So far it's 50-50... really? People think Wikileaks can actually be bad? No-holds-barred transparency seems like a good thing to me. Something needs to be feeding the press other than press releases and party lines. As investigation journalism slowly dies out, wikileaks seems to be taking the next logical step in making sure some kind of accountability still exists for those who manage our world. Wikileaks actually gives me hope for the future.
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wikileaks: friend or foe?
- Thread starter polytrip
- Start date
1664
Rising Star
very topical, I'm sure this will be an interesting thread!
I vote for both. I like the fact that it will keep governments on their toes and expose many wrongs that are best out in the open. However, the latest "leak" about the embassy conversations seems unfair. Many conversations go on behind closed doors that only took place because they are supposedly private.
If you put yourself in that situation where everything you have said about a person in private is exposed for them to see, I am sure many of us would be red faced.
I vote for both. I like the fact that it will keep governments on their toes and expose many wrongs that are best out in the open. However, the latest "leak" about the embassy conversations seems unfair. Many conversations go on behind closed doors that only took place because they are supposedly private.
If you put yourself in that situation where everything you have said about a person in private is exposed for them to see, I am sure many of us would be red faced.
Yeah, i'm absolutely undecided myself, on what to think of all this. Thus far they've revealed some stuff that realy needed to be seen. On the other hand...who are they? who're they working for? who's paying them? How sure are we that it's all real? Is there stuff that realy needs to be kept secret in relation to the safety of some people (names of al-quaida informants, etc.)? and most of all...do they have a secret agenda themselves?
I like the truth to come out..especially when it's about war crimes.
But the paradox is ofcourse that the sources of wikileaks themselves are being kept secret.
So if i can't trust the government..how do i know i cán trust wikileaks?
I hope time will tell.
In the meantime..maybe someone can come up with an argument that can realy convince me to be pro or contra..
I like the truth to come out..especially when it's about war crimes.
But the paradox is ofcourse that the sources of wikileaks themselves are being kept secret.
So if i can't trust the government..how do i know i cán trust wikileaks?
I hope time will tell.
In the meantime..maybe someone can come up with an argument that can realy convince me to be pro or contra..
Tangarine_Dreams
Rising Star
been my best friend since 2006. they have been around. you wouldnt know any of the bush admin's wrong doings without them.
an ally, like polidics.
F%^*& Amazon. they no longer have my business.
F%^*& Amazon. they no longer have my business.
Information should never be with held or controlled... Wikileaks illuminates and creates awareness, how can that be bad?
Much Peace and Respect
Much Peace and Respect
The politicians and governments of this world need to be closely scrutinized. It used to be the role of the news papers and television reporters but they have rapidly lost credibility as they are just as prone to back door deals as the politicians themselves. We need things like wikileaks to make public the darker sides of our government.
the first step of real change is exposing the old guys behind the curtain.
they are the ones who get people elected, they are the ones who want to keep the newest biotechnological advancements, like telomerase treatment, for themselves. if the Mars space program really gets going, they're the ones who're going to fund it, and not so your kids can have a future as astronauts. they're the ones who want defense spending, to protect their overseas investments; protecting your freedoms has nothing to do with it. they want to protect their freedom of expanding their assets, with no regard for your well-being.
viva wikileaks. we need more sources like that.
they are the ones who get people elected, they are the ones who want to keep the newest biotechnological advancements, like telomerase treatment, for themselves. if the Mars space program really gets going, they're the ones who're going to fund it, and not so your kids can have a future as astronauts. they're the ones who want defense spending, to protect their overseas investments; protecting your freedoms has nothing to do with it. they want to protect their freedom of expanding their assets, with no regard for your well-being.
viva wikileaks. we need more sources like that.
Today i posted a frank zappa line in the quote thread, wich is unfortunately so true when it comes to politic's (not just in washington but everywhere)benzyme said:
"what they do in washington...
They just take care of number one.
And number one aint you...
You aint even number two".
It's so incredibly sad.
vovin said:
Vovin is kind in his about what the press has become. Not only has the press become untrustworthy, it is literally owned by the fascist masters of the world who shield themselves behind their corporate identities. It is those people who would best like to keep everybody 'dumbed down' and consuming mindlessly. George Carlin said something to the effect: Educate people just enough to keep the machines of the businesses running but nothing more....
Being that the western governments are owned by the same masters is it any surprise why we are being screwed over with such vigor and intensity in the last decade?
Isn't the close knit cooperation and outright ownership of the press and the government by corporations the very definition of fascism?
pau
Rising Star
yeah, IMO there is something very good AND very bad about this. I also believe that altruism is not the only explanation for what Wikileaks is doing....what Assange is doing is making him into a celebrity, and presumably a very wealthy and successful one...how do you blame a guy for making a living? Bottom line, he's driven by the economics of making a living one way or another, just like everybody else is. Not everyone makes the same choices or has the same value system. And all he has to do is say, "Oh no, I'm driven entirely by altrusism." Yeah, right.
Wasn't there an FBI whistleblower regarding unsavory types in flight schools? And, I think history has shown that the Pentagon Papers thing had a good side to it....as did Nixon's Deep Throat.
But obviously Assange's value system is definitely out there. At some point these revelations begin to play with the lives of other people. And, like it or not, there are lots of countries in this world - the extreme end being N Korea - where the half-life of a home-grown Assange is measured in nanoseconds. There are some reports (and these days, who knows WHAT to believe, including the concept that Wikileaks is a CIA front!!!) that some power centers in some of these "less than free press" countries have subtly threatened Wikileaks...and they're not talking about 30 years of legal battles. As a nation, we for better or worse need to have some relations with the bad guys, and it doesn't bother me that we've given our government the right to keep some of those discussions under wraps....it seems clear to me that everyone is better off that way. What if, for expample, the N Korean government reads that China really despises it and .... (fill in the blank).
In a more "cosmic" sense there is the perspective that this is all going on within the giant movie that is the entirety of reality...is it "good"? Is it "bad"? Who are we to say?
Wasn't there an FBI whistleblower regarding unsavory types in flight schools? And, I think history has shown that the Pentagon Papers thing had a good side to it....as did Nixon's Deep Throat.
But obviously Assange's value system is definitely out there. At some point these revelations begin to play with the lives of other people. And, like it or not, there are lots of countries in this world - the extreme end being N Korea - where the half-life of a home-grown Assange is measured in nanoseconds. There are some reports (and these days, who knows WHAT to believe, including the concept that Wikileaks is a CIA front!!!) that some power centers in some of these "less than free press" countries have subtly threatened Wikileaks...and they're not talking about 30 years of legal battles. As a nation, we for better or worse need to have some relations with the bad guys, and it doesn't bother me that we've given our government the right to keep some of those discussions under wraps....it seems clear to me that everyone is better off that way. What if, for expample, the N Korean government reads that China really despises it and .... (fill in the blank).
In a more "cosmic" sense there is the perspective that this is all going on within the giant movie that is the entirety of reality...is it "good"? Is it "bad"? Who are we to say?
benzyme said:
Benzy, I wholeheartedly agree about each and every point you make especially the use of US 'defense' funds to assure that thee overseas investments of the overseers is kept safe...
I think additionally to this is the fact that these guys behind the curtain are also drunk with the power of life or death that they hold over close to 7 billion human beings. This power they protect with all their might because it is what the live for. Nothing else matters to them.
I haven't heard of wikipeaks posting anything useful. From what I hear, they're posting high school note type things about other leaders, such as "hey, buddy, the senator said the Iranian president is douche." And of course, private citizens don't want their private messages sifted through, and this is exactly why. Because people can take bullshit messages and make it a much bigger deal than it should be.
edit: I apologize for those comments. I didn't fully research the whole issue, which will take some time. I should have done what I normally do when I don't have the full picture, and that's not say anything at all. However, I will remain fully transparent with my comments and not try to hide them.
edit: I apologize for those comments. I didn't fully research the whole issue, which will take some time. I should have done what I normally do when I don't have the full picture, and that's not say anything at all. However, I will remain fully transparent with my comments and not try to hide them.
first off the Iranian president is a douche. Even he knows he's a douche. I hesitate to say that a douche has a important function. It is a insult to douches around the world to be associated with that guy. I wonder if he really does believe that the holocaust never happened.
You know you have failed as a news reporter when comedy central shows are more trustworthy in most Americans opinions than they are.
Benjamin Franklin once said something to the order of anyone who gives up liberty for safety should have neither. The governments are using fear to control society and the media is feeding on it. They are the heralds of frearmongering. Those who once were the enemy of politicians have become their fiercest allies.
You know you have failed as a news reporter when comedy central shows are more trustworthy in most Americans opinions than they are.
Benjamin Franklin once said something to the order of anyone who gives up liberty for safety should have neither. The governments are using fear to control society and the media is feeding on it. They are the heralds of frearmongering. Those who once were the enemy of politicians have become their fiercest allies.
The best weapon against big business and governments worldwide so far. I love it.
We can suppose all we want about that guy's intentions, but fact is, its real information! Look at how the governments are responding, everyone is taking this very seriously. I just read that Hillary Clinton personally called some world leaders to appologize for the information that came out, and all over the world there are these very strong reactions.
And no its not just 'gossip' about simple things, there's some VERY serious accusations regarding for example spain turning a blind eye to these CIA secret flights with prisoners, or UK allowing storage of cluster bombs even after signing treaties against it, or USA making pressure against the investigation of the killing of reporters in Iraq by soldiers, or all sorts of serious facts related to corruption, acting against human rights, etc. And there's gonna be more information slowly poured out through many weeks, which concerns all the world and not just one or another country.
It's a very peculiar moment we are living in, with all these things coming to light. I wonder how it will turn out though, if people will just 'naturalize' it even more and be even more passive regarding the powers that be, or if this is a sign of the falling system which can give rise to something new. Lets hope for the best.
And no its not just 'gossip' about simple things, there's some VERY serious accusations regarding for example spain turning a blind eye to these CIA secret flights with prisoners, or UK allowing storage of cluster bombs even after signing treaties against it, or USA making pressure against the investigation of the killing of reporters in Iraq by soldiers, or all sorts of serious facts related to corruption, acting against human rights, etc. And there's gonna be more information slowly poured out through many weeks, which concerns all the world and not just one or another country.
It's a very peculiar moment we are living in, with all these things coming to light. I wonder how it will turn out though, if people will just 'naturalize' it even more and be even more passive regarding the powers that be, or if this is a sign of the falling system which can give rise to something new. Lets hope for the best.
OK, once again, I am the hardline minority on this brand of issue.
True transparency, if that is the aim of wikileaks, would be crippling to economies and governments everywhere - as it would be in your own household (imagine if you held a policy of true transparency with your spouse, your kids... or worse, if true transparency was forced upon you after the fact). But the stakes are much higher. If our economies were truly crippled, most of us would not have jobs, would not have social services, would not have legal recourse and would live in utter chaos - THERE WOULD BE NO GOVERNING IN AN ENVIRONMENT INIMICAL TO THE ACT OF GOVERNING.
Hate it all you want, but you benefit greatly from the system as it exists. Not to say it should not be scrutinized - I am just saying that the effective line of scrutiny is more elusive than many care to admit. There need to be checks and balances, and, as Vovin pointed out, the various news media used to fulfill this role; I am not entirely convinced that they do no longer, but i am convinced that an unmonitored unsourced entity like wikileaks will certainly not.
To govern is to accept responsibility for protecting your people. And to think that's always pretty is, frankly, naive. The world is a dirty place, and i personally don't begrudge it that; it is the natural and necessary course of human advancement (wow, I feel the heat of the flaming from here
). It's easy from a throne of relative luxury to sing the praises of absolute transparency and accountability; but look under you, the throne that elevates you above the dangerous flotsam and jetsam below was built on a foundation of diplomatic subterfuge. Necessary diplomatic subterfuge, if you value your present life.
We all lie. To save face, for the better good, to evade pointless conflict and to win allies who help keep us safe and protect our families - in the boardroom, the ballroom and the bedroom alike. Some lies conceal good; Some lies veil certain evil; some veil acts perceived as evil out of context - and to expect us to understand the global context of all governement actions and contexts is globally unrealistic and naive.
That is why we vote. To place our trust in someone to perpetrate perceived acts of "evil" in a context of a "greater" good. It is such a very fine line, but whether you like it or not, it is a line that will always exist in a stable and effective and, ironically, equal community. So I seem to stand alone in the recognition that some things need to happen behind closed doors. Honesty is the fool's policy when absolute and bare. The only thing I demand of a politician is that their acts, overt and covert, open and secret, plain and unscrutinized, be true and honest to the principles they sold to the people who voted for them. And even this, in the scale of things, is probably naive...
Trust is not an expectation of honesty, but rather faith that the trusted one's honesty AND dishonesty will not bring harm our way.
I have my asbestos suit on for the inevitable flaming.
JBArk
True transparency, if that is the aim of wikileaks, would be crippling to economies and governments everywhere - as it would be in your own household (imagine if you held a policy of true transparency with your spouse, your kids... or worse, if true transparency was forced upon you after the fact). But the stakes are much higher. If our economies were truly crippled, most of us would not have jobs, would not have social services, would not have legal recourse and would live in utter chaos - THERE WOULD BE NO GOVERNING IN AN ENVIRONMENT INIMICAL TO THE ACT OF GOVERNING.
Hate it all you want, but you benefit greatly from the system as it exists. Not to say it should not be scrutinized - I am just saying that the effective line of scrutiny is more elusive than many care to admit. There need to be checks and balances, and, as Vovin pointed out, the various news media used to fulfill this role; I am not entirely convinced that they do no longer, but i am convinced that an unmonitored unsourced entity like wikileaks will certainly not.
To govern is to accept responsibility for protecting your people. And to think that's always pretty is, frankly, naive. The world is a dirty place, and i personally don't begrudge it that; it is the natural and necessary course of human advancement (wow, I feel the heat of the flaming from here
). It's easy from a throne of relative luxury to sing the praises of absolute transparency and accountability; but look under you, the throne that elevates you above the dangerous flotsam and jetsam below was built on a foundation of diplomatic subterfuge. Necessary diplomatic subterfuge, if you value your present life.We all lie. To save face, for the better good, to evade pointless conflict and to win allies who help keep us safe and protect our families - in the boardroom, the ballroom and the bedroom alike. Some lies conceal good; Some lies veil certain evil; some veil acts perceived as evil out of context - and to expect us to understand the global context of all governement actions and contexts is globally unrealistic and naive.
That is why we vote. To place our trust in someone to perpetrate perceived acts of "evil" in a context of a "greater" good. It is such a very fine line, but whether you like it or not, it is a line that will always exist in a stable and effective and, ironically, equal community. So I seem to stand alone in the recognition that some things need to happen behind closed doors. Honesty is the fool's policy when absolute and bare. The only thing I demand of a politician is that their acts, overt and covert, open and secret, plain and unscrutinized, be true and honest to the principles they sold to the people who voted for them. And even this, in the scale of things, is probably naive...
Trust is not an expectation of honesty, but rather faith that the trusted one's honesty AND dishonesty will not bring harm our way.
I have my asbestos suit on for the inevitable flaming.
JBArk