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Virola theiodora resin taken orally without MAOI

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The bark that they analyze in the paper has not had the resin removed yet, and thus is not worthless. I agree that the resin should be analysed. I am not sure if it has or not i have not looked into it. That is very interesting about how they prepare the snuff I was not aware of that. Which tribe uses that method? Do you have anymore info on this? That is very fascinating. I think the vendors say that 10% thing from that study of the snuff, I don't believe that they offer this product, and as you said it seems some tribes don't use the raw resin in the snuff prep, although I believe that some tribes do. It is highly likely that some specific plants have higher levels of 5-MeO in the resin than others. I don't know about 10% but you never know. Some anaden seeds do. (bufotneine that is).
 
I'm sorry, I don't recall the name of the tribe that performs the water extraction. There are many different tribes with various methods of preparing epena. I saw a video of the water preparation once, and also one of the books I have on the subject also talks about that technique. I don't recall which one (I have dozens of books on the subject). Some use the bark, some use actual liquid sap, some use dry resin, there's a bunch of methods documented.

Look here, it talks about a similar method used: http://leda.lycaeum.org/?ID=16018

What’s available to the natives and what’s available to the rest of the world may not be identical.

What I'm interested in is not what the natives have, but rather what’s available to us on the internet marketplace. What does that resin have? What does that bark have? Very few westerners will ever get stuff directly from the natives, but instead they’ll get what’s being sold on the internet. Most of the reports of the material being sold on the internet from various SWIMs seem to indicate an almost complete lack of alkaloids in the bark. Some SWIMs have had good results with the resin being sold, but most have not. Many reports exist showing the resin to produce no effects at all.

I’d like to see some tests done on what we have access too. If resin in the jungle contains 10% 5-MeO-DMT, then why doesn’t the resin we have access to contain 10% 5-MeO-DMT? All of the SWIMs that have reported use of the resin indicate that none of the resin available on the internet contains anything near 10% 5-MeO-DMT.

SWIMs own tests have not found resin to contain anything near 10% 5-MeO-DMT. So what’s up with that? I wonder was that just a mistake in the lab tests? Maybe that 10% figure was actually 1% and a decimal was moved mistakenly? Those kinds of mistakes happen all the time. One test by one person is just not enough to go by.

Now if we had 10 tests performed by 10 different groups all showing a 5-MeO-DMT concentration on about 10% in 10 different samples of pure resin, then of course there’s no arguing about it, it’s a fact. But one report of 10% and a vast amount of SWIMs indicating 10% is completely wrong, well then you have a problem with that test's credibility in my eyes.
 
I’d like to see some tests done on what we have access too. If resin in the jungle contains 10% 5-MeO-DMT, then why doesn’t the resin we have access to contain 10% 5-MeO-DMT? All of the SWIMs that have reported use of the resin indicate that none of the resin available on the internet contains anything near 10% 5-MeO-DMT.
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Odds are the distributors just find the report that sais the resin is the strongest and claim that resin can contain that high amount for marketing purposes. You can never tell the honestly of internet vendors or even their sources. This is a well known issue with all botanical products. They can also be adulterated with other plants.

The only way to really know is to extract them and test them (obviously).

SWIMs own tests have not found resin to contain anything near 10% 5-MeO-DMT. So what’s up with that? I wonder was that just a mistake in the lab tests? Maybe that 10% figure was actually 1% and a decimal was moved mistakenly? Those kinds of mistakes happen all the time. One test by one person is just not enough to go by.
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The batch used in that study could very well have contained 10% but all the batches SWIY and others have seen simply don't. But yes some follow up studies would be helpful.

A chemotaxinomic screen of these plants available on the internet would be interesting. The problem is the only people interested are those who use the plants. Forensic labs won't bother they have bigger fish to fry. Pharmacognosy is a dieing department in many universities. SWIMs imaginary friend has access to such equipment and know how to analyze these plants but lacks funding and time, maybe one day when the developed world cares about plant medicine again. :?:
 
A mistake in the lab is very unlikely. These were highly trained professionals and that is a large difference. It is not uncommon at all for samples to be this variable. Furthermore it was snuff that was tested and as you said it could have been from a water extraction. The resin its self seems to only contain 1-2% as the one source I sited found in snuff prepared form it 9I believe not in front of me). Regarding the stuff on the internet we have no idea where its from and what plant it is actually from. You have to take the word of the vendor. Even assuming it is what they say it is it is not uncommon for different plants of the same species have very different chemical phenotypes. There don't seem to be too many sources online therefore they may all be getting it from the same place explaining the poor quality. Many natives prefer yopo to epena because they claim you have to snort so much of the epena to get an effect but again it depends on the tribe. The ones with the 10% snuff are likely not complaining. Also different environmental conditions favor different alk contents. Only further testing with definite identified materials will clear up this confusion. I would doubt however that we will find a commercially available source of the resin with 10% 5-MeO. This was likely from a water extraction but it is not impossible. Some Andan seeds were found to be close to 10%. However many of the commercially available ones have not been found to have this heavy of an alk content. A lot of factors come into play.
 
SWIM has now ordered virola theidora resin from every online vendor that sells it to determine which is the best. He has ordered 10g quantities of each vendor so that if he finds a good source he will have enough of it to do some tests. The virola resin he has at the moment is very good. 2 pinches for each nostril of the snuff produces quite nice effects. It feels like a combination of a medium dose of MDMA vs. a small dose of LSD. Everything seems a bit more real. Everything feels soft and warm. Nice body high!

SWIMs preperation was 0.7g virola resin mixed with 0.3g finely powdered snail shells. It was crunched up together in a mortar and pestle until it had merged completely. What SWIM didn't know at the time when he made the snuff was that there are absolutely no snail shells involved in making virola snuff. Snail shells are used to make Cebil and Yopo snuff.

Yopo or Cebil snuff is made by roasting the seeds, removing the brown seed shells, crushing up the seeds to a fine powder, adding 25% snail shells or tobacco ashes and mixing in a little water to form a paste. This is dried completely and then crushed to the finest powder possible. Then it is ready to be taken.

The only thing which SWIM finds strange is that the resin is not supposed to be a powder but a hard substance like tree sap. It is supposed to bubble when heated from beneath. Could it be that the resin sold in shops is already heated and sifted?

What SWIM could see from the video is that the Yanomami heat the bark from the outside to let the resin leak out and then collect it in a bowl where it hardens. Then they crunch it up and mix it with Piri Piri (Justicia) leaves. The justicia doesn't contain anything else but cumarine which doesn't have any effect other than that it smells nice and makes the snuff easier to snort. SWIM has a Piri Piri plant growing and has collected many leaves from it. He will make a new batch of snuff to use tomorrow evening using Piri Piri instead of snail shells.

SWIM will report back when he knows which vendor has the best and also how the snuff made from piripiri and virola works on SWIM.

Has anybody ever seen whole bark pieces for sale? SWIM wants to buy fresh bark pieces and heat them himself to retrieve the resin. This would be really cool as one would know that it is fresh. Does anybody know of a source that sells virola theidora seeds? SWIM would be interested in growing his own virola tree. That way he would at least in some point in his life have the opportunity to do the whole process himself and have very fresh resin.
 
SWIM has tried bark from virtually every vendor there is. All of it was extremely low in alkaloid content (less that 0.05%). Only the resin being sold is worth the money (1-2% alkaloids according to SWIM’s tests).
 
Of course. The Resin is the alkaloid containing source in the bark. Only a very small amount of dried resin comes from the bark. So even if the resin has not been removed from the bark before it is sold one would expect a very low yield as you said. Has SWIM found consistently 1-2% 5-MeO in the resin? How is the extraction process?
 
Yeah.. SWIM tried taking it orally once. It was VERY mild! he took something like 300mg of it under he tongue. Very mild euphoria was produced. He likes snorting it better. It works better for SWIM that way.
 
SWIM has some resin coming in the mail. Can the resin be snorted as snuff just the way that it is or does it need to be altered in any way first?
 
SoCal said:
SWIM has some resin coming in the mail. Can the resin be snorted as snuff just the way that it is or does it need to be altered in any way first?
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To snort it, it needs to be finely ground to a dust consistency. It works as is, as long as you grind it finely. It works better if a little calcium carbonate or calcium hydroxide is mixed with it. Either way it's psychedelic. If no calcium carbonate or calcium hydroxide is added, the onset is slower, it's more euphoric, more pleasant, but not as psychedelic. SWIM likes it more without the calcium.

SWIM uses it orally or sublingually. It's active either way without an MAOI, but about 3 times stronger with one.

Orally without an MAOI, you'll need about 1000-1500 mg for decent effects. 500 mg is noticeable orally without an MAOI. It's quite pleasant, but not really psychedelic at 500 mg. If taken with an MAOI, 500 mg can be quite psychedelic orally. When snorted or taken sublingually, the dose is much smaller, with about 200-350 mg usually being enough to notice mild psychedelic effects.

The doses given above are not powerful doses. Those are experiences that are very easily manageable. Everyone is different though so what works for SWIM might not work for everyone else. SWIM tends to be sensitive to psychedelics and usually requires less than other people do.

The experience from oral, sublingual, or nasal is pretty much the same. It's very euphoric, pleasant, sort of LSD-like and in some ways sort of like mescaline.

High doses are really freaky though. I would not recommend taking a high dose for the first try. 5-MeO-DMT is quite different from DMT and tends to be really bazaar at high doses. But SWIM still enjoys it immensely.
 
If you plan to use Virola Resin sublingually or as snuff, use a mortar and pestle to grind the sandy resin pieces to a very fine powder. It's much more effective that way. If you don't, the potency drops a whole lot because the resin doesn't dissolve. Grinding to a fine powder is key. SWIM didn't know this until fairly recently when he tried it sublingually after grinding it to a fine powder. The increase in potency was 3-5 times compared non ground resin. But when taken orally, it doesn't really matter.
 
to take it orally do you just mix it with water or a citrus drink and swallow it down? how long are the effects with a an MAOI versus without?
 
You can just put it in a capsule and take it with a glass of water. The 5-MeO-DMT is present as a water soluble salt, so you could put the resin in some hot tea or something similar. The tea method works better if the resin is ground to a fine powder. It makes very little difference if you make a tea from it though. It will come on a little faster, that’s all.

Orally an MAOI will make it about 2 times stronger and it will last about 4-6 hours instead of 2-3 hours. Some people apparently find the combination unpleasant getting high blood pressure and other disturbing bodily effects. SWIM has not experienced that at all. SWIM used only THH with it orally, so maybe that’s the difference.

It’s better to use it sublingually. 200 mg is really nice with 15 mg of THH taken at the same time sublingually. It’s super euphoric and lasts 4-6 hours instead of 60 minutes without the THH.
 
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