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why don't europeans want any actual power?

Migrated topic.
hug46 said:
dragonrider said:
That's the one thing that has been completely left out of all of the debates considering the brexit referendum even: that europe's position in the world is currently a very weak one, and that by weakening it evenfurther, all of europe is going to be affected by that.
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I don't know what debates you were watching but the weakening of both Britain and the EU following a brexit was fairly high up on the agendas of the remain camp and was definitely brought up. A lot.
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Well, then apparently, the british voter did not care.

So, i've been attacked by some people for bringing it up. And ridiculed. But here you state that the topic actually HAS been brought up. So my question could easily be rephrased into the question question wich is completely legitimate to ask..why don't they care?

I mean...the future president of the united states has said for instance, that he would not rule out the use of nukes against europe.
And that's supposed to be europe's great friend and ally.
Why would you want to be in the position to be bullied around like that, by what's supposed to be your greatest friend and ally?

You think that isn't a legitimate question? Or a ridicule thing to ask?
Why?
Are europeans less important?

I'm a european, and i don't like the notion that i'm a second grade world citizen, just because i'm born here.
Should i be fine with it, that the future president of the USA threatens to maybe nuke me if it suits him?
I bet, that if the French president would say such a thing about america, most americans would not so easily shrug that off.
 
dragonrider said:
the future president of the united states has said for instance, that he would not rule out the use of nukes against europe.
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Let's say a 'potential' future president. Trump's victory is far from guaranteed. I believe his odds of victory are currently ranked at below 20%

I think Europeans are probably less important to Americans, because, to Americans, EVERYTHING is less important than Americans (I'm generalizing here, but if you look at our mainstream culture, you know what I'm talking about).

I'm not European, so I can't speak for any of them, let alone all of them, but my understanding of EU international relations is that, after the 1st and 2nd world wars, as well as the collapse of colonialism, there's a sense that maybe there are things worth investing in rather than endless accumulation of military power. Wasn't that the impetus for the EU?

The US has never been on the receiving end of a major war, so we don't have any really compelling reason to stop masturbating our throbbing war boners.

Blessings
~ND
 
dragonrider said:
Well, then apparently, the british voter did not care.

So, i've been attacked by some people for bringing it up. And ridiculed. But here you state that the topic actually HAS been brought up. So my question could easily be rephrased into the question question wich is completely legitimate to ask..why don't they care?
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As it was pretty much a 50/50 split on the vote i would say that half of the British voters did care and it is not that the other half do not care. It's just that they had been convinced otherwise by various campaigners and media institutions.

I mean...the future president of the united states has said for instance, that he would not rule out the use of nukes against europe.
And that's supposed to be europe's great friend and ally.
Why would you want to be in the position to be bullied around like that, by what's supposed to be your greatest friend and ally?
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Probably because a lot of Europeans don't take the potential future leader of America very seriously. Which is just as frightening as the prospect that he may become president.

Whereabouts in Europe are you from?
 
dragonrider said:
Should i be fine with it, that the future president of the USA threatens to maybe nuke me if it suits him?
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Don't take it personal and have a laugh, people are already signing petitions to nuke the US.

[YOUTUBE]
 
You do realize that Europe is made up of multiple countries right?
And what is actual power, the ability to convince 18 year olds to die for oil contracts?

Also there was a time in European history when a country in Europe did vie for European power, history refers to that era as Nazi Germany.

What kind of power are you talking about? The ability to enslave and manipulate economies of other nations using military force to perpetuate a cycle of blind consumerism. Its not exactly a sane culture. The US doesn't have power, it's in the throughs of a violent cultural disorder and the violence doesn't make it "powerful" it makes it insane.
 
dragonrider said:
Isn't it weird that europeans generally don't seem to want europe to be powerfull?
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Thats because europe is a group of states. Not a confederation.

Just take germany for example germany is a "Bundesrepublik" meaning its a group of countries bound together. Many people will say they are german. Only some will say otherwise, for example they will say they are bavarian or saxons.

In germany the countries sacrificed their sovereignty to form a country.

In europe the different states dont loose much sovereignty at all.
People still live in their country by the rules of their country.
Europe is nothing more than a treaty "to be nicer to eachother"
Europe is even less of a country than sealand is.
Because of that the leader of each nation do their own thing. They look for power (if they even do) only for themselves.

Europe is actually really powerfull. You forget something there. They dont need to stride for more power. They got more than enough. Russia, the USA and China cant force Europe to do anything. Many old USSR search protection from russia by joining the EU. And once they are in there is nothing russia can do.

Also dont forget that europe was meant for peace. WWI and WWII were never on american ground. Many people in the USA belive that america did everything in the war. They did hide for a long time and suffered the least losses.
America lost less than a 100 civilians during WWII and less than 1/30 of all soldiers.
Refer to fallen.io

Search for power creates hatred. Hatred creates war. Just look what america did in the middle east.
Russia did the same many times over too.
 
Psychelectric said:
Also there was a time in European history when a country in Europe did vie for European power, history refers to that era as Nazi Germany.
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Add to that the british empire, various incarnations of greek and roman empires, french colonial empire, portugese empire, spanish empire, celtic empire and probably quite a few more that i havent thought of.
 
dragonrider said:
I'm a european, and i don't like the notion that i'm a second grade world citizen, just because i'm born here.
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Trollface.png
 
universecannon said:
So what should Europe do to get more "power"
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This would only empower a select group of people, none of whom represents 99.99 of the population of Europe. Ultimately, this power would be used against the population of Europe, too.

The whole notion of "Europe" needing power is complete bullshit. The same with "American" power: most of the population of the USA does not benefit from the raging imperialism. Just ask war veterans.
 
Ulim said:
People still live in their country by the rules of their country.
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Not really, because EU law overrules national law. RCs are an example: EU court says RCs are intoxifying chemicals not medicinal drugs, so Germany can't apply its medicinal drug laws to RCs like it used to do.

I'm not European, so I can't speak for any of them, let alone all of them, but my understanding of EU international relations is that, after the 1st and 2nd world wars, as well as the collapse of colonialism, there's a sense that maybe there are things worth investing in rather than endless accumulation of military power. Wasn't that the impetus for the EU?
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Yes.

Apart from the ideas of federation, confederation, or customs union, the original development of the European Union was based on a supranational foundation that would "make war unthinkable and materially impossible"[1][2] and reinforce democracy amongst its members[3] as laid out by Robert Schuman and other leaders in the Schuman Declaration (1950) and the Europe Declaration (1951).


en.wikipedia.org

History of the European Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
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The main threats to the EU are right-wing nationalists and undemocratic structures, not US politicians. Let's hope that citizens worldwide get rid of the nationalist scum. They are the evil forces against peace, prosperity and a World Union.

The whole notion of "Europe" needing power is complete bullshit. The same with "American" power: most of the population of the USA does not benefit from the raging imperialism. Just ask war veterans.
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Exactly. Some people are born to be cannon fodder.

veterans-suicide-450.jpg
 
Ufostrahlen said:
Ulim said:
People still live in their country by the rules of their country.
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Not really, because EU law overrules national law. RCs are an example: EU court says RCs are intoxifying chemicals not medicinal drugs, so Germany can't apply its medicinal drug laws to RCs like it used to do.
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ye but i took 1 year in school to get through everything about the eu so im keeping it short.
 
ijahdan said:
pitubo said:
Insecure people seek psychological shelter in externally approved identities, but these are only provided for the purpose of being used against them, so they can be pitted against each other.
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True, it's easy to get sucked in by these cultural identities. I try not to see myself as 'British' or 'European', but sometimes slip into that mindset, mainly when comparing 'us' with some other group of people, such as in this very thread.

The old 'divide and rule', it's been working for centuries.
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If that is true, we're living in a dangerous world, where political instability could easily lead to the rise of dangerous forms of nationalism. Or maybe even imperialism.

If i where living in such a world, i think i would want to be protected by a powerfull military, so that no imperialist leader elsewhere would ever get the idea of invading or nuking my country.

Especially, when these dangerous forms of group thinking, of nationalism, xenophobia and imperialism would be quite common and therefore, a very real threat.
 
Well, I live in California, so I'm just guessing and possibly projecting, but..

If I saw a swaggering bully who stomps around with a lot of ill informed, sanctimonious judgement and hypocritical posturing; and that bully wanted not just to have the biggest piece of cake, but also to internationally outlaw anyone else having any cake at all; and that bully wanted to gamble with me, but ONLY if he could have all of the benefits but take none of the risks; and that bully had a big nasty stick that he whacked everybody with if they even looked at him funny -- why would I want to be like that bully at all?

I wouldn't want to play baseball with someone who insisted you count only their runs, and none of their outs, while yours counted double.

And I sure the hell wouldn't want to be like the kind of people who come up with things like corporate personhood, and the twisted insistence on being able to sue a nation whose people choose to ban your literally poisonous products --- for "lost profits."

(I blame the puritans)
 
pitubo said:
First world problems...
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Well, funny. But the future president of the united states has, out of the blue, and for no reason but his own amusement, threatened to kill me amd everyone i know and love, and to burn all of my world down to the ground. Because that's what nukes do.
And just because elsewhere there are people who don't have enough to eat, i should be happy to be bullied around like that?

If you think that being bullied around like that is not such a bad thing, that it's something a person shouldn't complain about, why don't we trade places then? You give me your nukes, and i make the jokes about using them against you.
I mean, if you think that being in such a position is not realy worth complaining...
 
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