whats up with bufotenine?

[burnt]

SWIM has experienced nothing but boring results from bufotenin. The material is pure according to HPLC and GC analysis (the only impurity is a trace amount of dmt). The material has been ingested with dmt, alcohol, harmaloids. These combinations tend to result in a decrease of side effects (the constrictive feeling one gets after initial inhalation) but not much else. The material was been consumed in upwards of 20-30mg range via inhalation.

So what is up with bufotenine? Some users report excellent results other consistently report headaches stomachaches and little to no visual activity.

We've been speculating for some time now that these differences may be the result of different seed batches containing different levels of bufotenine n oxide. But is this truly the case? If so how can we prove or disprove it?

Some members have been investigating zinc reduction of crude material. How has this faired?

So far SWIM has searched via LC-MS, HPLC, and GC-MS to try and observe the n oxide but has so far failed to see any evidence. GC it won't be observable because of thermal degradation but then how likely is it that the compound survives heating when one smokes it? Maybe heating seeds is destroying the n oxide and thats why most extraction teks have a heating step? Using LC-MS one should see the buf + Oxygen peak but again perhaps its degraded? SWIM wants to imagine more experiments like this but that will have to wait. HPLC with UV detection only reveals one compound but perhaps they are overlapping and need to be resolved better? Although the peak looks pure. Would n oxides change UV properties of a parent alkaloid?

Perhaps a simple method such as TLC can resolve these two compounds?

SWIM can't find any old literature on the presence of n oxides and its starting to make SWIM skeptical that they even exist in these seeds. Maybe bufotenine is just a shitty drug for some people and a good drug for others?

The only way SWIM can think of to really make the chromatography trust worthy is to prepare bufotenine n oxide from the parent alkaloid. How can one go about doing this? Throw it in some peroxide? Any ideas?

 

[ibeing897]

Cool stuff burnt, I don't know if I can help at all, something I have observed with the pure extracts is that they slowly melt over time, and change color quite rapidly if left in a jar it will start white, melt into a yellow sugar type thing and eventually flecks of brown with appear and eventually it will be quite brown... I'm guessing this oxidation, but I couldn't say whether it's been converted because the effects for me have been quite consistent.

SWIM's been smoking some pure bufo extract with harmalas this week and I think I know it now, but I don't get OEV or CEV, I get a slight discoloration of yellows, greens and purples, quite a strong body load if I smoke enough very like psilocybin but not the same, and then a kind of dozy drunkenness, and a very peculiar headspace, sometimes naseau but I can hold it down, really quite toxic feeling on the onset but it passes quickly, I think it's an interesting substance, will mix it with other things later... but I don't experience any kind of fantastic visuals or even feelings, it's a bit boring and odd to be frank. I have smoked it on mushrooms and that was interesting, the visuals all of sudden took on more reality, producing images rather than shapes and it feels like the body load morphed into a completely different one.

 

[burnt]

SWIM's been smoking some pure bufo extract with harmalas this week and I think I know it now, but I don't get OEV or CEV, I get a slight discoloration of yellows, greens and purples, quite a strong body load if I smoke enough very like psilocybin but not the same, and then a kind of dozy drunkenness, and a very peculiar headspace, sometimes naseau but I can hold it down, really quite toxic feeling on the onset but it passes quickly, I think it's an interesting substance, will mix it with other things later...

This is basically the extent of effects SWIM has observed.

Note also this is good thread to discuss experiences with bufotenine and different preparations. Its all clues and evidence we need.

 

[jamie]

I dont think this has anything to do with oxides..

What is youre set and setting..are you smoking it in a completely dark room, and then laying down right away and getting as relaxed as possible into it, with closed eyes?

It's not like DMT and psilocin, with bufotenine you have to learn to open to the visions..once that happends it like suddenly the most visionary tryptamine..but if oyu dont it's just sort of blobs of color..dont know why.

The nausea can put you off as well before you have gotten a visionary dose in you I find at times..so you need to keep smoking past the nausea..most of the time its not like that for me anymore..but at times it is.

 

[soulfood]

I got some very clear but not intricate CEV's with my purest extract so far. With less pure extract I have got more detailed and "inteligent" CEV's and mild striping of OEV.

I definately here what Fractal Enchantment is talking about. Last night I tried smoking the relatively pure stuff and got what I though were mild entry level CEV's which tailed off to nothing, so I checked my emails and went to bed. After 5 mintues of trying to sleep, not concertrating on anything I got some stronger CEV's. Once again not visions, but definately clearer than what I got before.

Anyway I'm going to try again tonight, but this time I've made a herb blend with 200mg white caapi, 60mg bufotenine and enough damiana to make up the weight to a cigarette size substantial enough. I'm hoping this will work quite nicely as I think what's put me off getting a large enough dose in that past has been the harshness of the raw vapor, which I've been cooling by keeping the smoke contained in a bong for 30 seconds, then ripping, but that never seems as effective as taking the harsh hits.

Anyway best of luck to me

 

[Infundibulum]

Burnt, SWIM get similar results from bufo as SWIY. There seems to be great individual variation to bufo effects. Some get amazing results and some very boring.

Bufotenine has totally failed to amaze SWIM. It may even be the most uninteresting and boring psychedelic around. SWIM made a poll some time ago trying to get people's opinion on the effects of bufotenine; please feel free to input!

 

[The Traveler]

Another idea:

Maybe the bufo only works great when it is used together with another substance? burnt states that only trace amounts of DMT were found in his extract but what if the extractions from other people have more DMT in it to a level where it maybe works together with the bufo to create the famous visions?

I would like to ask the people where the bufotenine works on to be so kind to post how they did the extraction and with what other substances (also the herbs used for the changa!) they use it.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[jamie]

well I toast mine so that shoudl eliminate any DMT or 5meo..

But I always make changa with my bufotenine using caapi extract.

 

[69ron]

SWIM has some that could not possibly contain anything else. His friend had it tested (he has a real lab at work) and it is at least 99.9% pure. A little xylene showed up, but nothing else.

It shows up as psilocin with the test used (apparently it can't tell the difference between psilocin and bufotenine).

Anyway, SWIM's produces fantastic visuals with as little as 6 mg. 10 mg produces intense CEVs. 30 mg is beyond anything SWIM can describe. It is utterly amazing.

SWIM has given it to others, and some people do not get visual effects from it.

The visions from bufotenine are not forceful, and SWIM can at will turn them off. So I think personal mind set is very important. If you are not in the right mind set, visions do not happen. You have to go with the flow of the visions, are you don’t get them, even at very high doses.

The fact that SWIM can turn the visuals off at will, even at super high doses, means these effects are partially the individual's creation.

I think bufotenine puts you in a state of mind that allows visions to occur, and you have to make an effort to see them, or learn how to not block them.

You need to relax your mind, and let the visions flow. If SWIM is busy doing something, the visions do not happen.

Also, smoking technique is important. SWIM uses a test tube and a candle flame to vaporize it and gets great results with that. Possibly most people are burning the bufotenine and that might explain their unimpressive effects. I’m not sure.

 

[T]

SWIM was one who tried a zinc reduction on a black oily looking freebase he got back from the FASA salting, but it didn't change the physical appearance a bit. I don't know if that means that there was no oxide present or zinc is not a strong enough agent to deoxidise bufotenine, a chemist could help here. Might worth to give it a go with aluminium than...
If the alkaloid is not bufotenine than it would be interesting to know what it is. SWIM so far seems to be very unlucky with his seeds, they allways yield an oily looking tar. It forms a salt with fumaric acid and precips out of acetone, so I can only assume that it is an alkaloid heavily contaminating the bufotenine in the yield if there's any in the first place.

 

[reflexion]

i remember a member by the name of corky, who also posted at the nook. he stated that he had to press against his closed eyelids to enhance, or bring out, the visions. i've read other reports of bufo's visual effects being 'smokey', grey/dark, and not colorful like dmt. i have no first hand experience

 

[soulfood]

What I get from bufotenine are probably the most vibrant in terms of colour and rapid movement, but not at all immerseful.

 

[burnt]

SWIM has pretty much only used this substance in the most comfortable and relaxing of settings (at home with music candles relaxing alone mostly). So setting is basically perfect.

Anyway thanks for all your input this is helpful.

It shows up as psilocin with the test used (apparently it can't tell the difference between psilocin and bufotenine).

This makes a lot of sense their mass is the same.

Also, smoking technique is important. SWIM uses a test tube and a candle flame to vaporize it and gets great results with that.

SWIM uses a similar technique a glass tube basically. SWIM has noticed that timing is important. If its too much too fast SWIM gets too sick to want more if its too little too slow the effects are too mild. If its somewhere in between the effects are like a low dose of mushrooms but nothing too impressive.

burnt states that only trace amounts of DMT were found in his extract but what if the extractions from other people have more DMT in it to a level where it maybe works together with the bufo to create the famous visions?

Its possible but SWIM thinks its unlikely. The levels reported in literature always seem to be low (unsure about this however!). So far however SWIM has only looked at one batch but SWIM will examine another one in the near future and see if these levels vary. But SWIM agrees that preparation methods and other substances used in combination may explain why some users report better effects then others.

Anyway best of luck to me Smile

Good luck let us know!

I dont think this has anything to do with oxides..

SWIM is also starting to think this may be the case. Some deeper analytical work needs to be done to determine if the material is infact only bufotenine and not a mixture with n oxides. But still it seems as it individual variation and set/setting plus combinations with other substances is what makes bufotenine more powerful to some users as opposed to others. That alone is very interesting and SWIM wonders what could cause such individual variation?

 

[soulfood]

Anyway best of luck to me Smile

Good luck let us know!

Well... As I've been nearly 3 months without smoking as a habit, I'm officially out of training. We'll call that point 1.

Point 2 would be shortly after just one inhalation I got the most uncomfortable head prickling than ever. With the caapi in the mix, I was actually expecting the opposite.

Anyway I smoked about half of it, then felt so rough that I had to stop and only had the slightest CEV's but a slight euphoria I'd credit to the caapi. I did notice a few soft patterns with OEV's that I haven't seen before. I'm used to seeing grid like patterns like lasers imposed over my vision, but these were actually in surfaces, though they were motionless.

I think if I want to work with this I'm going to need a different delivery method. But it's a touch off putting that those initial side effects are so uncomfortable. If anything they seem to get worse everytime. The biggest problem is a combo of how long I have to hold it in, as it's so harsh I find myself holding my throat shut tight, with my nostrils closed and my tongue pushed up as hard against the back of my mouth as I can, but still spasming with coughs. There's no other substance I know of that makes me feel such a sensation. A test tube seems to be the only way with this.

I suppose if it was easier to come by seeds that were much richer in bufotenine I may try insuflating, but this one my have to go on the back burner for a while. I think when I first heard about it I was very intrigued and made many attempt to get it right, but the fact is it's now not something I think I'm missing out on, as there are other substances I much prefer that do the job just fine.

Maybe later

 

[Entropymancer]

Strange that you aren't getting visionary effects...

I don't know how you haven't found reports of bufotenine oxide in the literature... reports of it go back at least as far as 1955 with Fish, Johnson, and Horning's paper. I know its mentioned in other papers, but I'm on my phone so tracking down all the references would be tricky right now.

You're right though, roasting the seeds should eliminate any of the oxide, so it could only play a significant role if a person uses untoasted seeds.

 

[69ron]

Maybe people aren’t holding the vapor in long enough?

Low doses of bufotenine are just like those people keep reported as “unimpressive even at high doses”.

I’m somewhat inclined to believe this is dose related. Certain people just require more than other people.

Strong prickling starts for SWIM at around 5 mg. But a good visionary dose is not had until twice that is used. For deep effects, you need at least 4 times the dose required to induce strong prickling effects.

The prickling sensation is unpleasant, but part of the experience even at low unimpressive doses. It’s alarming to some, and I think most people don’t want to try a higher dose because of it, and just assume their dose was “a large dose” when in fact it was an extremely low dose for them.

Find the dose that causes strong prickling, then increase the dose 4 times, but wait at least a few days before doing it again because tolerance build up is a real issue with bufotenine. You should not smoke it more than once every 3 days (unless used with an MAOI) or the effects will be very unimpressive. It seems to show cross tolerance with LSA, mescaline, ayahuasca, and several other hallucinogens SWIM has used so make sure you try it after being clean for a few days.

 

[jamie]

If your not getting those visionary effects I can understand people finding it boring..its not all hilarous and full of ideas in the way that psilocin is..I was thinking about this yesterday after I took the mushrooms..it's not a joker..

Bufotenine is VERY visionary though..and for me alot of the ideas I get with bufotenine come along with the visions..

I have noticed one thing though due to my repeated use of bufotenine over the past 6-8 months..it has sort of trained me to be 100% confortable in the visionary realm..like i notice when i drink ayahuasca now, or especially yesterday with the mushrooms..the visual effects i am more open to and less apt to fear away or shield myself from..

I used to take alot of mushrooms, and already had deep visions..but anyone whos taken them alot will know how you can get to that point with mushroom where your body is liek twitching and shaking and doing all these weird contortions, lots of energy flowing through you, while having deep visions at the same time..and I used to sort of fight the visions at that stage a bit becasue i couldnt relax my body enough, DMT can be like this as well..but I am noticing now that I just feel fine and at home with the visions of other tryptamines..

So in a way its like bufotenine came into my life as a teacher, after i had already worked alot with mushrooms and DMT, and a bit with ayahuasca, to help me better apply my focus on the visions available through the tryptamines..

 

[soulfood]

Ok, so I smoked the other half of that bufo changa joint I rolled, this time taking much smaller inhalations, but counting very slowly to 10 each time and then exhaling. There was still no visionary state but I had possibly my strongest visuals yet. The first noticable CEV's were like many strands of long black hair blowing in the wind in front of me with loads of gooey eyes and fingers dripping around behind it. There was also some very 3D snow like effect like little white marbles bouncing all over my vision. Then there appeared to be another set, or a different phase 20-30 minutes in, where with open eyes I could see almost like random pixels of colour coming toward me like going down an electronically charged tunnel, sometimes with little bolts of lightning coming out of the sides.

This was also the first time I have felt the nausea that folk have been talking about.

I think if I had of smoked the whole joint in one go using the same technique it could have been quite interesting, though I'm still not a fan of dosing with this stuff. Even with smoking straight DMT there's a certain pleasure in it for me, as I become acustomed to the taste and the feel of the onset and the ease with which it vapes. Bufotenine to me is the smoking equivalent of dried cereal

Anyway I think my interests have been peaked enough to give this another go pretty soon. Though I think next time I'm going to have to give more careful consideration to the choice of herbs. Obviously I want the MAOI in there as it definately makes the spaced dosing easier, but rather than shredded vine I may do a small extract onto some smoother leaf.

 

[burnt]

Maybe people aren’t holding the vapor in long enough?

Low doses of bufotenine are just like those people keep reported as “unimpressive even at high doses”.

I’m somewhat inclined to believe this is dose related. Certain people just require more than other people.

Very possible.

I don't know how you haven't found reports of bufotenine oxide in the literature... reports of it go back at least as far as 1955 with Fish, Johnson, and Horning's paper. I know its mentioned in other papers, but I'm on my phone so tracking down all the references would be tricky right now.

I finally found these papers! I kept searching bufotenine n-oxide which would never show any hits but bufotenine oxide showed those papers right away. Ooops. Anyway great I will look over these studies this week.

Also realized I had a more modern paper using HPLC but the conditions are a bit annoying.

 

[logos2012]

The blue entity didn't have that impressive of effects the first time he smoked his stuff which later proved to be quite visionary. The second time he smoked it with cappi harmaloids which seemed to really unlock the door and bring out the effects. Most every time now he seems to get deeper and deeper into the visions minus the times when he has smoked it when drunk which did produce some CEV's but not the visions.

He has given it to 4 other entities for their first time and 3 had impressive visions and one had pretty intense CEV's. He is interested in having more entities try it but most seem to be scared to try something new.

As it says in the bufochanga tek he thinks it's a good idea to smoke it with DMT and/or cappi to unlock the vision state. The one time he did smoke it with DMT he smoked the bufo first and he got kind of bored of the fast moving grids so he had his pipe nearby and took 2 tokes which is not usually a breakthrough dose for him. He laid back and the visuals immediately changed to more DMT like but much more dark and smokey. The experience seemed more bufo like and still very DMT but not as much mind fuckery. He went to a room with shadow like entities. One got really close to him, almost annoyingly close like inches away, so he told the entity to get away. The vision then faded away like it does when the bufo visions stop.

He was under the impression that bufo needed a straight lighter flame because the vaporizing temp is a lot higher. He rolls straight bufo up into a rolling paper and puts it in a weed pipe. Can one just smoke it in a regular DMT pipe of what?

How much are SWIY's smoking by the way? He never measures hits because he doesn't have a milligram scale. He just figures he'll stop when he's at the right point. With the first stuff he had extracted with the roasting tek he would take about 7 big hits over a few minutes and hold them as long as he can. He has to try to catch his breath sometimes because he holds them for a while but sometimes he'll just cough them up. Now that he has purified it by doing FASIPA it seems to take 3 or 4 hits to get to the same place.