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White spice vs. orange/yellow spice

It's not about putting a disclaimer before everything you say, it's about not affirming with certainty something tangible as that certain non-alkaloidal plant oil is psychoactive, if you dont know (considering this is what you meant, read further down).

This whole forum is dedicated to such endeavours, and that our information here is reliable (hence why its so attractive to many people too) so dont you think it important that we are prudent with assertions we make? You know the whole thing with E-Prime (just as an example). Dont you think there is a very important difference in communication (and not much effort difference) between saying: " The compound XYZ is psychoactive" or "The compound XYZ might be psychoactive" ?

It might have been a misunderstanding from my part but your sentence really sounded like you were affirming that non-alkaloidal plant oils are active. Is that not what you meant? If not, then forgive me, I misunderstood..

Your 'tests' prove nothing regarding psychoactivity of plant oils. What they might show, though, is that there is a psychoactive fraction extracted from mimosa that probably isnt DMT (but still, would be interesting to analyse it, as burnt has shown even after multiple aliphatic petrochem re-x, there is still dmt left in jungle). That could be very well be NMT, DMT N-oxide, 2-MTHBC, a mixture of those, or who knows, maybe something else, or maybe your tests had some methodological issues that would have to be overcome to be more certain? Just a few possibilities, regardless, im glad you shared your tests, and more tests are always welcome, this is what this community is about :)

And your salvinorin example does not relate to what I asked you for. I never said you should say plant oils are inactive just because we havent proven they are active. I just said dont affirm they are active if you dont know yet. Please dont be offended, try to understand where im coming from, im definitely not questioning your experience with psychedelics.
 
What I can say, and what I thought I had been saying, is that the leftovers from exhaustive re-x cleanings are clearly psychoactive in the opinion of SWIM and over a dozen of his compatriots (10 of whom did side by side comparisons).

These leftovers are mostly oils, and do not crystalize. Even after weeks they don't dry out completely. They probably do have some DMT left in them and there might be a significant amount of n-oxide there, as the re-x solvent doesn't take up much n-oxide.

While it is conceivable that some plant oils from the Mimosa mighyt be themselves psychoactive, it is more likely that there are other alkaloids responsible here. But who knows? It might be NMT, but I vote against it being just the n-oxide, as it is qualitatively very non-DMT like. (for SWIM and his guinea pigs)

Honeyspice seems to be some of these oily leftovers combined with much higher concentrations of n-oxide (and some n,n DMT as well), and as such it provides a very typical DMT flash, only altered somewhat. SWIM finds it to be very similar to yellow spice only even more longer come up, and more sunny. (it also doesn't dry out)

If you are refering to burnt's post here: red yellow white spice whats the difference? - Advanced/Enhanced chemistry - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

He doesn't specifically test the re-x leftovers. He only compares jungle and yellow. Also, it is unclear how he made the jungle. It seeems from his analysis that it was only mildly reddish. 97% DMT while the yellow was 90%. If he would have used heat and pulled the solvent while still colored, he could have come up with a much higher concentration of "impurities" as SWIM's re-x leftovers were more like 10-15% of the volume and were deep purple.

Also, he speaks of missing mass, and unidentifiable indoles.

Anyway, nothing he says contradicts SWIM's experience, and it doesn't amount to any kind of final word on the subject. It seems to me that the qualitative effects are so obviously different that anyone should be able to confirm what I have said here by simply taking the time to make some jungle (as dark as they can) and then re-x it a couple times, collect and combine the leftovers and bioassay them. If anyone else besides SWIM has done this, I urge them to post their findings.

Other than that, all anyone can do is state their preference to believe what someone they don't know has said they did (SWIM, burnt or any number of others). The Nexus is not a peer-reviewed journal, and even burnt's admirable work is still anecdotal.

Some of us actually prefer our own experience anyway.
 
Good post :)

I understand and agree with you that it is more likely to be an alkaloid, possibly more than just n-oxide. Nen's research are very interesting regarding NMT, im sure you've been following that! Even about n-oxide, we still dont really know for sure if its just like DMT, people are usually smoking mixtures in any case. With mixture of compounds, as you are well aware pharmacology is much more complex. Even different ratios of the same compounds could potentially give rise to many different experiences.

You are right burnt's analysis arent the final word, they are great informing tests that give us clues where we could go next. There are many questions to be answered, hence why I said "more tests are always welcome".

In fact I do think we should try to explore more the exhausted jungle. That info was from personal communication, I dont think it was posted in that thread. In any case one could test, lets say, how much % dmt there is after X number of recrystallizations

The problem is I have no xylene/toluene, I have limonene, hexane and acetone. I could get most solvents but cash is pretty low, so thats a limiting factor. I have fumaric acid and vinegar and hcl as salts, and sodium carb or sodium hydroxide as bases. Again, could get other stuff but cant really afford atm.

So what kind of side-by-side extraction methods should I go for that would be of most interest?
 
Hyperspace Fool said:
He doesn't specifically test the re-x leftovers. He only compares jungle and yellow. Also, it is unclear how he made the jungle. It seeems from his analysis that it was only mildly reddish. 97% DMT while the yellow was 90%. If he would have used heat and pulled the solvent while still colored, he could have come up with a much higher concentration of "impurities" as SWIM's re-x leftovers were more like 10-15% of the volume and were deep purple.
Click to expand...

Seems like you may want to get re-organized and re do some of your work so that you know exactly what your getting and how you are getting it.

I'm interested in this active deep purpleish stuff you came up with. I regularly work with and seperate out my spice into three different quality levels. I never use heat though. I have also never gotten purple out of my red\orange waxy jungle spice. Purple, to me sounds like you got a hold of somevery fine particulate matter from you basic solution in there thats discoloring it? or is the color change coming from carmelizing of sugars or other impurities in there?

interesting
 
I've never worked with "jungle spice", so I'm most interested in the re-x leftovers from yellow/orange D.

How does one store the leftovers and how the dosing is done, and can the stuff be smoked in normal pipe such as the GVG? Normal about 25mg for breakthrough? Or is this stuff very different from normal DMT and doesn't give you breakthroughs?
 
endlessness said:
So what kind of side-by-side extraction methods should I go for that would be of most interest?
Click to expand...

I would say that without buying anything more, you could do some heated d-limonene pulls, and then do tests with the full range acetate salts that you get. Though, to be honest, I don't know if the limo will release all the oils to the vinegar, or whether jungle salts have anything in common with freebase jungle spice. Basing the salts wouldn't help much I guess because it would still only be whatever was in the salts.

You could try to get some oils with naptha, though. SWIM is able to get some jungle with certain brands of naptha (Zippo actually has toulene in it). With Zippo premium lighter fluid, SWIM has gotten very reddish pulls with heat after long sitting. The naptha becomes so saturated that it won't pull after a while without washing out the honey.

Ice House said:
Seems like you may want to get re-organized and re do some of your work so that you know exactly what your getting and how you are getting it.

I'm interested in this active deep purpleish stuff you came up with. I regularly work with and seperate out my spice into three different quality levels. I never use heat though. I have also never gotten purple out of my red\orange waxy jungle spice. Purple, to me sounds like you got a hold of somevery fine particulate matter from you basic solution in there thats discoloring it? or is the color change coming from carmelizing of sugars or other impurities in there?

interesting
Click to expand...

No doubt. Unfortunately SWIM has no access to lab grade equipment or any chromotography (paper, gas, ion exchange whatever) equip. He doesn't even have a digital PH meter, and still uses hard to read strips.

Fine particulate matter can not be ruled out, but it is doubtful. The very red solvent generally only comes with heat (and maybe time as well). SWIM rolls his jugs on the floor back and forth for a pretty long time, lets them sit for quite a while and then rolls them around again after a hot bath when he wants the dark stuff. Then it is important to do your entire pull ASAP, because you can see the red oils dropping out of the solvent immediately. The way the stuff moves lends weight to the heavy oil hypothesis rather than basic water or particulate matter. It is absolutely not emulsion.

On another note, swim has collected, dried and assayed a fine foam that he achieved once in a naptha tek which was clearly also not emulsion and only appeared after a long heat bath. This stuff smelled and tasted similar to the purplish re-x leftovers, and was also mildly psychoactive. This foam might form when the naptha is incapable of holding the oily stuff, but the basic soup doesn't immediately want it back and it forms a layer between the soup and the solvent temporarily.

There was no taste of anything that might be lye, but then lye burns at a much higher temparture than any vaping or smoalking technique Swim uses.

tele said:
I've never worked with "jungle spice", so I'm most interested in the re-x leftovers from yellow/orange D.

How does one store the leftovers and how the dosing is done, and can the stuff be smoked in normal pipe such as the GVG? Normal about 25mg for breakthrough? Or is this stuff very different from normal DMT and doesn't give you breakthroughs?
Click to expand...

Leftovers from the yellow are likely to be mostly DMT & oxide, but it is possible that some interesting oils or unkonwn "impurities" will be there as well. Depending on the tek, solvents used, handling, time left to sit etc. it could be rather different but I would expect something similar to honeyspice (perhaps a bit weaker).

Orange stuff might net you some of the more jungly oils, but again who knows? Depends on the methods used.

Whatever you get, it can be vaped or smoked on infused herbs. (those are the only ways SWIM has tried it). I would start small and work up with any new substance. While jungle, honey and the other spices certainly give breakthroughs... no one SWIM has played with reported breakthroughs from the purple re-x leftovers. The high is not all that DMT like either. Though there were interesting visuals in dark rooms. Smoalking the stuff while on other psychedelics was interesting as well, and laid a very distinctive headspace on top of whatever else was going on for 20 min or so.

Perhaps that stuff is just not very strong, and has a fairly high ratio of NMT to DMT. Maybe the stuff is mostly just aromatic and floral oils, and SWIM has only ever taken subthreshold doses of it.

If the occasion permits, he will do some more testing as he is able.
 
OK cheers. What is the easiest way to make some herbal infusion from re-x leftovers? Would swirling inactive leaf powder around in the leftovers be enough or should one use ethanol or acetone?
 
Hyperspace Fool,

Thanks for the ideas. Unfortunately appart from hexane, as I mentioned, I dont have anything else to emulate your toluene-naphtha. Its not a problem of availability, I could just go down to a store nearby and buy most solvents/chems no questions asked, but I really have no money now. I will ask for a friend, maybe he can give me some toluene to make tests, lets see.

As for your description of the purple-causing "oils", that ice house well suggested it could be particles from bark, here's an idea I had if you do this again: Get your product, and redissolve in acidic water, and filter it. All alkaloids and similar should move to the water layer. Then filter this, and any purely bark-particles will stay in the filter. Then re-base and re-extract, this way you should have all the actives and remove any possible plant material. What do you think?

Also one question, were you always working with STB or was this the same for A/B ?
 
@ tele

I would go with ethanol or acetone.


@ endlessness

Most of SWIMS extractions are A/B with moderate heat. This seems to be the most effective at getting the majority of the goods to come out. While STB's can be cool if left to sit for long enough, and SWIM is starting to mess with dryteks, basically all the jungle re-x stuff SWIM made came from heated A/B teks.

I find that any paper filter soaks up a lot of oils. And, any mesh filter would let most particulates through. Even SWIM's prized 00 hash filter seems like a waste of time.

The color could be über fine particulates... who knows? Maybe they are where the magic lies anyway. One thing that can be said for sure, though is that the oils move like oil. Watching them cascade down the side of a glass jar, there is no doubt that whatever it is is mostly viscous oil. Even getting rather close and looking through the glass at a bright light, there is no telltale particulate dust to be seen.

More experiments will ensue when time permits.
 
Just curious, Why do you feel the need to use moderate heat, or any heat at all for that matter? Room Temperature works great, you just gotta do a couple more pulls and or longer pulls. IME heat pulls allot of un-necessary extras. I'm convinced whatever the purple color is heat is whats pulling it.
 
Ice House said:
Just curious, Why do you feel the need to use moderate heat, or any heat at all for that matter? Room Temperature works great, you just gotta do a couple more pulls and or longer pulls. IME heat pulls allot of un-necessary extras. I'm convinced whatever the purple color is heat is whats pulling it.
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Yeah. That is the point.

Trying to pull the extras... which you call un-necessary. The idea is that they are not so un-necessary after all. That there are some interesting properties to the full spectrum alkaloids and oils.

If you just want white or pure crystals, by all means don't use heat. (or toulene, xylene, limonene etc.)
 
..there are still some uncertainties in the NMT-as-oil findings, and this may have been a mixture of things..certainly NMT usually took a lot longer than DMT to crystalize (by up to a week)..floral oils have usually only been found in acacias while flowering and have a distinct floral smell (they will separate from other tryptamines on blotting paper)
also, to quote wira from "entheogenic effects of NMT" (post#45):
Regarding Mimosa hostilis (tenuiflora), stem bark has seen more published analysis, and besides DMT, tryptamine and serotonin, the only other alkaloid of note is the (relatively) recently discovered yuremamine, which is suspected of being psychoactive and an MAOI. It's likely this will be found in root bark, though I'm not sure if it's identical with the mystery alkaloid (DMT-conjugate?) that J. Ott has been talking about for years.
Click to expand...
anyone got reference info. for Yuremamine?
..i think paper chromatography and TLC would be the best method to get an idea what's going on in these different colored samples...

PS. also see this thread for discussion of the yellow oil, plus photo of oxide..yellow oil DMT-N-Oxide orally active? - Welcome discussion - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus
..the oil is probably not the oxide...
 
Does anyone here think that yellow DMT is slightly harsher for the lungs than white DMT?

And if there's no difference in smoothness of the smoke, why are people doing recrystallizations?
 
tele said:
Does anyone here think that yellow DMT is slightly harsher for the lungs than white DMT?

And if there's no difference in smoothness of the smoke, why are people doing recrystallizations?
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SWIM doesn't notice any extra harshness.

And from the psychoactive effects, the yellow and darker stuff tends to be a smoother ride.

SWIM re-x's mostly to achieve some connoisseur grade, prize, show-off crystals. Trophies that he doesn't usually even want to smoalk.

Considering that he prefers jungle and yellow anyway, and that they give higher returns on the same amount of material... making pure white or clear spiky gems of glory is mostly an ego thing to show off to his other buds.

All of SWIM's greatest journeys have been with orange stuff. An his favorite cozy mozy experiences came from honey spice.

The clinical clarity of the white is useful though. SWIM likes it when already fuzzy from dissos.
 
ime :

pure xtals are close to tasteless when vaped and produce no visible smoke when exhailed, the person sitting next to the smoker can often not even smell anything, they are not harsh and leave almost no residue on the pipe other than that which xtallizes on the pipe from temp differences.
There is less body load and the transition from baseline to breakthru is much faster and softer - perhaps because one can inhail more vapour per puff.

more colored spices tend to produce more physical effects, less well defined visuals, way more taste and smell and potential harshness and residue on the pipe.
 
Phlux- said:
ime :

pure xtals are close to tasteless when vaped and produce no visible smoke when exhailed, the person sitting next to the smoker can often not even smell anything, they are not harsh and leave almost no residue on the pipe other than that which xtallizes on the pipe from temp differences.
There is less body load and the transition from baseline to breakthru is much faster and softer - perhaps because one can inhail more vapour per puff.

more colored spices tend to produce more physical effects, less well defined visuals, way more taste and smell and potential harshness and residue on the pipe.
Click to expand...

Faster doesn't equal softer.

The level of rocketship acceleration usually coincides with the body load for SWIM.

Harshness is relative, and as someone who could snap 3ft bongloads with no cough reflex, it is not all that much of an issue for SWIM.

Residue in a glass pipe is usually just bonus IME. It means you can blast of one or more times after you have run out of spice.

I feel you on the benefits of clear crystals though. I can't imagine visuals being more defined, necessarily, but it does take SWIM to a more technically pure and sci-fi area of Hyperspace. The more color to the spice seems to add some warmth and fuzziness, and can emphasize the more cartoony aspects of the place.

Different strokes.
 
Phlux- said:
ime :

There is less body load and the transition from baseline to breakthru is much faster and softer - perhaps because one can inhail more vapour per puff.

more colored spices tend to produce more physical effects, less well defined visuals, way more taste and smell and potential harshness and residue on the pipe.
Click to expand...

I've felt more body load from yellow/orange stuff too, quite many times... Has anyone else experiences this?

I don't know about less well defined visuals, what do you mean by that?
 
..based on molecular weight, i would expect common tryptamines to leave chromatography bands in the following (or reverse) order (if present) :


molecular weight

Tryptamine R1=R2=R3=H

N-methyltryptamine (NMT)R1=R2=H,R3=CH3 174.8

5-hydroxytryptamine (Serotonin) R1=OH,R2=R3=H 176.2

N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) R1=H,R2=R3=CH3 188.3

N,N-dimethylserotonin (Bufotenine) R1=OH,R2=R3=CH 204.3

5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine (5-MeoDMT) R1=CH3O,R2=R3=CH3 218.9

beta-carbolines (sometimes byproducts of tryptamines) should also be taken into account..in M.hostilis there should appear a large DMT band, with perhaps 2 or 3 other very narrow bands (unless, of course, it is more variable than previously thought)

the best way to practice chromatography would be on material of already tested & known components..
.
 
Hyperspace Fool, if you can manipulate different extractions, you shouldn't find Paper Chromatography too hard..

..OK, if i had access to MHRB, or stem bark, i would experiment with simple paper chromatography as follows:

..firstly, following Hyperspace Fool & other nexian's described methods, i would produce a variety of different colored 'spices' by A/B and STB

..the extracts are be dissolved in one of the solvent solutions described here:

entheogenic effects of NMT p.2 post#25
chromatographic properties of n-oxides post#11

then either,
Paper Chromatography - blotting paper clamped between two sheets of glass are employed as described in "entheogenic effects of NMT" p.2 post#25;
or Thin Layer Chromatography - as described in How do analytical methods work? (TLC, Photospec, GC-MS, LC-MS, etc)

a good reference sample of fairly pure dmt is ideally obtained (can be plant derived)

the bands of different tryptamines will elute in the order described in post#58 (this thread)
if bands (including not visible ones) show much stronger fluorescence under UV light than dmt, they are likely beta-carbolines..

a reagent (such as below) is then applied to the bands - (and the color changes compared with reference info)

- elrich's or silicotungustic acid reagent (see entheogenic effects of NMT pp.2-3)
-plus see list of reagents in Colorimetric test results (Marquis, Mecke, Ehrlich, etc) for different alkaloids - Substance testing.
(many more reagents)
these can be commercially obtained or often easily made from purchased chemicals..

when all is working well, a much clearer picture of what is likely in a plant or extract emerges...
 
nen888

I agree that the process and techniques of chromatography are not all that difficult. Purchasing the materials (especially the reagents) would be the only obstacles, and frankly not very huge ones.

If money and time were no object, perhaps some of us who understand how to extract various colors of spice and their derivatives could set up mini labs in our basements or whatever, but it seems to be going about this backwards. It would be easier for one of you lab guys (with access to a lab already) to simply learn how to make full spectrum extractions and do your own re'x procedures on some purposefully heavily oily, heated pulls.

The idea being that you all will probably be purchasing and extracting MHRB anyway... whereas SWIM has no immediate plans to acquire and master chromatography equipment. It could happen in time, but it is not anywhere near the top of his to-do list.

The planar chromatography techniques you describe would be fine for a start, but there would be no reason to stop there. I would be interested in seeing the results of column, gas, liquid, ion-exchange, displacement, affinity, chiral, countercurrent and all the other types of chromatography as well. And even then, it is possible to not find certain components...

If one of you has access to a lab already stocked with the necessary equipment, ordering a kilo of rootbark would be easier, cheaper, and more efficient than anything else. Ideally, the person doing this research would have already had some experience with the analysis techniques being used. As it is, SWIM doesn't even have a seperatory funnel, and has to pipette the noxious solvents by hand in a kitchen that is somewhat lacking in good ventilation.

Maybe one of you youngsters still in university can go ahead and do this work as a thesis project if you got special permission from your professor... especially if your university was somewhere with less uptight laws about the plant in question like maybe Brazil or Peru.

Anyway, whoever takes up the torch and goes on to figure all of this out, I salute you in advance.
 
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