What is ok to talk about with the public?

[NeitherHere]

I take a few things into consideration when discussing ANY psychedelics with anyone.

can they keep a job?
do they readily take care of responsibilities like bills,selfcare, home care, and so on?
are they mature?
can I trust this person with my freedom and life?
if the answers are ALL yes then I might entertain a passive and fiend ignorant but educated discussion about the topic "I haven't done it but I know this"

if they're irresponsible, immature, clearly appear to be a drug user, and will readily shirk their own part in something at the expense of someone elses freedom i.e. "snitching" then the answer is an adamant NO. I won't be seen with them let alone discuss anything entheogen related.

it may sound harsh but I have to do what I can to insulate myself from anyone who would endanger my freedom and wellfare.

at the end of the day it's my responsibility to ONLY share this information with people responsible and ready on multiple fronts to participate. sharing information and DMT with anyone who doesn't fit these parameters is not only unsafe for your wellfare and freedom but theirs as well. I've met plenty of people who were woefully unprepared for what they got themselves into with dmt because it was "all the rage" and "all the homies say it's the shizz". I won't have it on my concious that I sent someone to the psych ward for having irresponsibly shared dmt or taught someone who wasn't prepared about how to access it.

personally, I opt to remain as anonymous as possible. only 2 people who know my real identity know I have access to dmt. one of which being my lifelong best friend. growing up he had accessed it really young and I remember him always telling me "you don't buy dmt, don't even ask. DMT finds you when you're ready not when you want it" sure enough I didn't find DMT until I was ready. I don't think it should be readily available. I don't think it should be something you can source directly. I think the NEXUS has it pretty accurately outlined within "attitudes" because it is truly powerful medicine capable of great harm if abused.

I intentionally attempt to underdose myself when ever I use it. I don't have a mg scale yet and I have had a few accidental LAUNCHES because of it but I do my best to treat it with respect. part of that respect is not glorifying it to people who would miss use or abuse it.

The only time I readily or openly discuss entheogens is when I've identified some one who is clearly struggling having exhausted all of their possibly resources. people who would sincerely benefit from tryptamines like psilocybin and dmt like combat veterans, people with ptsd in general, and so on and even then I slowly walk the discussion in "have you ever considered psilocybin?". I don't tell them " hey man I've got this stuff you can take and it'll make everything better" because that's not how any of this works. but there are those who would really benefit from it and all I do is plant that seed of hope that maybe just maybe there's still options out there. more often than not those people have absolutely NO clue about psychedelics. they are responsible, respectful, kind, mature, and I tend to trust them with my freedom and life because as bad as it sounds they would give anything to have an ounce of hope and relief from the things that haunt them including protecting my identity and freedom as strongly as they would their own.

more often than not these are people visibly at "the end of the rope" like I was when I finally gave tryptamines a chance.


none of this is to "gate keep" even though that's effectively what it is. I don't do it to willfully deprive people, I do it because not everyone is ready for it. especially those who are so adamant to try it. usually they're the ones who need to avoid it the most.

so that's my take, I'm sure not every nexian will agree with my approach and that's fine. But I feel that DMT requires as much if not even more respect than handing a stranger a loaded gun. the risks tend to outweigh the rewards unless that person can prove that they're responsible enough to keep it pointed in a safe direction and show it great respect.

before anyone says anything, I am going through it with my health and trying to find work because of it. if I saw myself openly trying to source substances I wouldn't be caught within 20 meters of myself. fortunately I don't source like that and I don't socialize like that, mostly because of what I've discussed above. it's not worth the headache or risks these days.

I hope you're all having a good new years and are safe

 

[aethereon]

I just wanted to share my experience, i kinda popped in here and haven't read through the whole thread, am only gathering the subject from the subject line and a very brief skimming of the posts.

I was doing a course a while back and on one of the days off one of the employees of this company running the course invited me on a canoeing adventure. I thought this person was totally chill and down to earth and i kinda wanted to ask them what they thought of dmt/changa but held back, told myself not everyone needs to know/there's other stuff to talk about etc. Later on it was just the two of us and he told me his ex-wife got mixed up with some drug users taking the evil substance of DMT, and these drug users where just using DMT to 'get in bed with girls' and now she was totally addicted to the deems and he feared for his kids. Meanwhile this guy was just smoking rollies(tobacco) like it was going out of style and it just sounded to me like they had a sort of falling out and he was sort of resenting her for the crowd she was hanging out with and wishing to pin all this on some 'evil substance' instead of taking responsibility for himself. That could be a made up story in my head, maybe what he said was 100% accurate but his vilification of DMT just didn't seem completely in alignment with the way he was recounting the story. Not to say what he said was impossible (for people to become addicted or even for people to use it with 'ulterior motives' like described above) but I could also see there being more to the story than he was willing to let on. Needless to say I'm glad I held my tongue, before he seemed super hippy and laidback and you'd think he'd be totally down but you just never quite fully can tell until you know a person pretty dang well.

 

[NeitherHere]

I just wanted to share my experience, i kinda popped in here and haven't read through the whole thread, am only gathering the subject from the subject line and a very brief skimming of the posts.

I was doing a course a while back and on one of the days off one of the employees of this company running the course invited me on a canoeing adventure. I thought this person was totally chill and down to earth and i kinda wanted to ask them what they thought of dmt/changa but held back, told myself not everyone needs to know/there's other stuff to talk about etc. Later on it was just the two of us and he told me his ex-wife got mixed up with some drug users taking the evil substance of DMT, and these drug users where just using DMT to 'get in bed with girls' and now she was totally addicted to the deems and he feared for his kids. Meanwhile this guy was just smoking rollies(tobacco) like it was going out of style and it just sounded to me like they had a sort of falling out and he was sort of resenting her for the crowd she was hanging out with and wishing to pin all this on some 'evil substance' instead of taking responsibility for himself. That could be a made up story in my head, maybe what he said was 100% accurate but his vilification of DMT just didn't seem completely in alignment with the way he was recounting the story. Not to say what he said was impossible (for people to become addicted or even for people to use it with 'ulterior motives' like described above) but I could also see there being more to the story than he was willing to let on. Needless to say I'm glad I held my tongue, before he seemed super hippy and laidback and you'd think he'd be totally down but you just never quite fully can tell until you know a person pretty dang well.

Yeah man, gotta be careful with the WOOK A LIKES they do infact exist. Quite an interesting phenomenon. Years back I met a dude with long thick dreads, everything he owned was related to bob marley. Hoodies, sweats, posters, smelled strong of incense, very RHASTAFARI. Then he started talking about how he hated weed and how pot heads were lazy etc. really weird interaction ot's been over a decade and I'm still confused.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Yeah man, gotta be careful with the WOOK A LIKES they do infact exist. Quite an interesting phenomenon. Years back I met a dude with long thick dreads, everything he owned was related to bob marley. Hoodies, sweats, posters, smelled strong of incense, very RHASTAFARI. Then he started talking about how he hated weed and how pot heads were lazy etc. really weird interaction ot's been over a decade and I'm still confused.

Were they of African descent? I and many others of African descent have found what it means to be black through Rastafarian culture. That may explain why they aligned with many things but not cannabis.

One love

 

[Kobranek]

At the 2015 Denver cannabis cup there was an undercover agent who looked straight hippy straight up taking photos of everyone's license plates out in the open. Blazing a j passing by with windows rolled down with the middle fingers up

Over time it is not hard to feel someone out for who they really are. My buddy who introduced me to dmt who went with us to the cup straight up started wigging out acting all shady and disconnected with us on the way back for no reason at all. Some folks have some demons that they are battling and can change over time.

Nieces boyfriend was last person to discuss dmt with and now he's a complete abusive jerk to her. Glad it never went further than talking about it with no mention of having access... whew!

 

[NeitherHere]

Were they of African descent? I and many others of African descent have found what it means to be black through Rastafarian culture. That may explain why they aligned with many things but not cannabis.

One love

He was mixed ethnicity, it didn't feel like he was reaching for an identity or anything like that. Either way he was a pretty funny and unusual character

 

[northape]

I was very pro psychedelics for many years. It was the answer to everything...
This old tale of adding it to communal water to enlighten society. Fortunately I'm a very introverted person
Still I ended up annoying a few unlucky individuals.

Looking back, I was very high on medicine and my baseline was shifted in a more elevated state.
Plant medicines were such a relief for me at the time and I wanted to share. One's social circle plays a huge role in it too.

Nowadays I'd rather advise against any use if it comes up in a conversation.
I'd talk only with someone really struggling in life.
These substances are a double-edged sword and can do a lot of damage without a proper approach and respect.

I remember earlier JRE episodes when he talked about DMT every other podcast and now he rarely mentions it.
It’s such an astonishing experience that it stays in our minds for a while.
I think with some maturity we recognize our folly and adjust accordingly.

One of the last times I hunted mushrooms with friends there was this dude.
We saw this sketchy character and went in another direction, but he kept coming closer.
Upon meeting our group he was like: “Hunting mushrooms? Are you gonna get off tonight?”
I don’t know how to express it in english. He was implying some drug experience.
So to each his own. Some seek medicine for healing and others try to get off even with a sacred wild mushroom.
I think he was seeking healing too in a way, but who knows. I see more characters like these and even our group stopped with mushroom hunting.
Psychedelics are fun in the beginning but then “the work” begins and very few want to continue.
Maybe it’s different in other parts of the world. I hope it is.

 

[🌺🔥🫧]

Western culture doesn’t understand how to be with psychedelics. In other cultures kids and babies even have psychedelics. We are so fragile it’s incredible. People don’t give them any reverence and respect. They take them recreationally, from a place of need and desperation, or as a one off fix. The context of trance-endental experience is deeply tied into the fabric of many other cultures. It’s even carved into their bowls lol. I see lots of posts reflecting various aspects of our culture’s fragility. The answer is with more grace, not more timidity. As if we have a choice even. There is no sincere outwards facing care and curiosity here and we need it desperately. I understand that in the west it’s mostly bros that are doing psychs, but we seriously need more feminine energy LITERALLY EVERYWHERE and the guys need to humble up and *team up* with the feminine energy. Psychedelics are not intellectual, exploitable, or good distractors from the truth. We don’t know how to Live WITH them.

 

[Animistic]

I used to be much more evangelical about psychedelics, Ayahuasca in particular. I've mellowed significantly in this regard, mostly due to seeing my evangelical approach bringing people who weren't ready to see things they can't unsee. That said I consider myself pretty open to talk to people about it, I would be more inclined to enter a discussion than not but only if it comes up and it would vary whether or not I am going to speak as if I have direct experience or not. I find myself often playing more of a devils advocate role, when I see someone mindlessly spruiking them or making them out to be a panacea I will talk of their dangers and their risks from my own personal experience and anecdotes. When I see someone dismissing them I will advocate for them in some degree, sometimes more direct and other times more distantly. If I see some curiosity about them I try to bring some experience to the table whether that be talking about them in a first person sense or "oh I have a friend who.."

I generally don't recommend or refer people to Ayahuasca circles unless I've had multiple years to get to know them and only if they ask and are persistent in their asking.

Western culture doesn’t understand how to be with psychedelics. In other cultures kids and babies even have psychedelics. We are so fragile it’s incredible. People don’t give them any reverence and respect. They take them recreationally, from a place of need and desperation, or as a one off fix. The context of trance-endental experience is deeply tied into the fabric of many other cultures. It’s even carved into their bowls lol. I see lots of posts reflecting various aspects of our culture’s fragility. The answer is with more grace, not more timidity. As if we have a choice even. There is no sincere outwards facing care and curiosity here and we need it desperately. I understand that in the west it’s mostly bros that are doing psychs, but we seriously need more feminine energy LITERALLY EVERYWHERE and the guys need to humble up and *team up* with the feminine energy. Psychedelics are not intellectual, exploitable, or good distractors from the truth. We don’t know how to Live WITH them.

I'd be careful in saying they are not intellectual, exploitable or good distractions from the truth. They can in fact be all of those things but they are not limited to them by any means. Just look at their uptake in the tech community, the sheer volume of money spent at the moment trying to commercialize them (both in the Amazon and abroad), not to mention the abuse that can occur when people are under the influcence and see what happens when a narcissist takes psychedelics to know all of those things are relatively true. I find the best way to think of them is non-specific amplifiers.

I also wouldn't say that more feminine energy is needed literally everywhere but agree with you for the most part. As a man I have experienced spaces where a more solid, paternal, loving dad energy could be absolutely grand. I am only saying this because of the "literally everywhere" statement, otherwise I agree.

I really love listening and learning from feminine women in the psychedelic space, I've learned a lot. I find they're not the ones standing up and demanding interviews and so might seem more invisible. In the Ayahuasca community I meet a lot of women who are strong pillars in their community.

 

[Voidmatrix]

In other cultures kids and babies even have psychedelics

I think we should be careful about this. Brain development is a real thing. The brain doesn't mature until the mid-twenties. Some of these cultures may not be aware of this and this may impact their cultures in negative ways.

Also, psychedelics are non-descript amplifiers, so they can influence both negative and positive things.

Psychedelics are neither good nor bad. How they're used can be looked at as good or bad. We, here, just value them greatly.

One love

 

[Tripolation]

When in Rome. When not in Rome, well, I don't talk about that stuff. People who have not tried psychedelics just don't get it. They can't understand. Also, it's a highly personal topic and requires a high amount of trust for me to share. Loose lips sinks ships as they say.

 

[CommonConduit]

Psychedelics are neither good nor bad. How they're used can be looked at as good or bad. We, here, just value them greatly.

As much as we're fascinated by the substances, it seems obvious that they shouldn't be the point of what we'd want to get across to people?
The experience can be soooo different, depending on where the person's at.
Be public about this all being one thing that's happening instead?
Then maaaaybe add psychedelics, for sprinkles.

My roommate here in the place I'm staying at made a sign on cardboard.
It read:

HI EVERONE

(without the Y)

I was tripping on that for a good 5 seconds

 

[Voidmatrix]

As much as we're fascinated by the substances, it seems obvious that they shouldn't be the point of what we'd want to get across to people?

Exactly. While you won't get the treasure without trying them, they are not the treasure, though I treasure them deeply. It's about what they open up and the work that can be done.

One love

 

[northape]

I think we should be careful about this. Brain development is a real thing. The brain doesn't mature until the mid-twenties. Some of these cultures may not be aware of this and this may impact their cultures in negative ways.

What is brain development if not an adaptation to your environment (place & culture)?
So basically theirs youths is more adapted to aya and other plants than we.
Who can say what is better? Traditional way is more time tested, imo.

Basically nature gives us time up to our 30s to make babies.
We are given all the tools and life force to make it happen.
So this "brain development" is just a rate of adaptation we get until a certain age. It's a kind of potential.

P.S. Modern science is a form of religion too with its own vocabulary. It's just a description of how reality behaves,
an aproximation of how things are. I wouldn't take it too seriously.
Just cause it works so well with matter, doesn't mean it's a well developed theory.

 

[Animistic]

I think we should be cautious giving psychedelics to adolescents because of their non specific amplifier nature as @Voidmatrix has said. But I think the harms/benefits are more culturally mediated than brain physiology mediated. Problem is adolescents often go take lots of psychedelics in unheld, risky, isolated situations. There are no wise elders, no culturally mediated process, their community rejects their use for the most part and so they take them in isolation. When it's a bunch of immature teens taking powerfully agents of change I think a less than ideal setting is being surrounded by nothing but other immature teens. Blind leading the blind. Not to say my forays into psychedelics were ideal but after the first few times I preferred taking them solo for the most part, groups can be amazing if they have the right culture but we still exist within the broader framework of this western society which as @🌺🔥🫧 said, still very much needs to learn to live with them.

Other cultures seem to allow under 25s to take these sacraments and if there was major harms to their development then I doubt it would be so wide spread across various entheogenic using cultures.

 

[Voidmatrix]

...

What is brain development if not an adaptation to your environment (place & culture)?
So basically theirs youths is more adapted to aya and other plants than we.
Who can say what is better? Traditional way is more time tested, imo.

Basically nature gives us time up to our 30s to make babies.
We are given all the tools and life force to make it happen.
So this "brain development" is just a rate of adaptation we get until a certain age. It's a kind of potential.

P.S. Modern science is a form of religion too with its own vocabulary. It's just a description of how reality behaves,
an aproximation of how things are. I wouldn't take it too seriously.
Just cause it works so well with matter, doesn't mean it's a well developed theory.

Pay close attention to how I worded my original message... I said nothing definite other than that brain maturation was a real thing. I didn't say anything was better... I said we should be careful.

I don't think there's anything wrong with my advocating of not GIVING CONTROLLED SUBSTSNCES TO CHILDREN. Doesn't mean they can't participate in ceremony and ritual in other ways though.

Just because something is old doesn't make it more valid. That's called appeal to antiquity.

So you made a comment about nature giving us until our thirties. Is this not a scientific claim of sorts?

I'm also unlikely to concede that the human genome is so different that brain development is that drastically different around the world.

You're also missing the point as to why I brought up brain development. Some cultures know things that others don't by virtue of being able to get different types of information in different ways from thinking in different ways. So the potential of say, impacts to the prefrontal cortex, may not be considered by one culture but can be noticed by another.

And the last part is a kind of equivocation. Science is a methodology, just because some people use it or treat it religiously doesn't make it a religion...

One love

 

[Voidmatrix]

Other cultures seem to allow under 25s to take these sacraments and if there was major harms to their development then I doubt it would be so wide spread across various entheogenic using cultures.

If everyone is potentially developing the same issue from the same source they may not notice because there standard for comparison isn't dynamic.

One love

 

[Voidmatrix]

Just because some other cultures has done something for a long time doesn't mean it should just continue without critical evaluation. In a globalized world nothing is in a vacuum anymore and we have many tools and lenses for scrutiny of ideas we have. We should use them.

Otherwise, there are elements of this conversation that appeal to psychedelic sensationalism, something else I think we should be careful with.

Psychedelics are neither good nor bad. How they're used can be looked at as good or bad.

One love

 

[northape]

Pay close attention to how I worded my original message... I said nothing definite other than that brain maturation was a real thing. I didn't say anything was better... I said we should be careful.

Sorry if it came out as an attack. It was never my intention. I'm all for attacking ideas in general, never persons.
Anyhow, thanks for schooling me here. It just shows how different we all interpret stuff.

I don't think there's anything wrong with my advocating of not GIVING CONTROLLED SUBSTSNCES TO CHILDREN. Doesn't mean they can't participate in ceremony and ritual in other ways though.

I'm in total agreement here.

Just because something is old doesn't make it more valid. That's called appeal to antiquity.

I meant "time tested" more as safe. Traditional cultures have been using plants before modernity, and they are still here.
Even western culture came out of tradition. It's just that most of the knowledge has been eradicated.
We have no idea how safe our pharmacological medical system in a long run.

So you made a comment about nature giving us until our thirties. Is this not a scientific claim of sorts?

Folk science maybe? It's more of an observation that science is in agreement with.

I'm also unlikely to concede that the human genome is so different that brain development is that drastically different around the world.

Agree. Some variation is a must, but it should be insignificantly small.

You're also missing the point as to why I brought up brain development. Some cultures know things that others don't by virtue of being able to get different types of information in different ways from thinking in different ways. So the potential of say, impacts to the prefrontal cortex, may not be considered by one culture but can be noticed by another.

Yup, that have I missed.
I'd say that we all have different worldviews:
Westerners use intellect and reason to describe reality. Traditional cultures are all about myths and storytelling.
So they could have noticed the impact but used a different way to preserve this knowledge.

Modern people judge success by material gains. It's only on deathbed, many remember true values.
Are we really so advanced and civilized as we like to believe? Are our logic and tech so much better than a life in accord with nature?

And the last part is a kind of equivocation. Science is a methodology, just because some people use it or treat it religiously doesn't make it a religion...

One love

religion:
a particular system of faith and worship.
a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.

axiom:
a statement or proposition which is regarded as being established, accepted, or self-evidently true

It's for sure used as religion everywhere. What is an axiom if not a certain belief about reality?
I'd separate "scientific method" from the use of the word "science". It's just my preference, no need to agree

 

[Voidmatrix]

I owe you an apology as well. While i want to be kind and compassionate all the time, I'm generally pretty cranky as well. I'm extra cranky when I don't sleep and I read your response first thing upon awakening and then responded, but didn't respond in the tone that I actually meant to.And no worries. I didn't feel personally attacked. I suppose I'm just passionately incisive.

Modern people judge success by material gains. It's only on deathbed, many remember true values.
Are we really so advanced and civilized as we like to believe? Are our logic and tech so much better than a life in accord with nature?

Probably not. But have we asked why materialism happens to be so appealing? It's something that we can have the easiest intersubjective concensus on. One person's myth may not map well onto another person's mind in a way to interpret "reality." Not saying that that makes it a better view or anything, but exploring why it's prevalent.

religion:
a particular system of faith and worship.
a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.

axiom:
a statement or proposition which is regarded as being established, accepted, or self-evidently true

It's for sure used as religion everywhere. What is an axiom if not a certain belief about reality?
I'd separate "scientific method" from the use of the word "science". It's just my preference, no need to agree

Post in thread 'Void's Skepticism Delineation' Void's Skepticism Delineation

For any system we create we have to start with unverifiable assumptions. The method is what sets science a part from religion, as well as the investigatory mode.

Where it's like religion is usually in the domain of conclusions drawn from data collected from observation. There are a lot of conclusions that are considered definite when they likely reside in the realm of likelihood.

However, this is also why I stated that its about how people use a system. I agree that many people use science in a religious way, but its predicates kind of make it not a religion in the same sense as other "religions".

Which I think we should highlight, because it's ironic, that religion is very much a western concept. For a long time Indian people didn't consider Hinduism a religion. It was just a system, a very varied system.

One love