What's the current "best" choice for growing your own ethnogens?

[OG Old Guy]

Since I'm safely contained in the Newbie Corral, I'm going to ask some newbie questions.

I've spent hours looking through the various forums and I've searched the subject with "no search results found" being the only response. And honestly, sometimes the sheer volume of information here can be a bit overwhelming. And most of the relevant threads seemed to end around 2015 and there's no recent info.

I'd like to find a plant or 2 that could be an ongoing source of raw materials for extractions or brews that would be fairly simple for someone starting out.

Some of the trees seem promising, but root harvesting is dirty, difficult work. I thought that perhaps a leaf source for alkaloids might be the most practical. Even if the concentrations are lower, it would be far easier to raise and harvest.

I also was interested in cloning plants (I'm fairly handy in that department already).
My idea was that if the plants grew fast enough, you could raise a few clones in pots on your apartment patio if you didn't have much room.
Or you might raise a few plants and then plant them outside guerilla style- either is a nearby field, or slip them into some local landscaping. 8)

Ideally, the goal would probably be to find something that could be grown inside, and either topped or maybe scrogged to produce more branches and/or leaves.
Has anyone done small clones inside under lights - maybe in a hydro system?

Just curious if anyone is interested in this or if it's practical.

A few named varieties that you guys think are promising would be a big help.

I looked and looked, but I'm afraid I may be more confused than when I started...:?:
Thanks in advance.

 

[Jagube]

You may want to read up on Psychotria DW02 if you haven't already.

I don't have experience with it, but I've procured leaf cuttings and I'm going to give it a try. From the reports over at Herbalistics, it sounds like a plant that could be grown relatively easily as a potted house plant and produce usable amounts of leaf reasonably quickly, while being tea-ready at the same time (i.e. no need to extract).

 

[Vorbis]

If you are looking for an entheogen that can be easily grown at home then don’t overlook the humble mushroom. Psilocybe cubensis is surprisingly simple to cultivate and is a reliable source of tryptamine goodness :thumb_up:

I do like the idea of extracting from homegrown psychotria though...Good luck if you decide to go for it!

 

[Wolfnippletip]

Cactus is good if you have enough sunlight for it (even an apartment might have a South facing window). If you don't have lots of sunshine available then a relatively modest investment in LED lights can give good results, and mescaline is an incredible substance, low, medium or high dose. Once you get past the "Gotta get the mescaline" stage you might find you are addicted to cactus growing in general.

Good cactus is readily available, most places and there's lots of cactus enthusiasts here at the Nexus to walk you through it so you don't make rookie mistakes.

 

[Grey Fox]

P. cubensis mushrooms and Trichocereus cacti are the 2 best psychedelics to grow at home IMO. If you're in a more cold weather or humid climate then mushrooms are probably the better choice. If you're in a more warm weather or dry climate then Trichocereus cacti are probably the better choice. The nice thing about cacti is that once they get established then they grow on their own with little additional care, and they can outlive us all. Mushrooms are more of a short term project that requires greater input/effort. But the nice thing is that in a relatively short time you get a lot of mushrooms. Again, if it was me, I would choose based on climate (and in fact I did!). But really either option is very acheivable in any climate if you put in the work.

And Wolf is right that once you start growing cacti it becomes a very enjoyable hobby in its own right.

 

[OG Old Guy]

If you are looking for an entheogen that can be easily grown at home then don’t overlook the humble mushroom. Psilocybe cubensis is surprisingly simple to cultivate and is a reliable source of tryptamine goodness :thumb_up:

I do like the idea of extracting from homegrown psychotria though...Good luck if you decide to go for it!

Been there, got the Tshirt. :thumb_up:

I find fungi to be absolutely fascinating. That's probably the major impetus behind my new-found love of science.

It lead me to everything from algae for biofuels and plastics, to neuroscience and even religion/spirituality and to some extent even archaeology...(Graham Hancock anyone??)

Terrance McKenna called it "The People's Psychedelic" and I wholeheartedly agree!

 

[OG Old Guy]

You may want to read up on Psychotria DW02 if you haven't already.

I don't have experience with it, but I've procured leaf cuttings and I'm going to give it a try. From the reports over at Herbalistics, it sounds like a plant that could be grown relatively easily as a potted house plant and produce usable amounts of leaf reasonably quickly, while being tea-ready at the same time (i.e. no need to extract).

Awesome!

That certainly looks interesting, and it seems to fit the bill pretty well.
I like that it's nondescript, grows from cuttings and is easily extractable.

Great info, looks like I have some new research to do.
Thanks! :thumb_up:

 

[OG Old Guy]

Cactus is good if you have enough sunlight for it (even an apartment might have a South facing window). If you don't have lots of sunshine available then a relatively modest investment in LED lights can give good results, and mescaline is an incredible substance, low, medium or high dose. Once you get past the "Gotta get the mescaline" stage you might find you are addicted to cactus growing in general.

Good cactus is readily available, most places and there's lots of cactus enthusiasts here at the Nexus to walk you through it so you don't make rookie mistakes.

I have sooo much cactus growing on the back porch that I can't remember them all ( and some of my labels have faded... I just took 3 big cutting of at least 12 inches each and I'm not sure what to do with them. They're good genetics, so some will likely be bioassayed and some will be sold or re-homed.

My issues with cactus are:
1) a wide variance in the alkaloid content. With cubensis mushrooms dosage is pretty easy to regulate.

2)It takes a year or 2 to get a usable amount (12 inches,and then you don't know what you have- dynamite or a dud...

3) There seemed to be no conciseness among devotees about the best extraction. I saw the 1 tek here mentions boiling for 4-5 hours, but I've seen everything up to 'traditional' methods that boiled for 24 hours. There has been some recent testing that showed the alkoloid percentages from different varieties, but it's hard to keep the varieties straight because people keep renaminging them to sell. I'd like to do some legit DNA testing and alkoloid testing via mass spectrometer or GS, but it gets expensive when you want to do tests on 10 different varieties. Maybe I should do a Go Fund Me???
(and the Instant Pot or Pressure cooker route could be interesting...
and I need to find a way to do better testing. Either reagents or lab work)

4) The current testing has identified 2 or 3 candidates for high alkoloid content Might have been one of Trout's studies). I have a single cutting of 1 of them that has grown out quite well and doubled in size in the last year, but they tend to be a bit spendy. I'm studying micro-propagation techniques so that when we find a really good variety, it will be easier and less expensive to share it. And some of the others sold for $500 a cutting. (That's not a typo!) There's an interesting book called Plants From Testtubes that seems to be one of the best sources of information on the micro-propagation techniques.

I wish I could find 5 or 10 people that would be willing to do the extractions and bioassays for me. It would take me a year to do that by myself. I do have some mycology friends that might be interested... but it's hard to organize hippies into a decent study group.

 

[OG Old Guy]

P. cubensis mushrooms and Trichocereus cacti are the 2 best psychedelics to grow at home IMO. If you're in a more cold weather or humid climate then mushrooms are probably the better choice. If you're in a more warm weather or dry climate then Trichocereus cacti are probably the better choice. The nice thing about cacti is that once they get established then they grow on their own with little additional care, and they can outlive us all. Mushrooms are more of a short term project that requires greater input/effort. But the nice thing is that in a relatively short time you get a lot of mushrooms. Again, if it was me, I would choose based on climate (and in fact I did!). But really either option is very acheivable in any climate if you put in the work.

And Wolf is right that once you start growing cacti it becomes a very enjoyable hobby in its own right.

"PSSST - hey man...wanna buy a cutting???" (<<<just lame humor, not an attempt at sales!)
To be honest I wish I had planted a cactus garden when I was a lot younger. It's easy(ish) to grow one you know what you're doing, and it can hide in plain sight until you need it.
I would definitely encourage people to plant cactus gardens. There are some groups on bookface that will sell or trade small seedlings to help you get started inexpensively.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Graham Hancock anyone??

Randall Carlson?

 

[Grey Fox]

OG Old Guy how long have you been growing those cacti for? Its surprising to hear that you have numerous trichocereus cacti but are still looking for something else as your main diy psychedelic to grow.

I think that the questions you raise in your post to Wolf are things that become clearer over time as you become familiar with the cacti in your collection and gain experience making tea (or performing some other extraction method). Don't get too caught up in the hype of named clones and supposed mescaline levels. When it comes down to it, all Bridgesii are active. The emerging evidence from online reports is starting to look like all Scopulicola are active too. And most Pachanoi are active. If you concentrate on growing cuttings of known active specimens then you really cant go wrong. And making the tea is easy. After you do it a few times you'll find a method that makes sense to you and works and you'll be all set.

But really, when it comes down to it, Trichocereus cacti are the only fast growing, potent source for mescaline. And mescaline really is a different beast from the tryptamines. It is just as fully psychedelic as the tryptamines. But it is more body-centered and euphoric. It lasts longer. And there seems to be a residual impact from mescaline trips that goes beyond other psychedelics; that is to say, the cacti just seem to keep working on you long after the "trip" ends.

 

[OG Old Guy]

OG Old Guy how long have you been growing those cacti for? Its surprising to hear that you have numerous trichocereus cacti but are still looking for something else as your main diy psychedelic to grow.

I think that the questions you raise in your post to Wolf are things that become clearer over time as you become familiar with the cacti in your collection and gain experience making tea (or performing some other extraction method). Don't get too caught up in the hype of named clones and supposed mescaline levels. When it comes down to it, all Bridgesii are active. The emerging evidence from online reports is starting to look like all Scopulicola are active too. And most Pachanoi are active. If you concentrate on growing cuttings of known active specimens then you really cant go wrong. And making the tea is easy. After you do it a few times you'll find a method that makes sense to you and works and you'll be all set.

But really, when it comes down to it, Trichocereus cacti are the only fast growing, potent source for mescaline. And mescaline really is a different beast from the tryptamines. It is just as fully psychedelic as the tryptamines. But it is more body-centered and euphoric. It lasts longer. And there seems to be a residual impact from mescaline trips that goes beyond other psychedelics; that is to say, the cacti just seem to keep working on you long after the "trip" ends.

Hi Grey, This my 2nd full year of growing. I'm a little on the OCD side, so I "worry" about putting all the effort into growing and then preparing the cactus for consumption, only to have it turn out to be an underwhelming experience. The cactus has appeal beyond just the alkaloids, some of my specimens came from old seed stock that was probably harvested50-70 years ago and I sort of feels a "duty" to keep the strains going so they can be studied further. And I have at least 1 strain that in now thought to be extinct in it's native Peru. Eaten by goats- there's even a specific term for that! :surprised
It probably sounds silly, but I work with the cactus as sort of 'community service' that I hope will benefit other people even long after I'm gone.
I'm also using it to learn more about propagation methods since peyote only grows naturally in a tiny area of the globe and is headed toward extinction, or at least reaching a critical low point where there won't be enough of a supply for the native American Church to be able to harvest enough for their sacramental use. (Which also begs the question- if that happens would the Indians switch to Trichos?? They'd need some decent, reliable strains for their members. I don't know of anyone that's working on that- although I imagine Trout has some irons in the fire...but he also just retired)
And I see interested people asking the same question over and over - "which strain is good to use?" So I'm hoping to be able to help find and replicate a few of the better strains. Sort of akin to the beginnings of the named strains of cannabis.

To be perfectly honest, most of the DMT cultivation is so that other people can have a sustainable supply. I've never done DMT, but I'd like to, so I figured I'd just overcomplicate it:lol: and turn it into a research project instead of just doing it for myself.

I'm eager to try the cactus though, and I owe it to myself and the cactus to give it a try.
I have 2 years of time and a lot of expense in just the labor, pots, fertilizers and planting mixes invested so far, I just want to make sure my first experience isn't 'disappointing' if you know what I mean. And it seems hard to get a uniform dose- that's one of my bigger issues.

Aaaand I just started 100+ seeds form 3 or 4 new strains... I think I'm addicted to growing cactus.

And that's why I'm here, so soak up the knowledge and experience of the people who have done it already.

(Thanks for reading this run-on post... I'll have printed copies available in the lobby.):lol:

 

[Grey Fox]

Please share how it goes when you get a chance to try some cactus. I'd like to hear your impressions.

I understand not wanting to chop up your plants and then be dissappointed by the experience. In fact the first 2 times I tried San Pedro it was with the PC clone and I must not have used enough or brewed the tea that well because those 2 experiences were very weak and it was about 3 years before I tried cactus again because I didnt think it had much to offer.

The main thing with cactus is to use high quality cuttings for the tea. You want cuttings from strongly active plants. You want to use the fattest, healthiest cuttings available, from the biggest plants that you have. If you have Scopulicola or a fat non-pc Pachanoi, that makes a real nice foundation for the tea. If you add in some Bridgesii, then it takes the tea to the next level. Elbow to wrist for the Scop or Pach piece. Wrist to fingertips for the Bridge piece. You wont be dissappointed. In fact you may find that half that much is plenty strong if your cactus is fat and mature.

Pull out any long spines with pliers. Dont peel or core the cutting; use the whole cutting except for long spines. Slice the cactus up into very thin pieces (1/8 inch) and gently boil it 12+ hours in a big pot of water with the juice from a lime. Reduce it down to a drinkable amount (approx. 12 ounces or so) and you are all set.

 

[coAsTal]

OG, welcome to the Nexus-- it's good to have you here.

You may wish to look at the Pete666 and Wakinyan authored threads on grafting as well-- I have promoted your member status and hopefully others in this thread will as well so you can gain full access to the forums.
You can dramatically (and EASILY) accelerate growth from seedling stage by grafting, and it sounds like your 2 year efforts have provided you with a great deal of base stock to use this way. This works for all tricho babies and also lopophora. You can have adult flowering lophs within 2 years from seed as well-- that 10 year talk is completely false. (I can't buy those in my area of the world, but I'm more than happy with trichs!)

I, too, have fallen in love with cactus growing like my friend GF and others here-- it truly is a lifetime pursuit with lifetime rewards.

And to echo GF, don't get too hung up on waiting for "the perfect strain"-- in a way it's maybe more of a nerdy pursuit than a vital one. We are fanboys of cactus, so of course we all want powerful, renowned plants-- but I am more interested in exploring and learning as I grow, just for my own personal love of the craft. Just take great care of the ones you have, and don't be afraid to use them-- remember that they will regrow pups and continue to thrive so long as the base has good roots and you leave 6+ inches above the ground.

One other element is that darking your cuts before processing them is very commonly expected to increase alk content-- keep them in a dark box somewhere for a month or more before you boil them down -- that's all it takes by many accounts to maximize the plant biology to your advantage.

As far as the extraction method, I don't bother -- I just cut the green tissue in long rods, slice that in 1/8" pieces, and boil-- longer is probably better, but don't feel like it's some obscure process-- it's about surface area and allowing enough water (with a dash of vinegar) to reach the cells.

I then pour out the water into a large jar, let it settle for several days in the fridge, then pour off the liquid leaving the sediment in the vessel-- reduce that liquid to a couple hundred ml, add very strong freshly-brewed coffee, and often also Mexican Tarragon tea as well-- and it tastes GOOD!

So easy!

 

[islander20]

You may want to read up on Psychotria DW02 if you haven't already.

I don't have experience with it, but I've procured leaf cuttings and I'm going to give it a try. From the reports over at Herbalistics, it sounds like a plant that could be grown relatively easily as a potted house plant and produce usable amounts of leaf reasonably quickly, while being tea-ready at the same time (i.e. no need to extract).

Very cool, their site appears to be down. As an avid plant collector I am itching to add Psychotria to my garden. I am a loooong way (PNW) from its natural habitat but I think I can pull it off. I am only looking to produce 1g of DMT a year, this seems feasible with Psychotria. Another thread even stated that herbalistic will send leaves internationally to propagate?

 

[Emb]

I totally agree with the mushroom pick !

Sophia grow them easily in her flat, you can create a closed "biome" to control humidity and temperature.

Extraction is also quite easy (if you don't like munching them), she tried the cold extraction (icecube just pull out the blue juice) and with alcohool, that doesn't require any chemist skills.

...And boy...hyperspace is at your door !

 

[OG Old Guy]

Please share how it goes when you get a chance to try some cactus. I'd like to hear your impressions.

I understand not wanting to chop up your plants and then be dissappointed by the experience. In fact the first 2 times I tried San Pedro it was with the PC clone and I must not have used enough or brewed the tea that well because those 2 experiences were very weak and it was about 3 years before I tried cactus again because I didnt think it had much to offer.

The main thing with cactus is to use high quality cuttings for the tea. You want cuttings from strongly active plants. You want to use the fattest, healthiest cuttings available, from the biggest plants that you have. If you have Scopulicola or a fat non-pc Pachanoi, that makes a real nice foundation for the tea. If you add in some Bridgesii, then it takes the tea to the next level. Elbow to wrist for the Scop or Pach piece. Wrist to fingertips for the Bridge piece. You wont be dissappointed. In fact you may find that half that much is plenty strong if your cactus is fat and mature.

Pull out any long spines with pliers. Dont peel or core the cutting; use the whole cutting except for long spines. Slice the cactus up into very thin pieces (1/8 inch) and gently boil it 12+ hours in a big pot of water with the juice from a lime. Reduce it down to a drinkable amount (approx. 12 ounces or so) and you are all set.

Hi Grey, BTW, I read your trip report and honestly found it a wee bit intimidating,,, I don't know that I;m quite ready for that level of experience quite yet.

I really can't imagine going for 12 or 14 hours. I have a hard enough time finding 4 good hours for a shroom experience. Ironically, I think the main drawback (for me at least,) is the short duration of the shroom experience. I have had really good luck with redosing to prolong the experience. I;ve found that by doubling the dose even 90 minutes or so, i can stretch it out for a good 6+ hours. I'd really recommend preweighing all the re-doses BEFORE you start your journey as the math can be a bit confusing during the experience.:? I've had good luck with orange juice and mushroom smoothies and also with an alcohol concentrate.
For example start with a 3 G dose, then the next dose is about 7 grams and then the 3rd dose would be 14 grams - but like I said, that's MUCH easier with a concentrated alcohol concentrate. I used Everclear 190 proof and the did a low temp reduction and aim for 1 ML of solution = I grams of dried just to keep the math simple. That's MUCH easier than eating a full ounce of dried shrooms! (tea should also work well, but I haven't tried that yet- last time I made tea with a small dose and then ate some dried material 90 minutes later and was very pleased with how it went.

With the cactus, I'm tempted to follow Shulgin's advice, and start with a very low dose that doesn't produce any dramatic effects, and then working up from there. So I'm not sure if it would be better to make a tea and keep it in the fridge between doses, or making some dried skin/chips and then adjusting the dose as I go.
Can you tell me if the dosage has any relation to the duration of the effects?? I really can't fathom what to do for 10-14 hours.
And than you so much for sharing your wisdom and experience. :thumb_up:

Ever tried it in an Instant Pot?

 

[OG Old Guy]

OG, welcome to the Nexus-- it's good to have you here.

You may wish to look at the Pete666 and Wakinyan authored threads on grafting as well-- I have promoted your member status and hopefully others in this thread will as well so you can gain full access to the forums.
You can dramatically (and EASILY) accelerate growth from seedling stage by grafting, and it sounds like your 2 year efforts have provided you with a great deal of base stock to use this way. This works for all tricho babies and also lopophora. You can have adult flowering lophs within 2 years from seed as well-- that 10 year talk is completely false. (I can't buy those in my area of the world, but I'm more than happy with trichs!)

I, too, have fallen in love with cactus growing like my friend GF and others here-- it truly is a lifetime pursuit with lifetime rewards.

And to echo GF, don't get too hung up on waiting for "the perfect strain"-- in a way it's maybe more of a nerdy pursuit than a vital one. We are fanboys of cactus, so of course we all want powerful, renowned plants-- but I am more interested in exploring and learning as I grow, just for my own personal love of the craft. Just take great care of the ones you have, and don't be afraid to use them-- remember that they will regrow pups and continue to thrive so long as the base has good roots and you leave 6+ inches above the ground.

One other element is that darking your cuts before processing them is very commonly expected to increase alk content-- keep them in a dark box somewhere for a month or more before you boil them down -- that's all it takes by many accounts to maximize the plant biology to your advantage.

As far as the extraction method, I don't bother -- I just cut the green tissue in long rods, slice that in 1/8" pieces, and boil-- longer is probably better, but don't feel like it's some obscure process-- it's about surface area and allowing enough water (with a dash of vinegar) to reach the cells.

I then pour out the water into a large jar, let it settle for several days in the fridge, then pour off the liquid leaving the sediment in the vessel-- reduce that liquid to a couple hundred ml, add very strong freshly-brewed coffee, and often also Mexican Tarragon tea as well-- and it tastes GOOD!

So easy!

Firstly thank you for your kindness and vote of confidence.
One of my concerns is also the possibility of having to choke down 12 ounces of cactus tea- most people seem to report a less than favorable taste. Nut I do love coffee, so if I can get something approaching that it would be fantastic. I've already discovered the joys of making the so-called 'bulletproof coffee' worth good cannabutter and a bit of coconut oil.
I highly recommend it! :d

I've heard that leaving the cutting in the dark can increase potency, but it all seems rather anecdotal so far. Same with the 'rumor' that cold weather increases the alkaloid content. I have plenty of material to test, just not enough time.
I wish the lab testing wasn't so expensive, as I'd love to do some valid and repeatable research on this subject. I'm not sure if the reagent tests would be accurate enough for this- can you give me any insight on that?

 

[coAsTal]

One of my concerns is also the possibility of having to choke down 12 ounces of cactus tea- most people seem to report a less than favorable taste. But I do love coffee, so if I can get something approaching that it would be fantastic.

You can reduce the tea down to a few oz if you like-- the key in my experience is to boil on low heat for a long time, laving the lid on-- the steam will seep out slowly, and the brew stays wet-- by that I mean there is no sediment/goo that builds up on the edges of the pot when it's open to the air that seems to make the end product slimier. When you keep the lid on, this effect is minimized, and reduction is far more effective-- some people evap all the way down to a tar and swallow it like pills, too-- but I just add coffee and Mex. Tarragon and it tastes fine.

I've heard that leaving the cutting in the dark can increase potency, but it all seems rather anecdotal so far. Same with the 'rumor' that cold weather increases the alkaloid content. I have plenty of material to test, just not enough time.

I'd say at this stage that (whatever the actual mechanism) the "darking" method has moved past the anecdotal phase-- it's largely reported to be effective-- not sure on the cold, but the dark is worth the time by most accounts.

I wish the lab testing wasn't so expensive, as I'd love to do some valid and repeatable research on this subject. I'm not sure if the reagent tests would be accurate enough for this- can you give me any insight on that?

There are several prolific Nexians that actively work in the lab/chemistry industry-- and there are a bunch of threads that you can find here that discuss that specifically, but I'm not one of those experts myself--

 

[dreamer042]

can you give me any insight on that?

Here is the work already done regarding cacti:
The Cactus Analysis Thread

If you can prepare samples for laboratory analysis, we can arrange to have them run for free.
Free lab test for your (garden or local) plants !!! Interested??