Yet another zinc thread - DMT extraction

[lutinmalin]

Hi guys,

First of all, I'd like to thank everyone involved in this site, it's a true goldmine of knowledge. :thumb_up:

Now, I am planning on doing the DMT handbook extraction with Mimosa Hostilis.
I have read a lot about AB extraction (because I have very little knowledge in chemistry) and I've read that old plant material can be oxydised and contain DMT N-Oxide. I have no idea about the condition of my Mimosa, therefore I prefer to assume that part/most of its DMT is oxydized.
I have also read that zinc can be used to recover that oxyde and turn it back to DMT.
The thread I read states I should use 200mg of Zinc for 200mg of N-Oxide.
However, I have also read that Zinc can be used during the AB extraction, "in excess", between A and B specifically.
I have read somewhere that

Mimosa tenuiflora (= M. hostilis): DMT in root-bark at 0.31–11%

so I think that my plant material shouldn't contain more than 11% of DMT N-Oxide. Therefore, I would think I should need to add 110 grams per kilogram of Mimosa before the basification, stir for 2 hours, filter the zinc out then proceed with basification and finish the extraction as described in the DMT handbook.

Could you guys confirm if my assumptions are right? Should I wait for the acid tea to cool down before adding the zinc powder, or can it be done while the acid tea is still hot (right before adding basifying solution)?
Am I wasting too much zinc powder? Can zinc powder be reused?
I'm planning to use naphta, caustic soda, hydrochloric acid and demineralized water (and then acetone and fumarate acid to turn DMT freebase to salt).

Thanks in advance for your insight.

 

[arcologist]

It's not necessary to use that much zinc. I believe that 11% figure is probably missing a decimal point and should be 1.1%. If you really want to get technical, you can compute how many moles of DMT you expect, then use that many moles of zinc. So, for a 1kg extraction with expected yield of 1.1% or ~0.06 moles of DMT, you need at the very most 0.06 moles of zinc, or 3.8g. That assumes that ALL of the DMT is N-oxide, which is probably not the case.

I would say to start with 1-2 grams per liter of acid solution. Add more if it completely dissolves. Heat won't hurt, it will probably speed up the reaction.

 

[lutinmalin]

Wow, thanks, I really was going to waste a lot of zinc!

Add more if it completely dissolves

Is the zinc going to dissolve in the tea when it will deoxidize the DMT? I wasn't expecting this. If that's right, I simply have to slowly add zinc to the tea until it's saturated, right?
About your calculation, I have read that one should add zinc in a 1:1 ratio to DMT, so up to 11g in my case:

Why use 200 mg of zinc dust? The standard is to use 3 molecules of zinc dust for every 1 molecule of alkaloid N-Oxide for this to be very effective. DMT N-Oxide is about 3.12 times heavier than zinc. In terms of molecule count, 200 mg of DMT N-Oxide molecules would be equivalent to 64 mg of zinc molecules. Because we need 3 times as many zinc molecules as N-Oxide molecules, we would need 192 mg of zinc for 200 mg of DMT N-Oxide. Just to make things easy we round it up to 200 mg of zinc for 200 mg of DMT N-Oxide.

I'm almost ready to go now, I'm only missing the zinc and the fumaric acid, and they are on their way.

 

[arcologist]

Is the zinc going to dissolve in the tea when it will deoxidize the DMT? I wasn't expecting this. If that's right, I simply have to slowly add zinc to the tea until it's saturated, right?
About your calculation, I have read that one should add zinc in a 1:1 ratio to DMT, so up to 11g in my case:

Why use 200 mg of zinc dust? The standard is to use 3 molecules of zinc dust for every 1 molecule of alkaloid N-Oxide for this to be very effective. DMT N-Oxide is about 3.12 times heavier than zinc. In terms of molecule count, 200 mg of DMT N-Oxide molecules would be equivalent to 64 mg of zinc molecules. Because we need 3 times as many zinc molecules as N-Oxide molecules, we would need 192 mg of zinc for 200 mg of DMT N-Oxide. Just to make things easy we round it up to 200 mg of zinc for 200 mg of DMT N-Oxide.

Just add a few grams all at once. In the process of the reaction, the zinc dissolves in the acidic solution. This takes several hours.

It won't hurt to use more than a 1:1 molar ratio, increasing the amount of zinc will certainly speed up the reaction. If you were trying to reduce a solution that was known to contain only DMT N-oxide, it might be a good idea to double or triple the zinc content to ensure that all of the N-oxide was reduced to N,N-DMT. However, since it's unlikely you will have that much N-oxide, you're probably safe to use a 1:1 ratio (of moles, 1:3 by mass).

 

[downwardsfromzero]

It's called a dissolving metal reduction...

Some people think the N-oxide is more powerful.

Why not do a test extraction on a small amount first, to see if you really need the zinc?

 

[lutinmalin]

Ok thanks guys!

downwards: I've already ordered the zinc, so I'm gonna use it because I wouldn't know what else to do with it!

 

[Entheogenerator]

I'm planning to use naphta, caustic soda, hydrochloric acid and demineralized water (and then acetone and fumarate acid to turn DMT freebase to salt).

A little off-topic, but do you mind if I ask why you plan on salting the DMT freebase with acetone and fumaric acid? Do you intend to use it for pharmahuasca? I was under the impression that harmala alkaloids and the plants that produce them in any significant amount were prohibited in France...

 

[SnozzleBerry]

I have read somewhere that

Mimosa tenuiflora (= M. hostilis): DMT in root-bark at 0.31–11%

Whoever wrote that may have meant 1.1% not 11%.

~2%ish is standard for the upper limit of yield.

Just wanted to point that out

 

[lutinmalin]

Thanks for confirming this, Snozzly.

A little off-topic, but do you mind if I ask why you plan on salting the DMT freebase with acetone and fumaric acid?

I haven't read much about pharmahuasca yet (but now you got me curious!), I only want to turn my DMT to fumarate salt for a longer shelf life:

DMT freebase form
▪ More reactive (lower shelf life)
▪ Low melting point (easily smokable)
▪ Insoluble in water

DMT salt form
▪ Less reactive (greater shelf life)
▪ High melting point
▪ Water soluble (snortable, injectable)

To be honest, I must say I don't care much for laws anyway, especially when said laws are written by people who don't have a clue about what they talk about, people who consider weed, lsd and heroin as equally addictive and dangerous.
I'd like to relocate to a nicer country, somewhere near the Equator line, I'm thinking either Bolivia or Indonesia... but I'd have to dump my girlfriend to do so... *sigh*.



On a side note, I've just read about "the dreaded underdose" and I'm quite surprised. DMT really seems to be one of a kind.

 

[Onthekarm]

Hello !

Sorry for posting here even if it's an old tread but I wondering if you finaly use your zinc ? Or someone else. (I can't post on other section)

Also I was interrested by using some at the acid step of the A/B but before make a wash with heptane for the zinc, by the way if nasty compound are willing to migrate in the final product maybe the 'defat zinc step' will help to have a cleaner product am I right ?

Because I read somehere some of the zinc will be dissolved by the way the filtration could be useless or ineffective.

Thanks for your help

 

[blue.magic]

I am also interested on how to filter out zinc. Wouldn't it form sodium zincate during the base step? (Zinc reacts with NaOH in aq. solution) Would it stay dissolved in water as such, not migrating to the organic layer?

I am doing mostly ATB extractions and not using zinc because of the contamination risk. But it may be OK for A/B.

downwards: I've already ordered the zinc, so I'm gonna use it because I wouldn't know what else to do with it!

Well I think you can use zinc to reduce harmaline to THH, for example.

 

[Onthekarm]

I am also interested on how to filter out zinc. Wouldn't it form sodium zincate during the base step? (Zinc reacts with NaOH in aq. solution) Would it stay dissolved in water as such, not migrating to the organic layer?

I am doing mostly ATB extractions and not using zinc because of the contamination risk. But it may be OK for A/B.

Concerning ATB and A/B I think the same problem occur because if zinc stay in acid then when moving to base step the same reaction occur with NaOh.

 

[Rick Sanchez]

Skip the zinc. You don’t really need to worry about oxides too much. Although the analysis you posted was true for one sample of mhrb, there is an enormous variation between samples. Don’t overcomplicate it. You’ll be able to get an incredibly pure product from decent mhrb without ever even thinking about zinc.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Zinc maybe for harmalas, but not for DMT.

 

[blue.magic]

One more thing (maybe related):

I have read somewere that NaOH in mineral water makes "all kinds of nasty salts". So the issue of having potentially harmful salts in the product may also be present with plain tap water.

Some people use de-ionized water because of this.

I however doubt the salts created by strong base are that nasty and filtered water is okay, no need for de-ionized water.

I believe MHRB or ACRB itself will release lots of minerals to the water so salts will be created anyway.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

With NaOH in the context of zinc you'd just be getting sodium zincate - notwithstanding whatever impurities might be in the zinc. Cadmium and mercury being particularly infamous, I suppose.

I have read somewere that NaOH in mineral water makes "all kinds of nasty salts". So the issue of having potentially harmful salts in the product may also be present with plain tap water.

With the greatest respect, this hardly constitutes useful information. It comes across as vague hearsay propagated by someone with the slenderest grasp of the scientific principles involved (I mean the originator of the quote). To form a "nasty salt" the sodium hydroxide would have to react with - or, to form - a toxic anion. Why would something that forms a toxic anion be present in mineral water in any significant quantity?

So I would say your doubts are correct here. However, another reason to use deionised water would be in order to avoid any precipitates that might form when adding base to hard water.

 

[blue.magic]

However, another reason to use deionised water would be in order to avoid any precipitates that might form when adding base to hard water.

Thanks for clarifying that. Now I can sleep calmly and also use filtered water (which I get for free) instead of purchased DI water.