo-dmt.

I looked into it lot and so far I havent seen any trustable evidence for it (we had a discussion about this once, and with all the immaturity posted, seems nobody could come up with a reliable source for 5-meo in chali). Subjective effects (and ron's advertisements) seem to be the only sources for this claim out there. As well as some unreferenced claims on the internet and some "trace amount" comments on some publications.


Dorge, the reference for one of the deaths is:

Sklerov, J., Levine, B., Moore, K.A., King, T. & Fowler, D. (2005). A fatal intoxication following the ingestion of 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine in an ayahuasca preparation. Journal of Analytical Toxicology. 29 (8 ), 838-841.

Im also attaching:

Callaway, J.C., Grob, C.S., McKenna, D.J., Nichols, D.E., Shulgin, A. & Tupper, K.W. (2006). A demand for clarity regarding a case report on the ingestion of 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine (5-MeO-DMT) in an ayahuasca preparation. Journal of Analytical Toxicology. 30(6), 406-7.

They are demanding clarity regarding this case, because the amount of 5-meo-dmt found in the person's blood seems disproportionately high, so it probably was extracted/synthed and put in the brew, not added in plant form to the ayahuasca brew. By the way they claim in the article that chaliponga only has trace amounts of 5-meo-dmt so again frac, there seems no evidence to chali having anything significant of 5-meo. Note that in the article demanding clarity they do not want to imply that 5-meo is safe to consume orally in plant form or something like this, what they want is that people dont misunderstand and consider normal ayahuasca dangerous because this 5-meo addition is not something common.

In the fatal intoxication article in the discussion part they also say a few other cases of tryptamine intoxication, including one with health complications (but no death) related to snorting 5-meo after consuming rue seeds.

Please be careful people! I dont know the exact % of 5-meo-dmt in virola resin, and what would be the dangerous dosage, and if there is indeed a big metabolic difference between people that makes this all very hard to generalize. Given the uncertainty, I definitely recommend big caution there, if possible just completely avoiding oral 5-meo-dmt with harmalas.

 

[Infundibulum]

Yes, the chaliponga and 5-meo dmt has not been settled yet. There are quite some reports from people that have tried both chaliponga and pure 5-meo and say there're distinct similarities. But in terms of chemical analysis, no 5-meo has been found in chaliponga.

69ron was claiming that he had successfully not only extracted 5-meo but also separated it from dmt, which is basically a lie.

 

[soulfood]

69ron was claiming that he had successfully not only extracted 5-meo but also separated it from dmt, which is basically a lie.

I remember him going back on his seperation tek saying the first time he did it, it worked, but he could not repeat it.

The only thing I hear people saying about chaliponga containing 5meo DMT is that chali can be used as a quid to produce effect, which would not be the case if it only contained DMT. I haven't tried this myself, so I can't verify anything.

Has anyone even verified that Virola T contains 5meo? All Virola T resin I have sampled over the years has contained absolutley nothing psychoactive, even after a number of different preparations.

 

[endlessness]

Pharmepena publication by Ott cites several analysis of epena (Virola) snuff containing 5-meo-dmt.

Quantitative data on seven Virola snuffs revealed 0.15% to 11.0% total tryptamines (average:3.63%) with 5-MeO-DMT only in five samples, and two also having DMT (11:88 and 20:72 in relation to 5-MeO-DMT); the 11.0% sample contained 9.7% 5-MeO-DMT and 1.2% DMT (Mckenna, Towers & Abbott 1984; Galeffi, Messana & Marini-Bettolo 1983; Grossa et al. 1975; DeBudowski et al. 1974; Chagnon, Le Quesne & Cook 1971; Agurell et al. 1969; Holmstedt & Lindgren 1967; Holmstedt 1965)

Now if any of the typical virola resin sold in the ethnobotanical market has 5-meo-dmt, thats another story... Would be nice to have one of our experts analyse some samples sold around


As for quid activity of diplopterys cabrerana, could it be from trace amounts of b-carboline helping activating dmt (though so far I havent found sources for b-carboline in cabrerana)? And didnt amor fati's research with mucosahuasca show that dmt can be absorbed through the mucous membranes? Or what about small bufotenine traces in cabrerana (which at least I can find a source for), maybe this is what is creating different effects? Ott claims in his pharmañopo article that bufotenine is active sublingually.

 

[Infundibulum]

69ron was claiming that he had successfully not only extracted 5-meo but also separated it from dmt, which is basically a lie.

I remember him going back on his seperation tek saying the first time he did it, it worked, but he could not repeat it.

No, I refer to the other one where he was claiming to have separated them by boiling off the dmt to leave behind the 5-meo.

 

[jamie]

It's not bufotenine.

Johnothan ott used to sell pharmahuasca capsules containing 5meoDMT and harmine. He said he preferred it that way. I know of no deaths at all from the combination he was selling to people.

 

[rOm]

There is always some discussion about 5meo dmt oral with harmalas. As far as I can tell it feel more tuff on the come up than n,n dmt. I would stay careful with the oral combo though.

 

[Dorge]

It's not bufotenine.

Hohnothan ott used to sell pharmahuasca capsules containing 5meoDMT and harmine. He said he preferred it that way. I know of no deaths at all from the combination he was selling to people.

That's right he did.

I believe that this toxicology report is questionable. What are the bodies 5meodmt and dmt levels at death any way? They are endogenous chemicals. They have been found in the urine of schizophrenics and regular folks. What are the levels in some one that has taken just normal ayahuasca? Did they do these comparisons?

 

[endlessness]

Picatris raised the very interesting possibility in the thread I linked earlier that there might be very big metabolic differences related to 5-meo-dmt, so even though some people may not be at great risks, others might?

And no Dorge the analysed level of 5-meo-dmt in that case greatly surpasses the trace amounts found in human bodies, you can just check the numbers of publications to compare.. The person in that case (or whoever dosed him) clearly added 5-meo-dmt to the brew. Also as I said you can read in the same paper about snorting 5-meo-dmt + harmalas and complications.

Again, notice im not saying that if you take 5-meo and harmalas you'll die, its obviously not that simple, but I think the fact that there are clearly documented cases of deaths/complications shows that maybe we should at least exercise some more caution, and if this is mentioned in the forums that it comes with warnings/disclaimers, and keep on researching about it, no?

BTW frac, why do you say its not bufotenine (or bufo+dmt+other trace alkaloids+suggestion?) that are creating the quid effects of chaliponga? how can you know that unless you analysed your sample? Even if you have tried to vaporize bufo before to know its effects, you still dont know the content of that chali and different forms of ingestion+trace alkaloids+beliefs can greatly change an experience. Im not saying it absolutely isnt 5-meo-dmt, I just dont know, but I would definitely not jump in the wagon that says its for sure 5-meo-dmt and then claims subjective experiences as proof.

 

[Dorge]

Did he clearly add it to the brew? Do they know this for a fact?

 

[Dorge]

Also what is the bodies levels of 5meodmt after drinking ayahuasca with out 5meo added?

 

[endlessness]

Did he clearly add it to the brew? Do they know this for a fact?

Did you check 'clarification' article I posted above? All these scientists such as callaway mckenna etc said that by looking at the numbers its clear it cant have been from standard ayahuasca brew, even if it was chaliponga, it must have been pure 5-meo added. At least thats what the numbers seem to point to, but I dont think there was any answer to their questions.

Regarding 5-meo-dmt levels after drinking ayahuasca, I dont know, I guess the same trace levels as when people dont take ayahuasca ?

 

[Dorge]

my point is we don't know that. We cannot assume that, we require evidence. We can see that levels where high but with out evidence to support why the levels where high we cannot jump to the conclusion that they where high because it was artificially added to the brew. It might be the best hypothesis people have but it's still a hypothesis, and does not prove anything.
There are VERY few tryptamine related deaths ever reported. The article also states that the actual cause of death is unknown. They actually do not know what caused the death of this man.
The cause of death is unknown, meaning they do not know if the cause of death was the addition of 5meodmt. They do not know what actually killed this guy. I've read the article and I have read the letter responses In no place are they stating any evidence that 5meodmt killed this guy. Just that he died and had large amounts of 5meodmt in his system.

 

[endlessness]

Yes you are right, I agree with what you said. I certainly dont want to come across as unnecessarily alarmist, but I hope people exhert caution there until we know more about 5-meo-dmt pharmacology. If someone decides to take it anyways, please start with very low doses and raise gradually over different sessions to make sure you arent one of the potential bad/slow metabolizers of it or with some special sensitivity for some reason.