What are some techniques for microdosing 5-MeO-DMT salt?

[rainyvermillion]

A person I met online suggested a 5-MeO-DMT microdosing protocol, where you use a spray of 5-MeO solution intranasally, and then meditate for an hour. I thought this would be a beautiful way to deepen some of my meditation sits.

The trouble is, this person never gave me any more details than that, and now they're off the map. I've got 20mg of 5-MeO salt and a milligram scale, but I'm unsure of the best way to dose it for effects that might be in line with that protocol.

My thought was to dissolve ~5mg (which I could reasonably measure on my scale), in a measured amount of solvent (distilled water? acidified water? alcohol?), and then use a nasal sprayer to administer evenly portioned out dosages from that solution. I'm unsure of the target dose per sit, but based on my reading, I thought 0.5mg would qualify as a microdose.

Does anyone with experience microdosing 5-MeO have any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Transform]

Sterile physiological saline, sterile microfilters, and a standardised pump-spray bottle should get you there.

From the volume per pump - which you should be able to determine for yourself if it's not specified for the device - it's a matter of calculating how many mg of 5-MeO-DMT you want per spray and what that works out as as that relates to the number of doses you'll get from your 20mg.

Say you want 500μg per squirt, that's 40 squirts to be had from 20mg. This means you'd multiply the squirt volume by 40 to get the amount of solvent you'll use to make your solution.

Volumetrically, you'll actually most likely use slightly less saline because the active ingredient will contribute a little volume of its own.

It's worth bearing in mind that later doses can get "hotter" due to evaporation of solvent. This would be less of a problem with water than, say, ethanol.

Another thing to take into account is how you'll store it if it's not produced in a sterile clean room. Saline may only safely last a week or two in a refrigerator. You might get away with freezing it if the spray bottle can cope, but thawing it out every time could get tedious.

 

[blig-blug]

Another thing to take into account is how you'll store it if it's not produced in a sterile clean room

Maybe an option would be to use bacteriostatic water. I used it back when I dabbled into peptides, and it worked well. However peptides came in a sterile vial, so I suppose it would be necessary to sterilize the 5-MeO-DMT somehow.

 

[dreamer042]

Sublingual could also be an option, you'd just need to dissolve in a measured amount of water and drop it under your tongue.

 

[rainyvermillion]

Sterile physiological saline, sterile microfilters, and a standardised pump-spray bottle should get you there.

From the volume per pump - which you should be able to determine for yourself if it's not specified for the device - it's a matter of calculating how many mg of 5-MeO-DMT you want per spray and what that works out as as that relates to the number of doses you'll get from your 20mg.

Say you want 500μg per squirt, that's 40 squirts to be had from 20mg. This means you'd multiply the squirt volume by 40 to get the amount of solvent you'll use to make your solution.

Volumetrically, you'll actually most likely use slightly less saline because the active ingredient will contribute a little volume of its own.

It's worth bearing in mind that later doses can get "hotter" due to evaporation of solvent. This would be less of a problem with water than, say, ethanol.

Another thing to take into account is how you'll store it if it's not produced in a sterile clean room. Saline may only safely last a week or two in a refrigerator. You might get away with freezing it if the spray bottle can cope, but thawing it out every time could get tedious.

This is great information, thank you.

An acquaintance of mine who seems experienced with 5-MeO-DMT, told me yesterday that 5-MeO-DMT (in HCL form) doesn't degrade quickly in distilled water. He said the solution would last several years in the fridge in a vial. This sounds plausible to me considering how long Ayahuasca brews can last, but I know 5-MeO-DMT has different chemistry, and unlike a more acidic Aya brew, this is just distilled water. I'm curious what you think though.

As I plan to microdose, I don't think I'd get through the solution very quickly, so I need to decide if I want to dissolve everything (which is more convenient if it works), or dissolve smaller bits at a time.

 

[Transform]

This is great information, thank you.

An acquaintance of mine who seems experienced with 5-MeO-DMT, told me yesterday that 5-MeO-DMT (in HCL form) doesn't degrade quickly in distilled water. He said the solution would last several years in the fridge in a vial. This sounds plausible to me considering how long Ayahuasca brews can last, but I know 5-MeO-DMT has different chemistry, and unlike a more acidic Aya brew, this is just distilled water. I'm curious what you think though.

As I plan to microdose, I don't think I'd get through the solution very quickly, so I need to decide if I want to dissolve everything (which is more convenient if it works), or dissolve smaller bits at a time.

I was less concerned about the stability of the 5-MeO-DMT than the sterility of a solution you'd be squirting up your nose. It's best if it doesn't contain random mould mycelium.

@dreamer042's sublingual suggestion would be as convenient as any other method that involved weighing out each dose individually. The data for sublingual use is decidedly sparse though, as far as I'm aware.

 

[Varallo]

What works best for me is to buy two new saline nasal sprays. I empty one of them and put in the substance I want to dissolve. Then I use the other bottle to spray into the empty bottle the number of sprays I think I need, usually adding one or two extra. This is a good way to organize my dosage.

The advantage of this method is that if everything is done cleanly and the bottles are not reused, it stays reasonably safe. Still, salt water mixed with something like 5-Meo-DMT is not the best environment for bacteria or fungi, but contamination can still occur. I once used a ketamine spray after half a year in the fridge, and it caused a severe sinus infection. IMO is not worth storing nasal sprays for a long time, since they eventually spoil, and the infection can be very unpleasant.

When you plan on using this method many times it’s best to get a large supply of new empty spray bottles. And just fill each one from a fresh saline spray purchased at the store, and prepare only what you need for a single session. This way, the sprays are always single-use and never reused.

One last tip you could try, is adding a little propylene glycol. A few drops help prevent your nose from drying out after use and make the spray more pleasant.

 

[aizoaceous]

Do you know the counter-ion for your salt? The Usona paper says the hydrochloride does crystallize but is very hygroscopic, and it's thus uncommon. 5-MeO-DMT oxalate is common because it crystallizes easily, but the oxalate would not be my first choice for intranasal use. It might be fine, but it seems like it could be irritating, especially if an excess of acid is present. I'm not aware of any reported intranasal use of the oxalate.

I've only ever used the citrate, prepared by mixing water, the alkaloid base, and enough citric acid for pH ~ 5. As far as I know, the citrate can't be crystallized and the solution thus would usually be prepared from the base (since the amorphous salt is annoying to handle, sticky). The succinate is reported to crystallize, and I'd prefer to that to the oxalate. Beckley Psytech is currently running trials of the intranasal benzoate.

As to dose, 0.5 mg is below threshold for me. Jonathan Ott seems to report (use Sci-Hub) easily perceptible effects but otherwise normal consciousness and function at his 10 mg, perhaps the high end of a microdose. My experience is similar, though I'd note others report much stronger experiences at 10 mg. The onset is reasonably fast, so it's easy to start low and titrate up. Ott reports both intransal and sublingual use, with similar effects. I prefer sublingual, since that seems safer. I've just used a needle-less syringe for both routes, less convenient than a sprayer but easy to keep clean.

I once used a ketamine spray after half a year in the fridge, and it caused a severe sinus infection.

Interestingly Spravato ((S)-ketamine) is formulated without a preservative, since the active ingredient is described as inherently bacteriostatic and fungistatic. A Chinese patent mentions that (R)-ketamine was not, though that's quite uncommon in pure form. I don't see any claim for the racemate, but a random monograph for racemic ketamine for injection does show a preservative.

It seems like the (S)-ketamine must have some ability to preserve other constituents in a mixture, since I'd expect the EDTA in Spravato to grow fungus otherwise. I don't know whether it somehow can't preserve the (R)-ketamine in the racemate, or whether that preservative is just there from an abundance of caution. The broader point is maybe just that microbial activity in water solutions is complicated, and it's best not to take unnecessary risks.

 

[Varallo]

Do you know the counter-ion for your salt? The Usona paper says the hydrochloride does crystallize but is very hygroscopic, and it's thus uncommon. 5-MeO-DMT oxalate is common because it crystallizes easily, but the oxalate would not be my first choice for intranasal use. It might be fine, but it seems like it could be irritating, especially if an excess of acid is present. I'm not aware of any reported intranasal use of the oxalate.

I've only ever used the citrate, prepared by mixing water, the alkaloid base, and enough citric acid for pH ~ 5. As far as I know, the citrate can't be crystallized and the solution thus would usually be prepared from the base (since the amorphous salt is annoying to handle, sticky). The succinate is reported to crystallize, and I'd prefer to that to the oxalate. Beckley Psytech is currently running trials of the intranasal benzoate.

As to dose, 0.5 mg is below threshold for me. Jonathan Ott seems to report (use Sci-Hub) easily perceptible effects but otherwise normal consciousness and function at his 10 mg, perhaps the high end of a microdose. My experience is similar, though I'd note others report much stronger experiences at 10 mg. The onset is reasonably fast, so it's easy to start low and titrate up. Ott reports both intransal and sublingual use, with similar effects. I prefer sublingual, since that seems safer. I've just used a needle-less syringe for both routes, less convenient than a sprayer but easy to keep clean.


Interestingly Spravato ((S)-ketamine) is formulated without a preservative, since the active ingredient is described as inherently bacteriostatic and fungistatic. A Chinese patent mentions that (R)-ketamine was not, though that's quite uncommon in pure form. I don't see any claim for the racemate, but a random monograph for racemic ketamine for injection does show a preservative.

It seems like the (S)-ketamine must have some ability to preserve other constituents in a mixture, since I'd expect the EDTA in Spravato to grow fungus otherwise. I don't know whether it somehow can't preserve the (R)-ketamine in the racemate, or whether that preservative is just there from an abundance of caution. The broader point is maybe just that microbial activity in water solutions is complicated, and it's best not to take unnecessary risks.

Interesting that you mention that, because I’ve also wondered whether the antibacterial properties of ketamine might play a role in how long solutions of it can be stored. I don’t know if the liquid in my vial had actually gone bad, or if the issue was the nasal spray nozzle not being hygienic anymore. I had used it and then kept it in the fridge for a few months, which may have caused problems. Anyway that experience led me to never store nasal spray for longer than a few days. Single-use nasal spray bottles are ideal for this, because they prevent that kind of hassle.

I also know that many saline nasal sprays don’t contain preservatives yet they are not prone to bacterial growth as saline generally does not support much bacterial growth, I don’t think that ketamine would make it more susceptible to spoilage.

Even so, I’ve become very cautious because of my past experience.

Finally thanks for your very thorough response, it makes me really happy to see quality post like this

 

[Transform]

Interesting that you mention that, because I’ve also wondered whether the antibacterial properties of ketamine might play a role in how long solutions of it can be stored. I don’t know if the liquid in my vial had actually gone bad, or if the issue was the nasal spray nozzle not being hygienic anymore. I had used it and then kept it in the fridge for a few months, which may have caused problems. Anyway that experience led me to never store nasal spray for longer than a few days. Single-use nasal spray bottles are ideal for this, because they prevent that kind of hassle.

I also know that many saline nasal sprays don’t contain preservatives yet they are not prone to bacterial growth as saline generally does not support much bacterial growth, I don’t think that ketamine would make it more susceptible to spoilage.

Even so, I’ve become very cautious because of my past experience.

Finally thanks for your very thorough response, it makes me really happy to see quality post like this

Nasal spray instructions typically state that the nozzle must be cleaned after every use, and that they have a shelf life.

Swabbing with IPA before and after use would seem prudent, if the solution is being stored. 6 months seems a bit on the long side. My saline spray bottle here says 30 days.

 

[rainyvermillion]

Wow, thank you all for the good info. I'm thinking, for sterility's sake, I'll add the 5-MeO-DMT to a saline solution that's good enough for a month or so. After it runs out and I'm ready to dose again, I'll replace the bottle with fresh saline, or will try sublingual.