We Don't Need Jobs

[SnozzleBerry]

Hey man, if you're dead serious about coming up with a real solution, and courses of action, which we will together act on, then I'm down to really put effort into pondering such things, but until then like I said I don't really feel like bothering, because in the end it would be pointless. No change would come. I have been pondering these things for a while now as well, not for three years or anything, but definitely a year and a half. I'm not writing it off as "we'll cross the bridge when we get there". I just don't feel like taking on the task, here right now, if nothing solid will come of it, which in all likelihood will be the outcome.. Yes I probably should have refrained from making the topic if I was unwilling to do so, and for that, my bad.. I just got a little excited when I saw something like this in the mainstream. The excitement wore off though when I came back to the realization of how hard it would be to much such a life a reality.

Actions require thought in order to be successful...the Black Panthers successfully organized food and clothing drives that were labelled as "dangerous" and "radical" activities because they were providing services to disenfranchised people...there were literally years of thought and organization that went into this. If you are unwilling to think this all through (though it may "waste" your time to do so) I would seriously doubt your willingness to actually work towards this in reality. Yes, it's hard work...most things worth doing are. This isn't some whimsical undertaking in which "the excitement wears off"...this is a struggle for the continued survival of humankind in a socio-political environment where we can all be "free."

To quote the Blue Scholars, "That's why we call it a struggle, you're supposed to sweat"

If you're not willing to take on a topic that will require thought and consideration right here and now...then when? When will it be compelling enough for you to do so?

As to my taking action, I'm currently working mostly in the theoretical realm, piecing together a plan for what a post-modern society would look like and how it would function. The reason I put out the question relating to technology is because I'm currently stuck on that issue when dealing with the creation of sustainable and directly democratic communities. There's no sense in starting or engaging in revolution if you don't know what the end goal is. I'm building an end goal towards which revolution makes sense...I'm sorry if that strikes you as pointles...personally, I see no better way to approach this.

I can imagine things like portable water are disappearing from third world countries, but do you really think that means we are running out of water? We could easily supply the world with water. Water shortage is a hoax, IMO. Also, do you really think those things couldn't be provided for if the world didn't just put their heads together? I mean really, c'mon, not that they're going to but that's all it would take IMO. Believe what you want, but it could be done. As for mechanisms of action, like I said if you really want to ponder such things together, and then actually take action, then I'm totally down man.
But if you're asking me to speculate about such things and not take action, then I'm sorry, I don't really feel like doing so, and I'm sorry for making the topic.

Potable water, not portable water...this means water you can drink. Look man, if you think water shortage and climate change are hoaxes (in the face of global concurrence amongst the scientific community), there's no point in discussing this as you are, imo, an irrational/illogical person. You really think the entire scientific community is making this up? Have you read any papers on either issue? Have you studied the water-shortage that is currently striking the middle east?


Statements like this are entirely devoid of any content. As you say, it's not going to happen. But, even if we ignore that, you are entirely ignoring the fact that none of the people who could "put their heads together" are employing sustainable practices now, nor do they have any incentive to do so in the future. You can't get around how technology is created, no matter how much you try to say "it can [magically] happen".

I'm not asking you to speculate and not take action...I'm asking you to theorize and then take action...this is the only way popular movements have ever changed anything. First comes thought, then comes action - we see this with every successful popular movement, be it the civil rights movement, the feminist movement, the LGBT movement or any other successful movement...hell, we even see it with the tea party, although it's being employed there to entirely different ends.

Unfortunately, there are obviously people who are down to take action, but at this point in the game I think our numbers would be too small, and resistance would be futile, as well as draw attention to ourselves making us targets for all kinds of awfulness. If you can find a way of resistance that is without danger, then let me know.. I'll join now even with our small numbers.

As the saying goes: Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.

This is just self contradictory...honestly, your opinions frustrate me to the point where I can't even address the numerous "points" you make...Resistance requires sacrifice...if you are unwilling to risk your life to change the socio-economic conditions we are surrounded by, then you deserve whatever happens to you as a result of this system. If you won't self-educate in a a pragmatic way or take the time to think on this stuff, how can you possibly expect anyone to believe you'll take action, just as soon as someone else takes care of getting the ball rolling?

I'm also not so sure that this is going to have to be dealt with immediately or in our near future. I mean I wish that were true, hellyea, I'd love for shit to hit the fan one day. That would mean things actually have a chance to change, things would actually be exciting.. But no, to me it seems like we could be stuck here for quite a long time. Things have never really changed in hundreds of years, they just look different.

What exactly do you think is going to happen that will make it so there is no opportunity to figure this out? Because I personally have a little more faith than that, and I don't really fall for all the climate hype. Our earth is fine, and always will be, IMO.

My opinions/views are not predicated on faith...whether I have "a little more" or a lot less faith does not change the "objective" events that are taking place around the globe. From critical analysis of these events, I synthesize my views and opinions.

Look at the environment...look at the global economy...look at the level of war/hunger/poverty that is increasing exponentially across the globe. If you think everything is hunky-dory and nothing has changed over the the mere lifespan of America's existence...there's nothing to say.


I'm sorry, I know I've poorly addressed the statements you've made...they just strike me as lazy and ill-conceived...you are excited for change until you realize it's difficult...you'll do what someone else lays out but you wont forge a plan yourself...you want change without sacrifice...you ignore scientific understandings of the world we're surrounded by...I just can't engage on this...it's too much for me to even begin to comprehend where you're coming from.

 

[matukuul]

Whoa dude. I'm not unwilling to think all this through, nor am I unwilling to actually work towards it in reality. All I said was that I did not wish to think it through hypothetically on a message board at this moment if you don't plan to take action on it, for the reasons I stated. I said "if you're asking me to speculate about such things and not take action, then I'm sorry, I don't really feel like doing so, and I'm sorry for making the topic." I had no idea that as you mentioned you were actually already taking action. I think what you're doing sounds wonderful. Personally, I don't think I'm really in the position to undertake such a task because I don't think I'm really equipped mentally or physically to do so.. At least not yet. Should someone else or some group of individuals complete such a plan and needs help implementing it in which I can help, I would gladly do so. You really need to lighten up, and stop being so condescending to others just because they think differently than you. We're all on the same side here.

I'm also taking my own action which you so rudely assumed I was not doing. It's different from your action, but it is action indeed. I do my best to change and influence the people around me as I'm sure most of us do. I have my own clothing company, which I'm using to try to spread messages that will inspire my generation to think and consider, and be inspired to create change. It's what I feel I would be best off doing with my life and the best I can do with the means I have.

No I haven't read any scientific papers on climate issues, or water shortages, if you would like to point me in the direction of some, I would gladly look them over and tell you what I think of them. But as far as I'm concerned whens the last time the US ran out of bottled water? You think it's really that hard to give bottled water to poor countries? Like seriously? If people really wanted to? As for the climate issues, from what I've heard many scientists are funded so that they are inclined to say certain things that may not be true, and the rest that aren't lying disagree quite a bit among themselves about what is the actual truth, but thanks for calling me illogical and irrational, you're right, I must just be a crazy person.

I really don't think the way we are living is that unsustainable, it just needs some minor adjustments, which could be made if one magical day enough of us made the conscious choice to put our heads together. You're really gonna need to be more specific about which technology you think we won't be able to sustain on that level.

I only mentioned the danger thing because once the government locks you up for life over what ever it is that you might come up with, you're never gonna have the chance to have made a damn change in the world and you will have only wasted your time, short from inspiring others, but I just think there are more efficient ways to go about it. If you're willing to be such a asshole to someone over a little online discussion, then I can only imagine how that reflects into other aspects of your life, and you deserve whatever happens to you as a result of your ignorance, and yes I mean karma. What makes you think I have not pondered these issues in a pragmatic way, or took the time to think on this stuff? I already told you I have been thinking about it for a year and a half, so I don't think it's too hard to believe that I would take action just as soon as someone else took care of getting the ball rolling.

Miracles are objective events which I take into the account for the synthesis of my views and opinions, and I didn't mean that literally nothing has changed. I only meant that I don't think anything significant is gonna happen that will be some point of no return and then were all stuck in some sort of hell for eternity. If a significant and rapid change occurs, it will most likely be good, based on my own synthesis. Otherwise I think any other changes, good or bad, will be gradual, and at no time will it ever be too late.. I think the only thing that has really changed in the lifespan of America is that we now have the resources and technology to provide everyone with all of the things that I'm talking about. Tyranny, corruption, genocide, exploitation, and slavery have always been here. It just looks different, but eventually that will all be gone.. When enough people have awoken to what is so plain to see for those that do not let the world tell them that their eyes are lying.

And you've done more than poorly address my statements, you've insulted them, and made baseless assumptions about who I am as a person.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Again man, potable NOT portable water.

Potable water is water you can drink.

Portable water is water you carry around.

There is a shortage of potable (no "r" ) water in the middle east.

I will respond to the rest of your post when I get a moment to read it in full...hopefully I'll have a moment to link you to some scientific studies on this and climate change.

 

[matukuul]

Did I say portable this time? I said bottled. Bottled water is water you can drink. Since the middle east and the US are on the same planet, I'm pretty sure if the world decided it wanted to, it could get some bottled water from one side of it to the other.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Apologies if I misunderstood where you were going with respect to the water.

Look, you declared climate change and water shortage a hoax without ever reading anything on the topic.

To me, that's illogical and irrational.

 

[matukuul]

Apologies if I misunderstood where you were going with respect to the water.

Look, you declared climate change and water shortage a hoax without ever reading anything on the topic.

To me, that's illogical and irrational.

Oh really? I don't think it is given the reasoning I just gave, but like I said if you show me some things that you think are credible, I will look over them and tell you what I think. I'm open.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

The Scientific Consensus on Climate Change - Here's a good climate change article to start with:

928 papers were divided into six categories: explicit endorsement of the consensus position, evaluation of impacts, mitigation proposals, methods, paleoclimate analysis, and rejection of the consensus position. Of all the papers, 75% fell into the first three categories, either explicitly or implicitly accepting the consensus view; 25% dealt with methods or paleoclimate, taking no position on current anthropogenic climate change. Remarkably, none of the papers disagreed with the consensus position.

Here's a paper published by UNESCO on water shortage…it's two years old, but, as the UN is biased in favor of downplaying such occurences, the fact that it's mentioned in such detail should give you an idea of how bad things are. I mean, even their layout of this paper reeks of cheesy corporate goodness...if they're admitting it, what more evidence do you need? If you'd like more material or are unsatisfied with the sources presented, just let me know

 

[bill]

Did I say portable this time? I said bottled. Bottled water is water you can drink. Since the middle east and the US are on the same planet, I'm pretty sure if the world decided it wanted to, it could get some bottled water from one side of it to the other.

I don't think you realize how inefficient this would be.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

I really don't think the way we are living is that unsustainable, it just needs some minor adjustments, which could be made if one magical day enough of us made the conscious choice to put our heads together. You're really gonna need to be more specific about which technology you think we won't be able to sustain on that level.

Let's see...computers, phones, certain alloys, gps, tivos, mp3 players and other similar technologies, petroleum products, and many more...essentially anything that requires the operation of mines in "third-world" nations or assembly in "third-world" factories (what would the price of an ipod be if it were "made in america" ). None of these mining or production activities (or the policies that allow these activities) are sustainable. This means that things like MRI machines, x-ray machines, CT scans, PET scans and all the electronics that go hand-in-hand with the large pieces of machinery will need to go, in addition to just about every piece of military technology that exists. If you take the time to think about how much of our "stuff" comes from petroleum products and the impact that that has on the world we live in (to say nothing of the future world)...I think it becomes pretty apparent that the vast majority of our technology is unsustainable over the "long run."

That's why I posed the question I did earlier...I think things like the internet, radio and tv provide an incredible communication network. However, these things take a toll on global society, both in their production and their being discarded (google "digital dumping ground" for more on that). That's why I raised the question of whether you choose to produce new stuff or cannibalize old stuff...at what point do both routes become untenable? You have to understand...when I hear you say that you don't believe in climate change (or that you've bought into the argument that the scientists are incentivized to lie) and follow that with "I don't think the way we are living is that unsustainable"...I have a hard time taking your position seriously.

As to your solution of sending in tons of bottled water...what about the environmental impact of all that production and waste? What about crops that need water? What about the 3 liters of water and however much petroleum that go into producing each liter bottle of water (that's a net loss of two liters of water alone per bottle produced...in the proposition you're making, you're talking about a net loss of billions of liters of water to carry this out)? This is a systemic problem that needs to be addressed through the manner in which global resources are managed, imo...this requires much more than just reforming the system that exists.

 

[jamie]

if you think bottled water is the answer do more research. Do you understand how a water table works?..and how displacements of large ammounts of water from one area to be bottled for another effects the ecosystem? People should live where there is local wild water..end of story.

personally I believe that basically humanity in general has become nutritionally deficient due to a loss of our ancestrial diets that evolved such complicated brains and therefore we have a level of "brain damage" becasue we no longer consume enough of what we need to run such a complicated system..we are not thinking clearly and have not been for a long time, and look at what we have created. This theory is well supported as well.

 

[Sublime]

I agree a lot of things regarding society, civilization, and economy have been built on unstable foundations, even built knowing they will collapse at some point. We need to focus on the future, completely get rid of the entire system and rebuild it with a new hope and understanding of where we can guide the human race and find value in life without all the superficial aspects that everyone clings to.

 

[tobecomeone00]

You guys love details...it's being talked about in mainstream media, good enough for me...let's ride it out, see what happens...

 

[christian]

You guys love details...it's being talked about in mainstream media, good enough for me...let's ride it out, see what happens...

--Bring back the dinasoars, i'm already looking for a cave!!

 

[a1pha]

You guys love details...

God is in the detail

 

[MetaXIII]

You guys love details...

God is in the detail

I thought it was the Devil is in the details

 

[matukuul]

I think we're all right.

 

[Xt]

I'm baffled by the water shortage, especially as hot places have... sun. Using a basic mirror/flask/air condenser one could distill water right? A basic unit could be mass produced out of some kind of tough glass / reflective surface and distributed to these places. Large scale units could sit on the coast lines and be operating continuously during daylight hours. Obviously water needs be transported inland... but we have a free source at least.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

I think we're all right.

So...any thoughts on climate change?

Any thoughts on the water shortage?


And, in the words of the late William Feather:

Beware of the person who can't be bothered by details.

 

[jamie]

I'm baffled by the water shortage, especially as hot places have... sun. Using a basic mirror/flask/air condenser one could distill water right? A basic unit could be mass produced out of some kind of tough glass / reflective surface and distributed to these places. Large scale units could sit on the coast lines and be operating continuously during daylight hours. Obviously water needs be transported inland... but we have a free source at least.

What is the point though really? Why live somewhere that is not hospitable to life? People are going to need to get over ancestrial ties to land I think and move to places on the earth that can sustain life in the future..that is how I see things going anyway..of course there are other political problems that would stand in the way of that happening that need to be dealt with first..how mush sense does it make to live in a desert? I am not saying we have to eat 100% local etc, I dont..but it is good to think about these things and eat local food and drink local water etc as much as you can..

Everyone has to work some..but it is far far less than people are forced to work in western society..agriculture ruined everything in a way...and until we got over agriculture and get into community wide-government sponsored perma culture--basically food forests we will all be stuck in this situation to one degree or the other..and that is only one aspect of it, but it is a good example becasue it was the beginning of the "work force" as we have it today. Why have one person working a mono-culture project? Why not just get rid of grass lawns and cut down on the ammount of open field parks and empty lots etc and just plant perma culture food gardens everywhere? It makes ALOT more sense..what it does not do is put all the power into the hands of large corperations and people like monsanto, establishing a position of ruling over everyone else.

That would at least be a start..then start to work on the whole energy deal..becasue god knows there is a whole lot of altnernatives there in how things could be done.

 

[polytrip]

I didn't mean that people are never supposed to be mad.

The current anger of europeans is childish though. It's the anger of a junkie who ran out of heroin, a spoiled child who didn't get that very expensive toy he wanted.

Tell and indian, an egyptian or kenian that the world aint fair because the government no longer gives away loads of free money when you're 50 and still have dozens of healthy years ahead of you....
I don't know if they'll understand, but at least you've made them laugh.

-I disagree. Us Europeans have battled ourserlves into strong positions many years ago. A system was constructed, and we worked very hard in that system. Because of bad governments we have lost our control that we once had. We have reason to be angry, because our Governments tell us that we MUST do as they say, or else. Yet they are not living up to their promised words. We have worked hard and still do, we deserve better.

-I can't speak about Egyptians or Africans, but when i was in the Gambia it didn't look anything like manic workaholic europe to me.....so i guess they prefer to work easy all their lives than us fitting it in shorter years for a early pension as part of our system of retirement?....

We have voted for those bad governments ourselves. We have indeed made some achievements in the past. Those achievements have made us lazy, have brought us luxury's that are unsustainable.

With pensions and such it's very simple: when they where invented, life expectancy in western europe was 65/70. A child can figure out that if the design of a system is based on a certain ratio between working and not-working people, where basically working people pay for the people that don't work, and that ratio changes dramatically..that that fact alone could undermine the financial sustainability of the entire system.

Having to work a few years longer is a minor drawback considering the extra years of living in good health you get.
That people can't cope with such a minor drawback is telling.

Most of all it's telling that we europeans don't have an attitude like "things have changed, that sucks, but let'sjust make the best of it". A minor adaptation-not retiring at 65 but at 67, could safe the system.

And europeans are not willing to make that minor sacrifice in order to safe their way of living, while at the same time they're not willing to give up their way of living either. That's the trait of a spoiled child.

Our luxury's have weakened us. We used to make our own stuff. Those where maybe our productive years. Now we can no longer produce our own luxury's, we need cheap labour from china and india.

Beside this, another reason why the ratio between old and young people has changed is because people no longer can deal with the responsibility of having childeren or they are no longer able to have long stable relationships.

No parent wants his child to have a life, worse than his own life. The fact that even parental love cannot move us to change our habits related to fossil fuels, etc, says it all: our addiction to luxury has grown even stronger than the strongest feelings of love we have.

The fact that in africa people don't work hard is that most african society's are so corrupt and so rotten through and through, that working doesn't pay. On top of that we subsidize agricultural exports to africa while for develloping economy's, a healthy agricultural sector is the first condition for economic prosperity and growth.
People are not going to work hard, if every effort to build something is in the end wasted because you either can't sell your products, whatever you build-up is eventually gonna be destroyed by warfare or taken from you by corrupt officials.