What is the ancient Soma or Haoma?

[Varallo]

There's nothing that says what plant Soma/Haoma was, indeed. Still, not all hypotheses are equally supported by the evidence. The first half of Haoma and Harmaline, a serious research work unlike a lot in this field, is quite convincing (I didn't read the second part about linguistic evidence because only someone specialized in linguistics could find it interesting, it's extremely dense). As long as it's not presented as an absolute fact, I think it's an idea worth considering. Speculation is not negative unless it's baseless and/or starts being treated as fact, and it can be the source of new ideas.

I worded my thoughts to strongly, and I agree that speculation is not an negative, but wouldn’t you say the ephedra hypothesis is better grounded and has less pitfalls?

When reading these two articles I am much less inclined to think that the Rue hypothesis is equally valid as to the ephedra (Hom) hypothesis. Both from historical sources and linguistic sources the ephedra hypothesis has the upper hand. The Syrian rue hypothesis seems driven by a kind of confirmation bias, the mystical effects described in the texts are treated as if they must reflect a psychoactive agent, and the evidence is then retrofitted to match that assumption. IMO it should be treated as an interesting but disputed hypothesis rather than as a coequal explanation.

https://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/haoma-ii/

https://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/haoma-i/

 

[blig-blug]

I worded my thoughts to strongly, and I agree that speculation is not an negative, but wouldn’t you say the ephedra hypothesis is better grounded and has less pitfalls?

It's confirmed during Zoroastrian times, together with pomegranate and rue (which interestingly have traditionally been related to Syrian rue due to the shape of their fruits), but it was considered to be a stand-in for it.

As for ephedra being the original plant, I consider it more likely than other hypotheses such as A. muscaria, but I don't think so. It has been some time since I read Haoma and Harmaline, so I don't remember in full detail why I thought it was a more convincing hypothesis. That book does consider seriously the possibility of ephedra and gives a honest look at the evidence in favor. I'll read it again at some point (the first half), and I recommend you do so if you are interested, I'm not in a position right now to do justice to its hypothesis.

I don't consider it "proves" it or anything of the sort. The hypothesis has some problems, no less the lack of any direct evidence of Syrian rue use in that context. But I consider the claim that the texts don't describe the actual effects of the plant to be an extraordinary claim that requires evidence as well: it's too easy and frequent to interpret poorly understood evidence as "religious symbolism" to make it fit whatever is convenient.

Lastly, the hypothesis that Haoma used to be a different plant is not as arbitrary as it may sound: in India, Soma rituals have used a plant that's not ephedra, a Sarcostemma. So in any case we have at least one situation where the plant used as Soma/Haoma is not the original plant.

I don't expect the question of the identity of Soma/Haoma is ever going to be satisfactorily answered, unless there is some archeological finding that offers direct evidence.

 

[TheGreenPhantom]

@Schahin92 I think this is a fascinating subject, and I'd like to encourage you to research what other plants with psychoactive properties grow in Iran and could have contributed to Haoma wine as described by your beloved poet. If those plants grew there in the past, they certainly grow there now... possibly, there's some "weed" that's been overlooked or forgotten, which contains a class of chemicals that are not known for producing entheogenic effects. A walk in the countryside might turn up some plants of interest....

 

[Prima Materia]

See this as well : Soma and Ayahuasca analogues

 

[FractAlien]

Since we're in the realm of speculation, what about acacia root? It contains DMT and was revered by Freemasons.

I recall reading somewhere that acacia root was venerated by the ancients. Combined with harmala, the magic is complete.

 

[Panpsychic]

To my knowledge, no amount of syrian rue on its own can generate that type of experience. But it certainly can when used alongside DMT. Harmalas have interesting effects on their own, but I wouldn't think of them as being even close to as revelatory as tryptamines.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Remember that in Ayahuasca it's the Harmalas, after which the brew is named, that are generally considered the most important component. While its true that on its own Rue or Caapi doesn't generally have immediate revelatory effects like DMT has, it may be a case of how it is used, ie use over a longer period vs short term to unlock its true power and potential.

It's also possible that whatever practice, technique, or substance they used was enhanced by rue, either by drinking it or inhaling its fumes.

Yes, this is the key I think. I made a thread about this here.

Thread 'Peganum Harmala and a theory on the Key to spontaneous Mystical Illumination through increased sensitivity to endogenous DMT activation'

Feb 27, 2024

This is a theory or idea that I have not come across before, I could probably write some academic paper about it but I am lazy so I will just post it here, maybe someone can take it up.

So it occurred to me based upon a post on the below forum thread about  "Consuming harmalas for 40 days and 40 nights as a spiritual practice."

A Journey with harmalas, 40 days and nights

WARNING: Don't do this, I was very sick for a long time before I got my "Feet". It was worth it but please be aware of your own body and self and limitations. Consuming any psychoactive substances for 40 days straight has risks and some people might react badly,I am NOT recommending it for...

forum.dmt-nexus.me

Some of the fascinating accounts given in that report were that:

"I recently went through a journey where I took 400 milligrams of harmala...

• Panpsychic
• Replies: 7
• Forum: Spirituality and Mysticism

Since DMT and 5-MeO-DMT are known to be endogenous, its possible that Harmalas used over a long period are the key to unlocking a natural endogenous circuit through continuous spritual practice.

Hello dear community

I am Iranian and my favorite poet is the Sufi Hafez who is a famous poet in Iran and also outside of Iran. The German Goethe wrote an entire book about him.
He is an absolutely fantastic writer and talks about God as Love and Compassion, the meaning of our existence and so many more metaphysical or lets say things related to the soul.

He constantly mentions a bitter wine that drives him and his Sufi compatriots into extasy and when they take it they see the heavens and the angels come and talk to them and give them guidance.
Within his texts he talks about becoming intoxicated by the bitter wine of Jamshid (which shows you the entire creation) and how angels come and talk to him about the meaning of life and so many other things.

Its like the center of his writing, this bitter wine appears over and over again. In Iran they use Syrian Rue seeds and burn it to get rid off bad spirits traditionally. But its supposed that Soma or Haoma is made of Syrian Rue.
Does anybody here have more ideas about what it could be exactly and what experiences can one make with a pure Syrian Rue tea in itself? Is it psychedelic in some sort?

You are almost there yes. There can be no doubt that the ancient Persians were drinking Peganum Harmala tea, there is evidence of this as far back as the ancient Iranian Jiroft civilization 5000 years ago not to mention their veneration of it to this day in sacred ritual.





And Homage to the Most High for sharing these sacred keys to commune with One

 

[Here&Now]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Remember that in Ayahuasca it's the Harmalas, after which the brew is named, that are generally considered the most important component. While its true that on its own Rue or Caapi doesn't generally have immediate revelatory effects like DMT has, it may be a case of how it is used, ie use over a longer period vs short term to unlock its true power and potential.

Sure, I could see it. Thinking back, my DMT trips took on much more of a guided quality once I started mixing in harmalas, and especially when I used caapi harmalas.

Since DMT and 5-MeO-DMT are known to be endogenous, its possible that Harmalas used over a long period are the key to unlocking a natural endogenous circuit through continuous spritual practice.

Also, I believe there are endogenous MAOIs, with pinoline being an example. Interesting stuff; perhaps MAOIs serve some kind of spiritual function we don't fully understand.

 

[Varallo]

You are almost there yes. There can be no doubt that the ancient Persians were drinking Peganum Harmala tea, there is evidence of this as far back as the ancient Iranian Jiroft civilization 5000 years ago not to mention their veneration of it to this day in sacred ritual.

Source? Because this image proves nothing. ‘There can be no doubt’ is not a conclusion drawn from evidence, but a sign that all critical standards in thinking have been abandoned. I mean how do people jump from stylized vegetation to an ancient psychoactive drink theory involving rue is beyond me and is just pure speculation.

Repeating the claim confidently does not make it true .

 

[Panpsychic]

Source? Because this image proves nothing.

Its called an exercise in 'joining the dots' which is often what historical reconstruction for very ancient sources must be. The Chlorite chalice representing Peganum Harmala is among many such archaeological findings from ancient Jiroft. Given the various other correspondences, and the veneration of Harmalas in Iran across the ages as well as the known Ayahuasca analogue with Caapi one can proceed beyond reasonable doubt in my view. Of course, if one wants to wait until one finds incontrovertible evidence from thousands of years ago one can also do.

The fact that Peganum Harmala is and was used in a sacred context is not in dispute however.

Thinking back, my DMT trips took on much more of a guided quality once I started mixing in harmalas, and especially when I used caapi harmalas.

Also, I believe there are endogenous MAOIs, with pinoline being an example. Interesting stuff; perhaps MAOIs serve some kind of spiritual function we don't fully understand.

Thats very interesting. I actually have little experience with straight DMT by itself since I have drunk the Harmala tea before smoking DMT as my method from the beginning, and one thing that continues to strike me is how guided the entire process has been. So its interesting to hear that this doesn't occur so much without the Harmalas. It reaffirms that there is an interrelationship between them and they are best done together particularly for this guidance aspect to come through much more.

 

[Varallo]

Its called an exercise in 'joining the dots' which is often what historical reconstruction for very ancient sources must be. The Chlorite chalice representing Peganum Harmala is among many such archaeological findings from ancient Jiroft. Given the various other correspondences, and the veneration of Harmalas in Iran across the ages as well as the known Ayahuasca analogue with Caapi one can proceed beyond reasonable doubt in my view. Of course, if one wants to wait until one finds incontrovertible evidence from thousands of years ago one can also do.

The fact that Peganum Harmala is and was used in a sacred context is not in dispute however.

So it’s your personal opinion, and there is no actual historical research that supports it. What you call “joining the dots” is not historical reconstruction, it’s speculation stacked on top of speculation. Starting with a conclusion and then retrofitting fragments of information until they appear to line up is not evidence-based reasoning, it’s constructing a story you would like to be true.

Then claiming “there can be no doubt” when you have no solid sources is the opposite of critical thinking, and only makes the whole argument less credible.

 

[The Sofa Traveler]

While its true that on its own Rue or Caapi doesn't generally have immediate revelatory effects like DMT has, it may be a case of how it is used, ie use over a longer period vs short term to unlock its true power and potential.

Agree with this. Harmalas are long-term beasts. One has to take time to understand them.

Thinking back, my DMT trips took on much more of a guided quality once I started mixing in harmalas

My feeling too. Once I started vaping DMT with oral harmalas, I never went back to DMT alone. To me, harmalas revealed the DMT healing potential. In comparison, DMT alone felt somewhat futile. In my head it feels like if harmalas carry the messages/insights while DMT amplifies/brings the light on them. Less chaotic, more stuff to process, more food for integration. I also often take harmalas without DMT and they clearly affect my thoughts and bring their fair share of insights.

 

[woogyboogy]

From what I've seen in my travels in India, reading anthropological field reports, and generally exposure to eastern herbalism, is that it's likely that Soma, Haoma was 1) definitely not just "one herb", but an alchemical preparation of multiple herbs, and 2) likely not just one way of preparing, but something that had different clan/family/tradition recipes, with likely partially overlaying core ingredients.

In regards to 1) there is likely a very specific way of preparing the formula(s), that involves processing multiple herbs in a process of fermentation (there might be some variations without that, but very very likely some with fermentation), in effect changing their inherent qualities. There is also reason to assume that Datura is one of the main psychoactive ingredients in at least some of the traditional Soma variations.