Why A/B instead of STB?

[Luz]

May I ask why one would use an AB tek on MHRB instead of STB? What are the advantages and disadvantages of each one? My research on Nexus says that it is for defatting but also that MHRB does not have enough fats to bother with.

 

[benzyme]

A/B generally yields a cleaner product, but an STB with triple re-x negates that. As you correctly mentioned,
MHRB isn't particularly lipid-rich. A/B is more relevant to phalaris extraction.

 

[pete666]

STB with just single re-x is giving me very good results. But it certainly depends on the bark used, base:water ratio, time and temperature of soak, time and temperature of pulls and solvent type.
I would say the main disadvantage of STB is the risk of using lye, main advantage is lack of boils and straining, it is generally cleaner when done properly.

 

[fidus-archimedes]

Oh... I thought it was more about yield. My understanding was the acidic environment further broke down the cell structure resulting in greater available product. Then you basify to translate into freebase form. If you go straight to base, you convert to freebase, but less is chemically available, so there is less yield. No?

 

[blue.magic]

Oh... I thought it was more about yield. My understanding was the acidic environment further broke down the cell structure resulting in greater available product. Then you basify to translate into freebase form. If you go straight to base, you convert to freebase, but less is chemically available, so there is less yield. No?

The acidic environment is (AFAIK) solely for the purpose of increasing solubility of the alkaloid salts in the water - and possibly converting them to more convenient, more soluble salt, like acetate, instead of say tannate or oxalate occurring naturally - but that is just my understanding. Only small amount of acid is used and usually a weak, dilute acid (like vinegar), only to make the water acidic (pH 4-5 or so).

I do A/B because I can then use separatory funnel and pull last bit of solvent. Pipetting from STB soup always left a 10 ml or so on top which have been evaporated to the environment. You also need less base than in STB.

I also like the cleaner product obtained the first time.

The advantages of STB: simple a quick procedure, least equipment needed (hence go-to method for most people), possibly higher yield by breaking down the bark.

Disadvantages of STB: excess base needed, no opportunity to de-fat (not suitable for Acacias or Phalaris)

My advice is: try both and then pick what suits you best.

 

[pete666]

No, when you do STB right, the powdered bark goes through highly basic environment first (I use 100g MHRB with 100g NaOH and 0.5L water) for about a day. Lye breaks the structure really nicely. Then additional water(1L) is added and pulls are done. I admit more other stuff is taken with dmt in that way, but it is always a choice between more pure result or better yield. As benzyme stated, heptane re-x or possibly mini-A/B helps to deal with such impurities later on.
If one doesn't want to do mini-A/B or re-x, then less basic environment, shorter duration of soak can be done before pulling.
No problem to get 3% yield with both methods if done properly with good bark.

 

[benzyme]

cell membrane hydrolysis can occur in either acidic or basic environments.

 

[padawan]

do an A/B and keep the bark

then do an STB on the bark afterwards to see if there are any goodies leftover

 

[Luz]

STB with just single re-x is giving me very good results. But it certainly depends on the bark used, base:water ratio, time and temperature of soak, time and temperature of pulls and solvent type.
I would say the main disadvantage of STB is the risk of using lye, main advantage is lack of boils and straining, it is generally cleaner when done properly.

How does the base-water ratio affect the results? Do we not want a ph13 or so no matter the amount of liquid? Which way is better to go, thicker soup or more wattery?

 

[Luz]

No, when you do STB right, the powdered bark goes through highly basic environment first (I use 100g MHRB with 100g NaOH and 0.5L water) for about a day. Lye breaks the structure really nicely. Then additional water(1L) is added and pulls are done. I admit more other stuff is taken with dmt in that way, but it is always a choice between more pure result or better yield. As benzyme stated, heptane re-x or possibly mini-A/B helps to deal with such impurities later on.
If one doesn't want to do mini-A/B or re-x, then less basic environment, shorter duration of soak can be done before pulling.
No problem to get 3% yield with both methods if done properly with good bark.

Does not the NaOH break down the vitamin D when you leave it too long? How does minimal water help the NaOH? How does the additional water help the situation for the pulls?

 

[pete666]

How does the base-water ratio affect the results? Do we not want a ph13 or so no matter the amount of liquid? Which way is better to go, thicker soup or more wattery?

In fact, the more water, the better. Dmt is transfered very easily to non-polar, so there is no need to minimize amount of the water. The main reason for more water is the emulsion, which is much less likely when solution is not thick. Follow my suggestion above and you should be good.
pH is not important, as far as it is high enough.

 

[pete666]

Does not the NaOH break down the vitamin D when you leave it too long? How does minimal water help the NaOH? How does the additional water help the situation for the pulls?

No, it doesn't.
Minimum water ensures high alkalinity, which leads to cell breakage.
Added water ensures the probability of emulsion is low. With good bark it simply doesn't set up even with the most effort. Use less water and you will see the difference!