5-meo-dmt toad vs plant vs synthetic experience

[PedroSanchez]

how do these three compare to each other as far as the experience goes? i assume there is a difference because there usually is due to other elements in the chemicals produced naturally.
has anybody tried all three? or even two of them? i was surprised to find very little on the forum when i did my search.

 

[roaring.snake]

My toad and synthetic experience are almost the same at its peak. Toad has a wilder energy and feels like a warm embrace, synthetic feels clean and a bit “colder”. I also noticed a difference between synthetic powder vs vape, the powder feels closer to the toad than the vape pen.

Was on different dosages, different days spread weeks apart, toad on week 1 then synthetic on week 2.
1. 21 mg toad and 3 mg synthetic
2. 35 mg toad and 5 mg synthetic
3. 63 mg toad and 9 mg synthetic
4. 84 mg toad and 12 mg synthetic

I personally prefer synthetic as I seem to be more “grounded” than the toad but the toad is special.

 

[Varallo]

At this point, I don’t really see a reason to assume that there’s something else going on. To me, this mostly feels like the usual discussion around natural versus synthetic psychedelics. Psychedelics strongly influence perception, so expectation effects and self-suggestion aren’t hard to imagine at all. Given that, it’s not surprising that people believe natural and synthetic versions feel different.

From a scientific point of view, though, there isn’t much to argue about. The only way a difference would really make sense is if there’s something else in the toad venom that actually contributes to the experience. I haven’t looked deeply enough into its full composition to say for sure whether there are other psychoactive compounds present in meaningful amounts.

So my advice would be to read up on what’s actually in the toad venom and check whether there are other known psychoactives in there. If there are, then sure, those could color the experience. But if not, I think most of the perceived difference comes down to expectation, context, and self-suggestion.

Another thing to take into consideration is the impact of collecting toad venom itself. Harvesting venom harms the toads and is already contributing to population decline, which is obviously a serious problem. This is especially hard to justify when a synthetic variant exists that is just as effective and just as impressive as the toad-derived version. Using the synthetic option avoids unnecessary harm, reduces environmental impact, and helps protect the species from further decline or even extinction.

 

[The Traveler]

Another thing to take into consideration is the impact of collecting toad venom itself. Harvesting venom harms the toads and is already contributing to population decline, which is obviously a serious problem. This is especially hard to justify when a synthetic variant exists that is just as effective and just as impressive as the toad-derived version. Using the synthetic option avoids unnecessary harm, reduces environmental impact, and helps protect the species from further decline or even extinction.

This should absolutely be your first priority when researching this option.

Also, when a specific toad venom would contain a different alkaloid profile compared to only 5-MeO-DMT itself, you might want to look into ways of creating this same mixture yourself by using synthetic 5-MeO-DMT and adding the other ingredients from standard plant extractions.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[PedroSanchez]

thank you all for the responses. just for clarity i do not intend to go out and milk any toads and i understand the problems that have come from people doing that, and worse still, from taking toads from the wild completely! i do not live anywhere where that is an option even if i wanted to and i do not believe that one can own an animal, so i will not be locking one in a cage in my house.
it was actually this topic that had me thinking about it. if it finds it's way to me then i will try it, but with the populations dwindling down it looks like the only real future for 5-meo-dmt is in synthetics.

i admit i have not looked too deep into it yet, but i will do. i figured i would ask here first as there are many wise and experienced people here that may be able to give me some insights.
to me anecdotal evidence means a lot, as taboo as that is. if i look into it and all the scientific papers say natural venom contains nothing more than 5-meo-dmt then that might be true, or it might be that they haven't discovered anything else yet, but there is in fact much more to it. i will check the research too, but if a bunch of people say it is definitely different then i am more inclined to believe them over the science, since science is always changing and far from perfect.

i have always found that nature has got some secrets up it's sleeve that human synthetics can never seem to match. it's like we are trying to build a tree out of lego blocks. i hope we can get closer in the future by doing as the traveler says and mixing and matching different extractions and synthesized chemicals. i imagine one day we will have complex synthetic compounds that closely mimic natural substances.

as varallo says, psychedelics have a huge impact on our perception so we can also feel that something is there even if it is not. on top of that our current state of mind, foods we have eaten, our current chemical balance and all kinds of other factors can change our perception, which makes this such a fascinating topic.
roaring.snake certainly seems to feel a difference between them. hopefully there are more responses like that and we can see if there is any pattern.

thank you all for your responses, and thank you roaring.snake for sharing your experiences, much appreciated

 

[blig-blug]

Incilius alvarius toad venom also contains minor amounts of bufotenin. It would make sense if that resulted in it feeling "wilder and warmer". So that could be something to explore. I have no experience with either, but I would be careful when combining 5-MeO-DMT with anything else.

 

[aizoaceous]

A search for Phalaris will find many experiences, some accompanied by TLC or other analysis of the extract. With clean genetics and an extraction that includes purification by crystallization (as either freebase or oxalate), the experience should be indistinguishable from synthetic 5-MeO-DMT. Less purified extracts from other genetics may contain significant DMT, additional tryptamines, and mostly unidentified beta-carbolines, changing the character of the experience.

Toads have longer history of use, perhaps because the venom is consumed directly but Phalaris typically involves a somewhat laborious extraction (though multiple people report effects smoking dried Phalaris directly). For cultivation, 2-3 square feet outdoors yielded about 1000 g/month fresh weight of grass, which yielded 200 mg/month purified 5-MeO-DMT. Material grown hydroponically indoors had ~5x the alkaloids per unit of fresh weight. So a small patch of garden or a single 1020 tray should yield more than enough for typical personal use. Toads have more mystique than grasses, but I hope they'll be replaced as good cultivars of Phalaris become more available. Identification to the species is insufficient, since intraspecific variation in alkaloids is huge.

 

[PedroSanchez]

A search for Phalaris will find many experiences, some accompanied by TLC or other analysis of the extract. With clean genetics and an extraction that includes purification by crystallization (as either freebase or oxalate), the experience should be indistinguishable from synthetic 5-MeO-DMT. Less purified extracts from other genetics may contain significant DMT, additional tryptamines, and mostly unidentified beta-carbolines, changing the character of the experience.

Toads have longer history of use, perhaps because the venom is consumed directly but Phalaris typically involves a somewhat laborious extraction (though multiple people report effects smoking dried Phalaris directly). For cultivation, 2-3 square feet outdoors yielded about 1000 g/month fresh weight of grass, which yielded 200 mg/month purified 5-MeO-DMT. Material grown hydroponically indoors had ~5x the alkaloids per unit of fresh weight. So a small patch of garden or a single 1020 tray should yield more than enough for typical personal use. Toads have more mystique than grasses, but I hope they'll be replaced as good cultivars of Phalaris become more available. Identification to the species is insufficient, since intraspecific variation in alkaloids is huge.

amazing, thank you
i will look into that, and also look at comparing as many analyses as i can.
i wasn't aware that you could grow a usable amount of phalaris in such a small space. you have caught my attention now i do love growing psychoactive plants! you might see me in another thread discussing that soon just got to push some other plants aside and make some room

 

[neurobloom]

Here's a comparative bioassay report i did between synthetic 5-meo-dmt and a 5-meo-dmt strain of phalaris:
~Phalaris = The Way Of The Future~

I highly recommend reading the last few pages on that thread. My short answer to your question is plant based 5-meo-dmt without isolation of the pure compound can be stronger and longer lasting than synthetic because of betacarbolines countent in some strains. That's why i highly recommend strong caution with plant derived 5-meo-dmt.

 

[neurobloom]

My toad and synthetic experience are almost the same at its peak. Toad has a wilder energy and feels like a warm embrace, synthetic feels clean and a bit “colder”. I also noticed a difference between synthetic powder vs vape, the powder feels closer to the toad than the vape pen.

Toad wilder experience may be due to some batches containing more significant portion of bufotenine which can have panic inducing effects and puts more strain on your cardio.

Synthetic 5-meo-dmt powder can feel more like toad (rougher) because it's absorbed faster when vaporized vs vape pen (the PG/VG can slow the absorption in the lungs) i also noticed vape is gentler with slower onset. Vaporizing straight freebase powder feels more jumpy for sure. Can't also dismiss the fact that vape offers higher control over dosage (increasing dose in small increments like 1mg per hit) so it should feel gentler.

I haven't tried bufo but phalaris aquatica 5-meo-dmt was the most potent and roughest for me.. but also the most gentle at other times depending on the extract profile (directly determined by weather conditions).

 

[Varallo]

Toad wilder experience may be due to some batches containing more significant portion of bufotenine which can have panic inducing effects and puts more strain on your cardio.

Synthetic 5-meo-dmt powder can feel more like toad (rougher) because it's absorbed faster when vaporized vs vape pen (the PG/VG can slow the absorption in the lungs) i also noticed vape is gentler with slower onset. Vaporizing straight freebase powder feels more jumpy for sure. Can't also dismiss the fact that vape offers higher control over dosage (increasing dose in small increments like 1mg per hit) so it should feel gentler.

I haven't tried bufo but phalaris aquatica 5-meo-dmt was the most potent and roughest for me.. but also the most gentle at other times depending on the extract profile (directly determined by weather conditions).

I am not entirely sure that I understand your message correctly, but I do know that in buffo venom there is essentially no or very little bufotenine. In the paper linked below you can see that we are talking about the order of a milligram per gram. So if you were to take a normal dose of buffo venom the actual amount would be extremely small.

From personal experience when I used pure bufotenine, it did not lead to any effect whatsoever at one or two milligram, let alone at levels below.

Qualitative and Quantitative Analysis of Tryptamines in the Poison of Incilius alvarius (Amphibia: Bufonidae) - PubMed

Rising numbers of psychoactive tryptamine derivatives have become available on the drug market over the last decade, making these naturally occurring or synthetically manufactured compounds highly relevant for forensic analyses. One of these compounds is 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov