What do Curanderos think about the DMT experience and its rising popularity?

[Ajqij]

I’m going to answer this question, but first want to establish why I feel I’m qualified to do so. (For those unfamiliar “Curandero” is the Spanish term for a healer, spirit guide, and holder of sacred ceremonies and medicine journeys for the people of Mesoamerica.)

I recently returned to the States from Central America after living in Mexico for 10 years. (With an additional 10 years exploring South America before moving to Mexico.) During that time, I communed with, learned from, and became bonded with hundreds of indigenous people living in the jungles and remote mountain villages all across Mexico, the Yucatan Peninsula, and Guatemala. I didn’t just visit these people, I was invited into their homes, lives, and hearts and was included as part of their family. (This pic was taken in the Yucatan jungle on December 21st, 2012, a celebration I shared in with 300 villagers who knew the world was not coming to an end.)



I also conducted expeditions to ancient sacred sites in those geographies and hosted many travelers from around the world who were seeking to experience the ways of the ancients, including exploring plant medicines and sacred journeys. I participated in many ceremonies, rituals, and festivals, and became friends with Mayan Day Keepers, Curanderos, and Shamans who were known across the land. I have sat with Curanderos under the moonlight around the edge of sacrificial cenotes and queried them deeply about their ancient ways, their knowledge of hallucinogens, and their philosophy about plant medicine and its use, (Ayahuasca and DMT most notably).




So, now for the answer about what Curanderos think . . . while the wisdom varies depending on their culture, the general consensus is pretty much the same across the board. Here is what I wish to share with those of you who are open to learning things you perhaps do not know . . .

> Curanderos don’t think about the DMT experience, they know it and they are it.
> When asked if it’s wise to think critically about DMT they laugh and ask why be so critical?
> When asked how best to engage with DMT, they say to leave your mind at the door and enter your heart.
> When asked about “entities” that appear, they say they are “their ancestors,” but not mortal relatives.
> When queried further, they say that the ancestors are manifestations of the infinite in finite form.
> When asked about this paradox, they say that we don’t just exist in the cosmos, we are the cosmos.
> When asked if they endorse the widespread use of psychotropic substances the answers vary . . .
- Some are for it, some are against it, but all say its use must be held as sacred and with great reverence.
> When asked why, they say “Father Sky and Mother Earth” offer us medicine to remember who we are.
> When asked who we are, they smile, point to the heavens with one hand, and place the other hand over their hearts.

I humbly offer these insights and hope you resonate with them! In Lak’ech, (I am another yourself)

 

[Here&Now]

Very interesting stuff. If you had to quantify just how much experience they have in the DMT/ayahuasca realm, what would you say it'd be? Is it something they visit weekly for decades? I imagine their skills for navigating the space are extremely sharpened compared to the average psychonaut.

 

[Ajqij]

Very interesting stuff. If you had to quantify just how much experience they have in the DMT/ayahuasca realm, what would you say it'd be? Is it something they visit weekly for decades? I imagine their skills for navigating the space are extremely sharpened compared to the average psychonaut.

Really good question Here&. For most Curanderos, participating in Ayahuasca is part of their everyday lives, which doen't mean they engage daily, but rather that the medicine is a part of everything they do. And because they are practitiones, they are emersed in the experience 24/7 with or without the active medicine. Some healers engage with those who come to them while others refrain. As for "sharpened" . . . uh yeah, that's an understatement.

 

[Here&Now]

Really good question Here&. For most Curanderos, participating in Ayahuasca is part of their everyday lives, which doen't mean they engage daily, but rather that the medicine is a part of everything they do. And because they are practitiones, they are emersed in the experience 24/7 with or without the active medicine. Some healers engage with those who come to them while others refrain. As for "sharpened" . . . uh yeah, that's an understatement.

That's wild. Do they ever go into detail about ayahuasca's mechanisms for healing? Like how it works on a physical level, energetic, etc? Are entities a part of that process?

For me, ayahuasca has always been like the most cosmically therapeutic experience imaginable, often accompanied by profoundly intense bliss. I feel there must be processes occurring that aren't easily understood.

 

[Jamie01]

The idea that curranderos know and are the DMT experience sounds fanatical. I don’t mean to be rude, it’s just honestly how it came off reading it.

It’s hard for me to imagine people actually existing on such pedestals. I could just assume this is true, but that would also imo sort of undermine the humanity of everyone else involved.

How is it that they know and are the DMT experience? Are they super-human? What is everyone else?

 

[Ajqij]

The idea that curranderos know and are the DMT experience sounds fanatical. I don’t mean to be rude, it’s just honestly how it came off reading it.

It’s hard for me to imagine people actually existing on such pedestals. I could just assume this is true, but that would also imo sort of undermine the humanity of everyone else involved.

How is it that they know and are the DMT experience? Are they super-human? What is everyone else?

Jamie,

Your reaction is understandable and I appreciate you posting your opinion. What I have to share is also an opinion and not a superhuman truth, so let's riff on that if needed. Also, if you were with these people you wouldn't hold them on a pedestal (and neither do I) but you might hold them in awe if you opened your heart enough. Why? Because they are you and you are them. So who is everyone else? People with varying degrees of mastery in any field of experience. Some who have totally floored me and others I would like to floor. Let me try to convey this idea of "they are it." Have you ever watched a dope musician like Stevie Ray Vaughn, (my era) or someone that when you watch them, it's like really really clear they aren't playing their instrument . . . they are their instrument? Well, that's how many of the Curendaros are. If you ever want to go sit with them and see for yourself book a flight to Merida and ask around. Chill and Cheers bro.

 

[quantumtantra]

Having met some good healers, I can add that in addition to being medicine, they are normal people who have passports and travel by plane without any problems to perform ceremonies abroad. I believe that the main point is that the reality shown by the medicines is more expanded, encompassing ordinary reality, and after using them for a long time and doing many fasts with the medicines, these people can easily locate themselves in the worlds, living in their magical time but also interacting with the flight attendants offering snacks. It is not as if these people are dysfunctional.

 

[Ajqij]

Having met some good healers, I can add that in addition to being medicine, they are normal people who have passports and travel by plane without any problems to perform ceremonies abroad. I believe that the main point is that the reality shown by the medicines is more expanded, encompassing ordinary reality, and after using them for a long time and doing many fasts with the medicines, these people can easily locate themselves in the worlds, living in their magical time but also interacting with the flight attendants offering snacks. It is not as if these people are dysfunctional.

Q, thank you for that . . . when I was in the Northern Yucatan, the young son of one of the most revered healers within many kilometers was killed in a tragic accident. Rather than hold it together, this man asked for the support of the very community that looked to him for healing. I will never forget the sight of over 50 or so villagers gathered around him. He fell to his knees and cried into the arms of those who loved him. These Curanderos aren't super human they're just blessed with a gift of cosmological communion.

 

[Jamie01]

So do you think it’s a cultural thing? I have never been to south/Central America or spent time with people who come from a culture which actively uses these things.

I have met a lot of ppl who fly around and facilitate ceremonies. Years ago when I went to conferences and local events I would meet a lot(not all) of these people that did seem either kind of crazy or just total grifters. These people were always westerners from pretty much every ethnic background except the ones with traditions of use.

Why is it that this level of w/e it even is we are talking about is so rare in the west? If you imagine every little group in the past had one or more of these people…well just statistically there should be a lot of these people around. Are they just all the people out there society calls weird/odd/anti social etc?

I’m not even sure what I am asking I think it’s more an observation.

 

[Voidmatrix]

No sharing of any real life information

Due to the nature of the topics discussed on this forum it is not allowed to post any information that will reveal one's identity. Examples of this are facebook pages, personal websites, email addresses, home addresses, photo's of one self or any other means that will give handles to have you tracked in real life.

One love

 

[Ajqij]

So do you think it’s a cultural thing? I have never been to south/Central America or spent time with people who come from a culture which actively uses these things.

I have met a lot of ppl who fly around and facilitate ceremonies. Years ago when I went to conferences and local events I would meet a lot(not all) of these people that did seem either kind of crazy or just total grifters. These people were always westerners from pretty much every ethnic background except the ones with traditions of use.

Why is it that this level of w/e it even is we are talking about is so rare in the west? If you imagine every little group in the past had one or more of these people…well just statistically there should be a lot of these people around. Are they just all the people out there society calls weird/odd/anti social etc?

I’m not even sure what I am asking I think it’s more an observation.

J, ok, since you're asking (and/or observing with interest), I will give you my take on your ponderings, (with the understanding that what I offer is not the truth, just my POV). So is it a cultural thing? Definitely, I believe so. All, and I do mean all of the Curanderos I've ever met were taught the ways of the ancients from within their family of origins, so the healing vibe goes back centuries inside them.

Many (not all) of the folks that "fly around" and facilitate ceremonies either have just enough personal experience to appear wise, when in reality they're perhaps good-intended posers or despirate entreprenuers. There are, however, a few I've met who have nagual blood, (the life force of the ancestors) coursing through their viens and are the real deal.

So why are there so few authentic Curanderos here in the States and/or other modern societies? Because they're wise enough to know that those who are genuine in their intent to commune with plant medicine will seek them out. (Kinda like Terrence and Michael Mckenna did in the 1970s.) Plus, take this however you want . . . they are uninterested in contributing to "civilized" people who are too arrogant to receive and learn, and too caught up in their self-importance to care.

 

[Ajqij]

No sharing of any real life information

Due to the nature of the topics discussed on this forum it is not allowed to post any information that will reveal one's identity. Examples of this are facebook pages, personal websites, email addresses, home addresses, photo's of one self or any other means that will give handles to have you tracked in real life.

One love

Void, ok thanks.

 

[Varallo]

they are uninterested in contributing to "civilized" people who are too arrogant to receive and learn, and too caught up in their self-impotance to give a shit.

who have nagual blood, (the life force of the ancestors) coursing through their viens and are the real deal.

This strongly contradicts the very relational ethos of plant medicine which is in my opinion is about openness, humility, and transformation together. I don’t know any curanderos but the few I have met where very much the opposite of what you are describing.

If these “pure blood” curanderos are as wise, why would they be so easily offended by people they don’t even know? Why would they dismiss individuals based on assumptions and stereotypical beliefs about Western arrogance? Why would they not understand that one human may have many flaws and many beautiful qualities, all at the same time. I mean there’s only a little bit of empathy needed for these simple observations about the human condition.

I really have a hard time believing that people who dedicate their lives to helping others would withhold knowledge to help others, just because they happen to come from the “wrong” society? If this is really true it sounds a lot like projection and ignorance, so maybe it’s not that bad that “they don’t engage” .

 

[Jamie01]

Cool Ajgij…thanks for elaborating!

 

[Ajqij]

This strongly contradicts the very relational ethos of plant medicine which is in my opinion is about openness, humility, and transformation together. I don’t know any curanderos but the few I have met where very much the opposite of what you are describing.

If these “pure blood” curanderos are as wise, why would they be so easily offended by people they don’t even know? Why would they dismiss individuals based on assumptions and stereotypical beliefs about Western arrogance? Why would they not understand that one human may have many flaws and many beautiful qualities, all at the same time. I mean there’s only a little bit of empathy needed for these simple observations about the human condition.

I really have a hard time believing that people who dedicate their lives to helping others would withhold knowledge to help others, just because they happen to come from the “wrong” society? If this is really true it sounds a lot like projection and ignorance, so maybe it’s not that bad that “they don’t engage” .

It took me many years to understand the ways of Curanderos, let alone the cultural differences that added to the confusion. (There are still many things I do not understand and may never.) I don't blame you for struggling with what I shared V, as I too struggled with some of it for a long time. One thing many people who have never sat with a powerful healer and looked into them, is that people have the idea in their heads that medicine practitioners are "spiritually" inclined, and so they must possess all the fluffy traits we associate with that particular mode of belief. Looking deep into them and casting my projections aside, however, what I finally got was that their connection with the cosmos has little or nothing to do with spirituality as we understand it, other than the correlations of wholeness, interconnectedness, and reverence for Nature and life.

I'm not sure where you deduced that these healers are "easily offended, dismissive, or withholding." If anything, they are simply unmotivated to offer assistance to people who aren't yet open to receiving it. Doesn't automatically mean they're unloving or predjudice, more perhaps that they take the wise approach of Jesus by "not casting pearls before swine," (which doesn't imply pigs, but those who have not yet developed the eyes to see and ears to hear). This is not however, the case for those who come to Curanderos, open their hearts, humble themselves, and ask for healing. In that case, I've witnessed profound empathy and compassion and a resilience to be of service far beyond my meager capacity.

Rather than attempting to satisfy your skeptisisms, (and perhaps your disbelief in what I've shared here) maybe you ought to go seek a Curandero out and learn for yourself, not what I'm saying, but what you will say to yourself in their presence. The last thing I wish to offer you is an olive branch of empathy and understanding. Each of us is organized in a unique and different way, and it is at times hard to accept what we do not understand or don't believe is "valid." I'm working on it V, and invite you to do the same. Blessings to you.

 

[Tripolation]

When asked how best to engage with DMT, they say to leave your mind at the door and enter your heart.

I have always enjoyed learning about different cultures around the world. I listen to music from all around the world. Every culture has a unique way to approach everything in life, including healing. I have often had a particular interests in curanderos and shamans or Mexico and South America. Hell.. I even named my dog after Maria Sabina. I have much respect for their culture and ways of doing things, especially healing. I think it's awesome that you had some adventures in life that exposed you to their worlds. I would imagine that being around those people and being accepted as family had a healing effect all by itself. I am a little jealous of your adventures. Sounds fricking awesome to me! Thanks for sharing all this information.

Leave your mind at the door and enter with your heart. It is the same message I had received working with psychedelics. Let's see... I have been doing psychedelics for 37 years now. Not all the dang time. But I have ingested many psychedelics over that period of time. I self-regulate and do them when they call. I have over-done them, maybe even abused them and have used them to escape reality. I used them for the wrong reasons and I have to say they pretty much pointed that out to me over time.

Maybe I am stupid or something.. but it took me years to get the message. I now used psychedelics with enormous respect and reverence. My psychedelic practices evolved into something akin to a ayahuasca ceremony, at least with DMT and Mushrooms it has. I think it was because I watched how shamans did it and attempted to emulate them in my own western way. Psychedelics became a tool of healing and I take that seriously. It is important to me. When I began to use psychedelics in a healing way and pay attention to what lessons I was receiving, I found psychedelics softening my very being. Taking me out of my mind and placing me into my heart.

Living in the heart is what I have been trying to do. Going into my heart more and more. It's uncomfortable for me. I had to let a lot of stuff go to do that. I really had to look at my mind and what it does. I began to see the illusions the mind creates. I love my mind and I think it was doing what it thought was best for me. It was simply just trying to survive, to keep my head above water. The mind is not the problem, it that I was identifying with it. I am not my mind. I am my heart. This message I received loud and clear and I am doing my best to evolve into that. This is taking me practice. Soon I will be going to take a visit to hyperspace and I will be thinking. leave your mind, enter your heart.



The entire Universe is condensed in the body, and the entire body in the Heart. Thus the Heart is the nucleus of the whole Universe. ~Ramana Maharshi

 

[Ajqij]

I have always enjoyed learning about different cultures around the world. I listen to music from all around the world. Every culture has a unique way to approach everything in life, including healing. I have often had a particular interests in curanderos and shamans or Mexico and South America. Hell.. I even named my dog after Maria Sabina. I have much respect for their culture and ways of doing things, especially healing. I think it's awesome that you had some adventures in life that exposed you to their worlds. I would imagine that being around those people and being accepted as family had a healing effect all by itself. I am a little jealous of your adventures. Sounds fricking awesome to me! Thanks for sharing all this information.

Leave your mind at the door and enter with your heart. It is the same message I had received working with psychedelics. Let's see... I have been doing psychedelics for 37 years now. Not all the dang time. But I have ingested many psychedelics over that period of time. I self-regulate and do them when they call. I have over-done them, maybe even abused them and have used them to escape reality. I used them for the wrong reasons and I have to say they pretty much pointed that out to me over time.

Maybe I am stupid or something.. but it took me years to get the message. I now used psychedelics with enormous respect and reverence. My psychedelic practices evolved into something akin to a ayahuasca ceremony, at least with DMT and Mushrooms it has. I think it was because I watched how shamans did it and attempted to emulate them in my own western way. Psychedelics became a tool of healing and I take that seriously. It is important to me. When I began to use psychedelics in a healing way and pay attention to what lessons I was receiving, I found psychedelics softening my very being. Taking me out of my mind and placing me into my heart.

Living in the heart is what I have been trying to do. Going into my heart more and more. It's uncomfortable for me. I had to let a lot of stuff go to do that. I really had to look at my mind and what it does. I began to see the illusions the mind creates. I love my mind and I think it was doing what it thought was best for me. It was simply just trying to survive, to keep my head above water. The mind is not the problem, it that I was identifying with it. I am not my mind. I am my heart. This message I received loud and clear and I am doing my best to evolve into that. This is taking me practice. Soon I will be going to take a visit to hyperspace and I will be thinking. leave your mind, enter your heart.



The entire Universe is condensed in the body, and the entire body in the Heart. Thus the Heart is the nucleus of the whole Universe. ~Ramana Maharshi

Trip . . . what a great and vulnerable sharing my new friend. I sat here and read your words repeatedly feeling into you and into your devotion. People like you give me hopre for the modern world. I spent 20 years in Central and South America because I was feeling poisoned by the hubris, excess, and orchestrated control of the mind of the masses here in the States. I returned last year because I was being called to share what I've learned from the beautiful human beings I encountered during my expeditions and journeys south. I feel like a stranger in a strange land, and what is astonishing is how distracted people are, how much in debt they are, and how much they've turned away from the grace that dwells within them. I'm a warrior, though and am here to do all I can to offer guidance and support to those who can see and hear what is missing. Yes, "leave your mind, enter your heart." It has become my mantra these past ten years especially. Blessings brother.

 

[doubledog]

Thank you for this.
I have to say that after 30 years of my regular but sporadic use of entheogenic or psychedelic plants I came to very similar conclusions.

Is there any local tradition of ayahuasca use in Central America? I thought that it's only a thing for South America people.

 

[Varallo]

It took me many years to understand the ways of Curanderos, let alone the cultural differences that added to the confusion. (There are still many things I do not understand and may never.) I don't blame you for struggling with what I shared V, as I too struggled with some of it for a long time. One thing many people who have never sat with a powerful healer and looked into them, is that people have the idea in their heads that medicine practitioners are "spiritually" inclined, and so they must possess all the fluffy traits we associate with that particular mode of belief. Looking deep into them and casting my projections aside, however, what I finally got was that their connection with the cosmos has little or nothing to do with spirituality as we understand it, other than the correlations of wholeness, interconnectedness, and reverence for Nature and life.

I'm not sure where you deduced that these healers are "easily offended, dismissive, or withholding." If anything, they are simply unmotivated to offer assistance to people who aren't yet open to receiving it. Doesn't automatically mean they're unloving or predjudice, more perhaps that they take the wise approach of Jesus by "not casting pearls before swine," (which doesn't imply pigs, but those who have not yet developed the eyes to see and ears to hear). This is not however, the case for those who come to Curanderos, open their hearts, humble themselves, and ask for healing. In that case, I've witnessed profound empathy and compassion and a resilience to be of service far beyond my meager capacity.

Rather than attempting to satisfy your skeptisisms, (and perhaps your disbelief in what I've shared here) maybe you ought to go seek a Curandero out and learn for yourself, not what I'm saying, but what you will say to yourself in their presence. The last thing I wish to offer you is an olive branch of empathy and understanding. Each of us is organized in a unique and different way, and it is at times hard to accept what we do not understand or don't accept as "valid." I'm working on it V, and invite you to do the same. Blessings to you.

I think you’re avoiding the core critique here.
When I point out that exclusion based on cultural or spiritual assumptions seems contradictory to the values of healing, it’s not helpful to respond by implying I am just not ready to understand, and need, like you, ages to get it, or that I should go “see for myself.” That’s not engagement it’s classic deflection. It makes it really difficult for people to engage with you because this behavior seems to be so prevalent in most of your communications, making me worried that this might be something that you don’t notice yourself.

No one’s doubting that there are strong traditions. What’s being questioned is the framework you’re presenting: one where people are dismissed not because of their intent or openness, but because they’re assumed to be too Western, too arrogant, or not yet “able to receive.” That is a stereotype, and wrapping it in spiritual material doesn’t make it less so.

I'm not sure where you deduced that these healers are "easily offended, dismissive, or withholding." If anything, they are simply unmotivated to offer assistance to people who aren't yet open to receiving it.

You asked where I got the idea that these healers might be withholding or dismissive, in your own words, you said they’re:

they are uninterested in contributing to "civilized" people who are too arrogant to receive and learn, and too caught up in their self-importance to care.

This is not something I projected it’s something you stated directly. Combined with the statement that they than don’t engage and rather withhold their ‘teachings’ makes me question that.

So when I asked why supposedly these healers would withhold knowledge based on cultural assumptions, it was a response to that exact framing. If you don’t believe that’s representative of their mindset, or you where mistaken, that is okay, but let’s not rewrite the conversation as if those ideas came from me. I’m engaging with what you presented.

 

[blig-blug]

I don't question that people that have lived with and for psychedelics their whole lives, and may come from at least a few generations of people doing so, for sure know a thing or two about the plants they use and the spaces those plants lead to. However, I would caution about turning that into the "ancient traditions" trope, unless it's "ancient" in the sense that some things are "ancient" in the US (100-200 years).

Clearly, the descendants of the Mayan people aren't living in societies that resemble much the societies of their ancestors a thousand years ago, for the better and for the worse. They live in societies part of the current, global techno-industrial society, even if they have managed to keep some remains of their traditions and old ways of life alive. And while I think that the Neolithic was a disaster for humanity and the so-called "discovery" of America was a disaster for the people living there, it's convenient to not forget that many societies there, particularly the more advanced ones (like the Mayans) were deeply unequal and violent societies. I don't consider a tragedy that traditions such as human sacrifice died out. The Mayan civilization is also a civilization that collapsed more than once, they seemed to be as "in balance" with their environment as Sumerians were (which is to say, not much, but still undoubtedly more than our current global system).

To make a comparison, a hundred years ago (or even just 50 in some regions) many rural areas in Europe still preserved many old ways of living, practices, and beliefs. But to have considered their folk healers and midwives as "Celts" (for example) and pretend that their beliefs and those of the ancient peoples they still preserve some traditions of are the same would have been preposterous. I don't really see any difference, in many ways rural Europeans of a hundred years ago were much more culturally shielded from the then-expanding techno-industrial system than current rural Mexicans (as there was no TV, no Internet, etc.).

So, I think it's important to listen to what people who do have a tradition of psychedelics use think about the expansion of its use throughout the world, but in my opinion it's also important to not idealize them, nor romanticize or absolutize their (likely recent, by historical terms) traditions.

This being said, how I interpret

they are uninterested in contributing to "civilized" people who are too arrogant to receive and learn, and too caught up in their self-importance to care.

is not as "they think all Westerners are too arrogant to receive and learn", but as that they think Western culture is too arrogant to receive and learn and thus they have no interest in "contributing" to it. That is, the point is about the culture and not about individuals belonging to it. Which, with the caveat above (it's not like they are not influenced by the so-called Western culture), I agree with.

Edit: also, it's clear that they don't think that all Westerners are too arrogant to receive and learned, as the OP is a Westerner that has been learning from them.