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Considerations with Regards to Attunement of Consciousness and Experience of Esoteric Phenomena
- Thread starter Voidmatrix
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Panpsychic
Titanium Teammate
As yet unrecognized by who? 'Science' has almost no authority with regards the terrain of conscious experience and mind let alone higher states of consciousness and esoteric phenomena. They aren't the people to go to with those questions, and they rightly aren't given that position in the psychedelic community at large or spiritual circles.
Its akin to asking a laymans opinion on surveying the land, when you have expert geologists at hand with millenia of tradition behind them. The level of depth with which they will be looking and understanding what they are seeing and how to work with it and what it means, are vastly different.
Where the scientific method is useful - understanding physical phenomena- is where the range of discussion and disciple should be kept.
Beyond this, the various systems of thought and practice for working with the mind at advanced levels that have been refined over centuries will naturally be your guide as you continue your explorations and realizations.
I don’t agree,
You’re framing science as if it only applies to physical phenomena, but that’s not the case. Science is a method, and it is already applied to consciousness, psychedelics, and related experiences. The fact that results don’t confirm the conclusions you would like to see doesn’t make them invalid, nor something to dismiss.
Saying “the community” rightly gives no authority to science is also off. Many in the psychedelic community, like members here, don’t accept the kinds of claims you present as truth, so there is no single standard here.
I believe in the Middle way: we all can learn from each other and progress even further.
There's no need to be stuck in names or authority games. We should work together and make an honest investigation into reality. Every human is a scientist and a mystic.
We simply don't know our hidden potential. It's time to make people curious again. We should get out of the "there is nothing left to discover" attitude and embrace life.
There's no need to be stuck in names or authority games. We should work together and make an honest investigation into reality. Every human is a scientist and a mystic.
We simply don't know our hidden potential. It's time to make people curious again. We should get out of the "there is nothing left to discover" attitude and embrace life.
Here&Now
Titanium Teammate
While it's probably true that the stuff I'm talking about is somewhat outside of our current science's ability to analyze, I don't think it's going to remain that way forever, or perhaps not even much longer. From my perspective, the things I'm talking about are experientially obviously real, with heavy implications for the tangible and intangible alike. I think science will take its rightful place in their acknowledgement, because these phenomena are simply something that's there to be discovered, studied, and measured. When that happens, I imagine our physics and technological capabilities will start to dip into seemingly "supernatural" territory, with that word eventually losing its mysterious meaning as the supernatural becomes the natural.
Also, when I say it's currently unrecognized, I'm mostly referring to the wider populace more so than the scientific community specifically. The amount of people who are aware of it is tiny, and those with genuine direct experience are even smaller still. Basically just mystics and serious psychedelic users.
Here&Now
Titanium Teammate
Right on, well said.
Here&Now
Titanium Teammate
I think this is a fair argument. I'm also pretty bold in making fantastic claims, but like I've mentioned in previous posts, I don't expect others to take my word on faith, and I can fully sympathize when they don't. I believe the truth of this kind of stuff will eventually come out on its own, essentially because I have faith in the scientific method to discover it at the appropriate time.
It reminds me of the story regarding how doctors' hand-washing was discovered to prevent death in surgery patients. The doctor who discovered it was ridiculed mercilessly by his community because scientific advancement wasn't yet advanced enough to factor in the effects of germs. But the truth eventually came out and was integrated, because it couldn't help but be any other way.
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Panpsychic
Titanium Teammate
What you are describing as having overlap with 'scientific method' as it pertains to exploration of consciousness, in an endeavour that far far precedes what is commonly associated with science as it is understood and practiced today.
In fact you are unintentionally endorsing these systems of thought and practice that I mentioned, which have made this an endeavour to be undertaken by personal testing and verification individually for centuries.
Science does indeed deal with physical and measurable phenomena as its overwhelming focus, this is where it has its success and where it has gained its credibility.
While there have been attempts within science to explore the terrain of consciousness and psychedelics, this is again done primarily through exploring physical correlates of these experiences - neuroscience and pharmacology, behaviour etc. This is unsurprising as noted, the study of physical phenomena with a testable methodology is what science is based upon.
The domain of subjective experience however is not science which is why they struggle. If we want it to be part of the future of science, then the term 'science' itself becomes vastly more encompassing than it has heretofore been used and will eventually come to incorporate or integrate some of the systems discussed.
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Isn't this kind of a faith argument? People apply all kinds of different systems to the same things: religion, logic, etc.
Just because science is applied to it doesn't mean that the conclusions drawn by applying the method are completely exhaustive.
One love
Of course you can say that science is not exhaustive no one can really deny that. But what is the alternative? No scientist would claim the method gives complete or final proof, it’s the building of or reinforcing of theory. Still, it is the best we have. That is the problem with spirituality and similar thoughts, they stop inquiry and move from knowing to believing. And that is exactly why in Dutch we call science wetenschap (knowledge-ship) and distinguish it from geloof (belief).
Panpsychic
Titanium Teammate
This distinction may apply to faith based belief systems, but they have little in common with systems that have developed a testable methodology of consciousness exploration, an endeavour that parallels the psychedelic venture. This is why meditation and psychedelics and their relationship has been so extensively studied; they are complementary and mutually compatible paths. This is essentially as close as we have to a 'science of mind'.
The materialistic scientific venture into finding neural correlates and the like of these experiences is fine and has its place, but it is peripheral.
Nice name - "knowledgeship."
I agree with much of what you say, @Varallo. I just want to highlight two points which often get overlooked by a lot of fellow science enthusiasts.
Firstly, what is called science is in fact a specific lineage, a specific tradition of knowledgeship with it's own premises, worldview, ideology, and cultural baggage among numerous lineages rising from different times and cultures. İt's not like all other knowledgeships are just blind faith cultures with no disciplined study methods of their own. Sure, this modern science lineage boasts superior rigor, accuracy, and global collaboration compared to other ones. But that doesn't mean any non conforming "knowledges" from other knowledgeships are surely false. They may have their own superiorities in studying domains that the modern western cultural lineage is not acquainted with or is not comfortable with. İt's good to stick to modern science as a grounding foundation, but I do sense phenomena that science has not yet confirmed and I will not write them off just because it has not been certified by the high council of our times.
And that brings us to the second point, which is what @Here&Now has been saying. Just because science hasn't so far proven certain things doesn't mean that it will never prove them.
İ prefer to not give over my power to an institution, or anything other than myself for determining what is real and what is not, for myself.
I agree with much of what you say, @Varallo. I just want to highlight two points which often get overlooked by a lot of fellow science enthusiasts.
Firstly, what is called science is in fact a specific lineage, a specific tradition of knowledgeship with it's own premises, worldview, ideology, and cultural baggage among numerous lineages rising from different times and cultures. İt's not like all other knowledgeships are just blind faith cultures with no disciplined study methods of their own. Sure, this modern science lineage boasts superior rigor, accuracy, and global collaboration compared to other ones. But that doesn't mean any non conforming "knowledges" from other knowledgeships are surely false. They may have their own superiorities in studying domains that the modern western cultural lineage is not acquainted with or is not comfortable with. İt's good to stick to modern science as a grounding foundation, but I do sense phenomena that science has not yet confirmed and I will not write them off just because it has not been certified by the high council of our times.
And that brings us to the second point, which is what @Here&Now has been saying. Just because science hasn't so far proven certain things doesn't mean that it will never prove them.
İ prefer to not give over my power to an institution, or anything other than myself for determining what is real and what is not, for myself.
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I agree.
The problem is that most methaphysical ideas have been researched and disproved many times over, also it’s kind of silly to spent time on things that lack mechanism, like the pointless research into homeopathy, other then providing humanity with an great zero field, there’s zero need for more research as it has been proven many times over its just a sham.
Edit: methaphysical is not meant in the philosophical sense. See
Post in thread 'Considerations with Regards to Attunement of Consciousness and Experience of Esoteric Phenomena'
Considerations with Regards to Attunement of Consciousness and Experience of Esoteric Phenomena
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Yep! The alternative may not exist, but the best we have doesnt mean we ignore what we take for granted. Saying "this is the way it is," is different than, "this is the best we have a can do and it might be missing a whole lot. But we can be honest with ourselves gives us a more proper orientation in the utilization of our systems.
And you're right! This is why many who are into esoteric and mystical topics don't like talking to me: I have inquiry, and I want others to have further inquiry too!
One love
I don't know about homeopathy. Honestly I can't see how it works either, but I have friends who swear by it. İt's not my thing.
But for example plant spirits is my thing
the experience of a consistent certain character of any given "teacher plant/mushroom" is repeatable. But science is not interested in exploring this, for various reasons. Just one of them being that it is not profitable for the health industry that funds it.
But for example plant spirits is my thing
the experience of a consistent certain character of any given "teacher plant/mushroom" is repeatable. But science is not interested in exploring this, for various reasons. Just one of them being that it is not profitable for the health industry that funds it.
A personal anecdote:
Despite my parents being very scientifically minded (my father is a researcher), when I was a child and started having allergies they ended up taking me to a homeopathic doctor. The reason seems to be that my doctor wanted to put me on corticosteroids (so in that sense it was a better option, but I could just have had antihistamines...).
I remember the little sugar pills seemed to help a little, when it was not too much. However, when I actually needed it because it was bad, they did nothing. To me it's clear that it was placebo.
I liked the crunchiness of the little pills, so eventually I ended up saving them to then take a huge amount at once and chew it. Of course, no effect from what should have been a massive "overdose"
In the Tibetan tradition, which is very much akin to science, they usually apologize at the beginning of a commentary by saying that all the mistakes are due to their lack of understanding, and so on. No tradition of human knowledge is perfect, because words are concepts and approximations of reality. Continuing my example, Tibetans would say that the Dharma exists in the mind of a practitioner, not in the words or debates about it.
Well al points towards the power of suggestions in psychedelic states, I for example was never really aware of these concepts and have never experienced them as such. I do however have always had contact with entities, the personal theorie I have is that it’s mostly just me talking to myself mixed with intense mixed thoughts during the DMT experience.I don't know about homeopathy. Honestly I can't see how it works either, but I have friends who swear by it. İt's not my thing.
But for example plant spirits is my thing
Thank you for sharing
, I’m not sure how, but you manage to always surprise me with your thoughts, and help me think. These ideas closely align with my constructivist view, as I believe in the end everything is an construct of one’s self. You just added the idea that there are also things (the nature of reality) which do not exist in language or discussion, but are simply part of your being. I find this a really interesting concept, because in a way it feels new to me, really thanks for helping me out.
An idea: when we study phenoma that we attribute to a specific source we may not so much be seeing the source as we are reflections of it. We then tend to mistake the reflection for the source. Think about the difference of information between the source of information and the reflection.
One love
One love
Here&Now
Titanium Teammate
Entity contact on powerful psychedelics can certainly be provocative of belief in otherwordly things. What's interesting about this community is that I bet the majority of us have had this extraordinary experience. That's not something you can say about most circles.
If you didn't have a preexisting framework that leans towards it being impossible, or at least unlikely, do you think you would have found your entity contact more convincing of being objectively real? I mean for the question to be a thought experiment rather than a belittling of chosen frameworks. Did it have that typical DMT hyper-realistic quality, in that you could see how someone might place it in the category of being real?
