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3 hour brews vs 20min brews for ayahuasca

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ninja_boss

Rising Star
I was comparing a recipe between dmt-nexus and one from erowid.
ms_manic_minxx's method is obviously the most time consuming at a total of 9 hours compared to erowid's 1-2 hour method. I've never tried ayahuasca before, and right now I'm leaning towards erowid's method as my maiden flight.

What are your thoughts on the two recipes.

Thanks.
 
^I dissagree personally.. doesnt matter how shredded it is...extended boils are ALWAYS more effective in my experience from all the brewing I have done..doesnt mean that quicker brews arent active, but there always seems to be more actives in the bark, powdered or not..I have had powdered vine, shredded vine and whole vine I shredded myself..and short 1 hour boils never got out all of the alkaloids.

Im not saying you wont get good yields, just that im my experience there is still actives left..so if you do quick boils like that save all your vine and brew it again and add that to your next brew..

I have taken vine that I brewed for like 9 hours, and reboiled it, drank it all..resulting in surprisingly difficult experiences.

Extensive brewing is time consuming, but for me its worth it, Alot of effort and intention goes into my brews and it always pays off..but I also brew hundreds of grams of vine at a time so one brew is many doses..
 
I think that the law of diminishing returns plays out here. I don’t know what the real numbers are, but imagine that it’s something like this:

1 hour boil removes 85% of alkaloids
2 hour boil removes 95% of alkaloids
3 hour boil removes 97% of alkaloids
4 hour boil removes 98% of alkaloids
5 hour boil removes 98.5% of alkaloids

etc.

You get the idea. A longer boil will remove more actives, but for each additional unit of time, there is a diminished amount of additional alkaloids. It would be interesting to actually test this. I’ve done four 30 minute boils with black caapi and got yields as high as 2.2%. I wonder what the yield would have been if I did three 3-hour boils? Or 3 15-minute boils?

Regardless, if you have the time and don’t mind higher gas/electric bills, then longer boiling is never a bad thing.
 
these are good points. i agree with gibran that the finer the shred the less time needed to get the alkaloids out. i would bet there's not much noticeable difference between 3 washes in 1 hour vs. 3 washes in 3 hours when using ground up vine.

it makes sense to me. you would have close to 100% surface area. how long could it possibly take for boiling water molecules to penetrate each tiny particle releasing the alkaloids? 10-20 min tops?

i know for a fact that the more finely i shred my whole vine the stronger and denser the brew gets.
 
i would go with 3 1 hour brews with fine fine shreaded caapi, olympus mon pionted out in another one of my post that if it is not shredded fine like paper thin you need long brews or it will not work like mine did not... now mmm loves aya and lows the brew that's part of her ritual, i did it her way and enjoyed it much more with the time i felt like part of me was in it when i drank it.

but the 1 hr brews 3 times does the trick when im just in a blah blah hurry hurry mood.
 
olympus mon said:
... i would bet there's not much noticeable difference between 3 washes in 1 hour vs. 3 washes in 3 hours when using ground up vine.
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There will be noticeable difference if within the same time you do more quick washes.

olympus mon said:
you would have close to 100% surface area.
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Not possible. 100% would be if your mhrb is powdered so finely that every particle contains a single cell.

olympus mon said:
how long could it possibly take for boiling water molecules to penetrate each tiny particle releasing the alkaloids? 10-20 min tops?
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If your realy mean EVERY SINGLE CELL, then it will take MUCH longer. Even mhrb that you think has been completely exhausted will contain millions of unbroken cells and you can always squeeze a few more milligrams, or micrograms of alks from it.

When to stop is a matter of practical efficiency.

Eranik said:
Doesn't longer/more boiling destroy some of the active compounds?
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No. IME, more boiling results in higher yield.
 
the less you boil it the less nausea you get,couse the longer is boil the longer tannins extraction is, so swim thinks long boils are unnecessary..you could boil vfor a lot but you would need to clarify your aya from tannins binding em with white from eggs, and more time more gas or elctricity...,swim would prefer to waste a bit of alks
 
DiMiTriX said:
the less you boil it the less nausea you get,couse the longer is boil the longer tannins extraction is
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Ooops! I forgot we're talking about aya. You're right, for aya it does make a difference. CWE and THP are even better.

A day-long settling in a fridge also is helpful.
 
I have noticed 6 hour boils are considerably weaker than 9 hour boils. I have not noticed a difference between 9 and 12 hour boils.
 
SWIM's experience, volume of water matters more than duration for boils. Six 30-minute boils led to clear water and as strong a journey as a previous 3x3 with material from the same batch.
 
gibran2 said:
I think that the law of diminishing returns plays out here. I don’t know what the real numbers are, but imagine that it’s something like this:

1 hour boil removes 85% of alkaloids
2 hour boil removes 95% of alkaloids
3 hour boil removes 97% of alkaloids
4 hour boil removes 98% of alkaloids
5 hour boil removes 98.5% of alkaloids

etc.

You get the idea. A longer boil will remove more actives, but for each additional unit of time, there is a diminished amount of additional alkaloids. It would be interesting to actually test this. I’ve done four 30 minute boils with black caapi and got yields as high as 2.2%. I wonder what the yield would have been if I did three 3-hour boils? Or 3 15-minute boils?

Regardless, if you have the time and don’t mind higher gas/electric bills, then longer boiling is never a bad thing.
Click to expand...
I think the returns are far less than that unless you are swapping out the water each hour.

It might save time to do 3x 1hr boils with 3x smaller amounts of liquid.
 
ragabr said:
SWIM's experience, volume of water matters more than duration for boils. Six 30-minute boils led to clear water and as strong a journey as a previous 3x3 with material from the same batch.
Click to expand...
mumbles said:
I think the returns are far less than that unless you are swapping out the water each hour.

It might save time to do 3x 1hr boils with 3x smaller amounts of liquid.
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Yes – I agree. I think the number of boils probably plays a bigger role in extraction efficiency than the length of each boil. I do four 30-minute boils, and by the 4th boil the liquid is very pale.

ms_manic_minxx said:
I do go through a ton of water... 60+ liters/cook in total... wide pots evaporate quickly.... HMMM...
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I always keep the lid on my pot during the boil. The idea is to limit water loss as much as possible: Less water = less capacity to hold extracted substances.


Looks like we have lots of variables: amount of water per boil, covered vs. uncovered, length of each boil, number of boils, gentle vs. vigorous boil.

I’m out of caapi right now, but when I get more I’d like to try some comparisons. I’ll boil in a couple of different ways, then extract the alkaloids to see how they compare.
 
We can treat this like the acid boil of any a/b, its exactly the same process. To be efficient we'd need the lid on, slight excess of water (1 inch past the plant material? dmt salts we'd use here are very soluble in water), a food acid, and 3x 30min-1hr vigorous boils. That's it.
 
Wouldn't using 3x/volume of water(say 3 gallons in 1 pot for 3 hours) be the same as doing 3- 1 hour boils(with 1 gallon in each pot)?
 
random321 said:
Wouldn't using 3x/volume of water(say 3 gallons in 1 pot for 3 hours) be the same as doing 3- 1 hour boils(with 1 gallon in each pot)?
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No – with multiple boils you are replacing the solution multiple times with fresh water. Fresh water can more efficiently extract substances from the vine.
 
Yeah its all about the distribution coefficient, you only get xx% each time so after 3 fresh boils you should have most of it and a 4th doesn't extract enough to be worth while.
 
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