4 Dimensions and E=mc²

[NotTwo]

I'm on holiday at the moment and decided I'd read a wonderful book called 'Why E=mc²' by Brian Cox, which explains how Einstein came to his theory of general relativity.

In Newtonian physics there were 3 dimensions and time and this worked absolutely fine as long as nothing moved too fast. However it became apparent that distance and time were only relative concepts and at higher speeds (especially getting near the speed of light) they were entirely subjective. Einstein realised that this was because we saw the 3 physical dimensions and time as separate things and that if we combined them - into a unit he called spacetime - then you could explain why these distortions happened at high speeds. (This is a real simplification because it ended up explaining masses of stuff and allowed particle physics to start to describe how the whole cosmos worked.)

What keeps on coming back to me when reading about his realisation was what happened to me the very first time I smoked (a rather large dose of!) dmt. At some point during the entry phase I had the clear impression that time was somehow folding in on itself (maybe wrong terminology) to create an extra dimension to the existing 3 dimensions. The world I ended up in therefore was a 4 dimensional world very much as described by the mathematics of Einstein.

I'm just wondering if anyone else has ever had this sensation with vaping dmt. I'd love to hear if this is a common occurrence.

 

[hixidom]

I've certainly had experiences of time as a spatial dimension (as in eternalism), but that was on other psychedelics (LSD, 25I,...). There's always a conundrum in such 4D spaces, which is this: When you are outside of time, i.e. seeing time as a spatial dimension, what are you thinking with respect to? Is there some higher-order time dimension? Not sure if it would interest you, but there's a wiki article on this. You might find this Wiki section useful as well.

Anyways, thanks for the post. Sounds like you could probably read [translations of] Einstein's original papers on relativity if you were interested. Apparently they are remarkably short and simple. Otherwise just remember that dimensionality is simply how many numbers are required to describe an object. For location (in time and space), that seems to be 4, but an arbitrary set of properties will result in a particular dimensionality. For example, if I chose to describe particles in terms of x-y-z-t position, x-y-z momentum, and charge, then particles are described by 8 coordinates and I could reformulate physics based on that...

 

[Global]

This is a common occurrence. If you look into tesseracts, which are essentially four dimensional cubes, you can observe a common geometric aesthetic as with the DMT experience. Computer models can generate higher than four dimensional geometry rendered on your two dimensional screen, and I see little reason to include time as the fourth dimension when extra spatial dimensions are clearly both theoretical as in the case of the computer models, and found "in nature" via the DMT experience. These dimensions are created by juxtaposing planes at right angles to each other.

 

[NotTwo]

Not sure if it would interest you, but there's a wiki article on this. You might find this Wiki section useful as well.

Anyways, thanks for the post. Sounds like you could probably read [translations of] Einstein's original papers on relativity if you were interested. Apparently they are remarkably short and simple. Otherwise just remember that dimensionality is simply how many numbers are required to describe an object. For location (in time and space), that seems to be 4, but an arbitrary set of properties will result in a particular dimensionality. For example, if I chose to describe particles in terms of x-y-z-t position, x-y-z momentum, and charge, then particles are described by 8 coordinates and I could reformulate physics based on that...

Thanks for the links hixidom - just been looking at them. Very interesting. And if you're a physicist then excuse the absurd simplication of Einstein's theory above - you must have cringed Having got as far as understanding the basic formula I'd love to delve deeper.

 

[NotTwo]

This is a common occurrence. If you look into tesseracts, which are essentially four dimensional cubes, you can observe a common geometric aesthetic as with the DMT experience. Computer models can generate higher than four dimensional geometry rendered on your two dimensional screen, and I see little reason to include time as the fourth dimension when extra spatial dimensions are clearly both theoretical as in the case of the computer models, and found "in nature" via the DMT experience. These dimensions are created by juxtaposing planes at right angles to each other.

Thanks Global. Yes, those tesseracts look very familiar! The sensation of time somehow merging into the physical dimensions was something I've tried to explain to people who haven't taken entheogens and the result has always been that they assume it's some kind of hallucination. It was in fact a very clear process that occurred and what it produced was a world that continued to have those qualities up until the end of the experience.

 

[Global]

I'm going to quote myself from elsewhere in regards to my view on the distinction between spatial and temporal dimensions.

Also, I think somewhere some time back everyone got used to the idea of time as the fourth dimension. I don't see a need for this distinction, and it really doesn't make too much sense to me. From my journeys in hyperspace, it seems quite clear that we can add extra spatial dimensions without the need of talking about time as the fourth dimension.

It makes more sense to me that we probably have a certain set of spatial dimensions along with a (possibly smaller set) of temporal dimensions. So let's start at the bottom up, and see how far we get. In geometry we have a zero dimensional point. It is really more theoretical than anything. If we think about a zero dimensional point in time that would be a moment...you know that one that just went by....and here comes another...did you see it? Of course it's easy to see how that's just as theoretical and conceptual as the zero dimensional point in space.

So moving on, we have a one dimensional line in geometry so our corresponding temporal dimension would be a linear one dimensional line in time. This seems to be the way that we tend to experience time (or at least the way we tend to think about the way that we experience time regardless if it's true or not). In two dimensional time (which by my guess would be closer to the way we probably experience time on a day to day basis) time is still somewhat linear, but it's got more flexing room for distortion. I view this as somewhat akin to time flying when you're having fun seeming unusually slow at the dentist's office, but things don't get too wacky in this temporal dimension.

Three dimensional time is something I feel I've experienced on DMT. Can I be sure? Of course not. I can't be sure of anything I've just said, but during some of my godhead experiences, as I approach the godhead, the "particles of time" quite literally seem to dilate into spheroids. I want to stress it's not something that I see visually, but it is perceived in some fashion though I can't really describe it. Time expands and expands and expands until it comes to a grinding halt. This reminds me of the "highest" theoretical spatial dimension which might assume that it encapsulates all of the other spatial dimensions to come before it, and is therefore the 1 sum of the whole. This is how time comes across in the presence of the godhead to me which seems interestingly fitting anyway now that I think about it. Now I don't know if that particular dimension is the fourth temporal dimension or higher, but I see it as a better way to address time than to have a bunch of spatial dimensions and then the fourth one is time and then we're on to whatever. It just seems so inconsistent

 

[hixidom]

if you're a physicist then excuse the absurd simplication of Einstein's theory above - you must have cringed

On the contrary, physicists should be the first to admit that 100% of our current understanding is wrong. I wish I could see these theories with a mind as fresh as yours.

Having got as far as understanding the basic formula I'd love to delve deeper.

If you get a BS in physics and you have a decent GPA, they'll pay you to come back and get your PhD (true for sciences in general). Otherwise, You can go far with just Wikipedia, online lectures, online lecture notes, etc.

I think that using physics to describe a psychedelic experience will, in general, require a reformulation or extension of some aspect of physics. This means that integrating your psychedelic experience with a physics model will require a balancing act of learning from mainstream physics whilst not getting trapped in the mainstream framework. I used to have psychedelic ideas about physics, but nowadays they tend to be dominated by what I have learned.

 

[NotTwo]

I think that using physics to describe a psychedelic experience will, in general, require a reformulation or extension of some aspect of physics. This means that integrating your psychedelic experience with a physics model will require a balancing act of learning from mainstream physics whilst not getting trapped in the mainstream framework. I used to have psychedelic ideas about physics, but nowadays they tend to be dominated by what I have learned.

I did something similar last year to try to understand quantum physics and found that pretty amazing too. Interesting to see how mainstream physicists could list the experiments and show the math but didn't seem to understand the enormity of what they were proving. Also none of them seemed to then want to take it further to an understanding of consciousness and from there onto non duality. Think they need to take more psychedelics in these science departments to show them the reality of their theories

I guess I loved the E=mc2 explanations because I could actually follow the math and that had a beauty in its own right.

 

[hixidom]

I guess it could also be argued that, when you're deep in the psychedelic experience, you understand reality on a level that surpasses modern-day physics, philosophy, language, etc. Perhaps what you feel while using psychedelics is the purest understanding of reality that one could ask for.

 

[5 Dimensional Nick]

I've seen "hallucinations" that appear to me to fold into higher spatial dimensions. Never felt time to be any different though. On K however I've seen time "morph" into space.

 

[5 Dimensional Nick]

Computer models can generate higher than four dimensional geometry rendered on your two dimensional screen

Er.... excuse me but..... WTF? Explain please

 

[5 Dimensional Nick]

Global i'm guessing you mean information about higher dimensional mathematical models?

I just know rendered to mean you can see it (CGI nerd I am).

 

[Global]

I have seen the upper spatial dimensions, but I have also had the sensation of time expanding and slowing to a halt. What I mean is how it is possible to see the projections of multidimensional geometries on your computer, as with YouTube videos of the upper dimensional figures like tesseracts, penteracts, 120-cells, the E8 (eight dimensional) etc...They are geometric models. The aesthetics of these computer generated models match the aesthetic of multidimensional visuals from, which in a sense legitimizes the computer generated models. Tesseracts in a sense are kind of boring because trying to imagine what a four dimensional world would be like with just a tesseract as your model would be as if trying to get someone to imagine a three dimensional world, with only having been presented with a cube. It is in many ways a building block off which other more geometrically complex, interesting and representational/referential structures can be built.

When I say they are being on projected on your 2D screen, this would be akin to watching live footage of a tennis match on your computer screen. The tennis match has 3D geometry, but it is being projected onto your 2D screen. The illusion of 3D-ness is a trick of the brain through analysis of perspective and right angles. Right angles are key to how generating the upper dimensions is possible. This was demonstrated to me in a "lesson" by entities early on in my experimentations through a visual demonstration, and I later discovered from researching how to draw "2D" tesseracts that right angles are the mechanism that is used to juxtapose one plane (or dimension) to the preceding one.

 

[sleepermustawaken]

After reading your posts...

Why do you think it is that human beings are capable to access higher dimensional sensory data? Moreover, why can't we in everyday consciousness?

 

[tseuq]

Based on this presence of nowness, I don't think of time as a higher dimension, more as a mind conecpt.

Why do you think it is that human beings are capable to access higher dimensional sensory data?

Can we be sure, that what we percieve is information of higher dimensions?

Moreover, why can't we in everyday consciousness?

This kind of information doesn't appear to be nessecary for our survival and reproduction. The brain reduces the incoming information on the parts which seem to be important to orient ourselves in a world how we percieve it. How we, our bodies and especially the brain, are now might be the result of an ongoing evolutionary process (genetic evolution) and this specific regions, or networks of cells, in the brain, which are responsible for encoding this "unnessecary" information, might be (still) available but their activation is mostly inhibited or reduced to a minimum.


tseuq

 

[hixidom]

why can't we in everyday consciousness?

We do access higher dimensions in everyday consciousness: When you look at a scene you perceive three spatial dimensions + hue + brightness... That's at least 5 dimensions right there, meaning every object in your field of view could be described by at least 5 numbers. I say "at least" because if you add layers of perception such as "usefulness", "hazardousness", "is it alive?", etc. (which are all things that one might reasonably be aware of when they glance over objects), then the dimensionality of visual perception alone can become very large; e.g. 8-dimensional by my ever-rising count, and I haven't even included the other senses yet.

 

[sleepermustawaken]

why can't we in everyday consciousness?

We do access higher dimensions in everyday consciousness: When you look at a scene you perceive three spatial dimensions + hue + brightness... That's at least 5 dimensions right there, meaning every object in your field of view could be described by at least 5 numbers. I say "at least" because if you add layers of perception such as "usefulness", "hazardousness", "is it alive?", etc. (which are all things that one might reasonably be aware of when they glance over objects), then the dimensionality of visual perception alone can become very large; e.g. 8-dimensional by my ever-rising count, and I haven't even included the other senses yet.

I was refering to why people can't see hyperspace but tseuq suggest it no evolutionary value atm

I then ask what value does DMT have if (from an evolutionist perspective) we only exist to survive and procreate? I have always wanted to ask "what value does dmt have?" but was afrai people will give me the wrong answers.

In reply to your post I like to think of everything connected to higher dimensions, every point being joined and part of a higher spatial dimension just like a dot is part of a line and a line is part of a cube and on and on. So in this sense I am seeing part of higher dimensions everyday just not realising it.

 

[sleepermustawaken]

Based on this presence of nowness, I don't think of time as a higher dimension, more as a mind conecpt.

I certainly was hoping psychedelics could help one get a different perspective on what time really is but it seems not so.

Why do you think it is that human beings are capable to access higher dimensional sensory data?

Can we be sure, that what we percieve is information of higher dimensions?

I am not sure, it seems the most plausible thing to assume out of everything else (ie what we know about qm, dimensional physics etc.)

I also was just paraphrasing from some guy on here who did a lecture on what is it like to be a machine elf? He was saying how dmt just makes u percieve sense data from a higher dimension or another reality.

This is it here

 

[tseuq]

Based on this presence of nowness, I don't think of time as a higher dimension, more as a mind conecpt.

I certainly was hoping psychedelics could help one get a different perspective on what time really is but it seems not so.

To me, "time" is more like a mental frame, we may started with these concepts with the observation of our body processes, day/night, the stars and the seasons, where people realized that everything comes in circles. Like the expanding universe has its time from the beginning of the big bang to its end, the movement inbetween can be somehow measured, this is maybe the first timecircle at all. So they observed different time frames for everything, thus time is also relative and because it needs a point of view from where someone sets start/end of a period it is still a concept because now is all there is. Past and future are just ideas... whereas nowness appears as an outlasting stream of consciousness.

I then ask what value does DMT have if (from an evolutionist perspective) we only exist to survive and procreate?

I don't know anything and I am cautious with ideas of "seeing humans as something special". All these thoughts end in the same impasse of believing in something and one is free to choose if s/he wants to believe in something at all.

The value of DMT to me is, that this is a f***ing freaking substance, along with some others, which let me experience the unbelieveable, the unspeakable mysterium in a way of ........ and after this, all I do is to appreciate life more than ever. OM

love, tseuq

 

[Global]

why can't we in everyday consciousness?

We do access higher dimensions in everyday consciousness: When you look at a scene you perceive three spatial dimensions + hue + brightness... That's at least 5 dimensions right there, meaning every object in your field of view could be described by at least 5 numbers. I say "at least" because if you add layers of perception such as "usefulness", "hazardousness", "is it alive?", etc. (which are all things that one might reasonably be aware of when they glance over objects), then the dimensionality of visual perception alone can become very large; e.g. 8-dimensional by my ever-rising count, and I haven't even included the other senses yet.

I feel like it is inconsistent to label hue and brightness in dimensions that are comparable to the other 3 spatial dimensions. In a certain way, the word "dimension" can be defined as a category of a quality, but when talking about 3D, it would be an inconsistent use of the term. It's like two different definitions of dimension are at play. Sure, there can be a lot of qualities to visual perception, but I don't feel that it truly affects the dimensionality of the perception. Besides, you can have a one dimensional line that has a hue and brightness. Would you call that line a 3D object then? I don't think I would. Hue and brightness may be called dimensions of color for whatever that is worth, making the aforementioned line a 1D object with 2D color. I don't see why you would pile them on top of each other. Hyperspace presents geometry that appears to be extradimensional so far as spatial dimensions go, and the aesthetic of this multidimensional geometry is validated as being genuinely multidimensional so far as mathematics and computer simulations have independently created the matching aesthetic when it comes to rendering 4D imagery and upwards.