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69ron Mescaline Tek PLEASE HELP!!! D-lim being absorbed into cactus mixture

B

blueprint

Rising Star
Hey everyone.

Basically SWIM's having trouble pouring off the D-limonene from the initial cactus/calcium/water mixture.

SWIM followed 69ron's instructions to a T but SWIM is only able to get 200ml of 300ml of the D-lim out of the mixture. And thats after really working it with the french press.

Also SWIM thinks its important to note that the D-lim that SWIM is managing to press out is quite a bright green. Far from the gold with a hint of green that SWIM has seen before.

The only thing SWIM can think of is that the calcium used is of a different quality to those being used by the fine folks of this forum. SWIM had a similar problem in the past when using proper lab grade calcium in the past. Could it be that the lab grade stuff was more potent so less was needed and that this Turkish calcium is too weak so more is needed?

SWIM has added an extra 10gms of the calium into the D-lim, poured it back into the mixture and is going to let it sit overnight to see what happens.

Being from Australia SWIM is not able to acquire the common pickling lime suggested so had to order in food grade calcium hydroxide from Turkey.

Thats the only thing SWIM can think of.

After folling the instructions so meticulously SWIM is quite shattered and confused so any help/advice would be very very much appreciated.

Thanks guys - Peace
 
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It seems about one fourth to one third of the volume of D-limonene from the first wash never comes back out. Even when a greater volume of water is used in an attempt to displace this loss, a small quantity of limo always seems to get permanently absorbed by the plant matter. Subsequent washes seem to come back out better, even without a press. Don't worry about the lost limo, just keep washing until you get no more rewards.

Don't know about the calcium hydroxide, but I'd guess the color is no big deal.

good luck!
 
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Calcium hydroxide is pickling lime... So ur good there.

I loose some limo too each time. It does suck, but you'll still get the goods.

Dg, what style tek do you use?
 
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Thanks everyone heaps for your replys. Very much appreciated :)

From scouring through endless pages on this forum I've found that when people generally follow this TEK to a T,(69ron's non-toxic food safe etc), they get all of their D-lim back even without needing the use of the press. And that the color is rarely green but yellow with a hint of green.

This suggests to me that something is going wrong. I really want to nail this tek and be able to recover all of the D-lim off the first pull in the future.

So I'm wondering what sort of calcium all of you guys were using? Was it store bought pickling lime or otherwise? Did your d-lim come out really green?

I also found that opposed to the pictures people had posted of their mixture that the d-lim basically sits on top the mix with the cactus clumped to the bottom. Mine was totally mixed in. I suspect those who have experienced similar problems have experiences this too?

SWIM added an extra 10gms of calcium to the mixture and let it soak overnight, with no effect. SWIM might have even got less out of the mixture. So an extra 50mls of water was added which seemed to help somewhat.

Theory is, is that although the calcium is food grade, that being from a lab that it is possibly finer and somewhat stronger so it is the what is responsible for holding the extra d-lim.

Going to make a couple of really small batches and use less calcium to see what happens.

Just trying to narrow down exactly what's going on and find a solution. Again, any help and advice is very much appreciated.

A big thank you to all who have contributed so far. :)

Peace
 
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Okay so Ive done a few small test batches, testing the results of gradually using less calcium.

I scaled everything down by 10% - 10gms of cactus powder as opposed to 100 and 30mls of water and D-lim.

Batch A contained what would be the equivalent of 20gms of calcium, Batch B is 15gms and Batch C is !0gms.

Batch A seemed somewhat better with slightly less of the intense green color present in the original 1st batch that was done but in terms of how much d-lim i was able to get out of it, it seems the same.

Batch B was a big improvement on the color, much more yellow with a hint of green. There was also more D-lim coming out of it than Batch A.

Batch C seems to be a huge improvement as it doesnt seem like the cactus/calcium mixture has absorbed much of the d-lim at all. I seemed to be able to pour most of it out, and i feel i could probably get close to all of it if it was pressed through a french press (coffee press). Im still waiting for it to sit for an hour or two to check the color.

Overall It seems that the less calcium I use the the less of the D-lim is absorbed into the mixture and the better the color.

Does this make sense to anyone? It doesn't seem logical to me but the results seem to speak for themselves.

SWIM is going to do a few more tests with one batch having an equivalent of 5gms of calcium. Another with more, maybe 30-35gms. And another standard one with the standard 25gms but let it sit for a few hours before i add the d-lim to see what happens. Maybe it needs to react more with the mixture to do its thing?

Its strange as most people seem to just fly through this phase of the tek with no problems at all. This leads me to believe that it has something to do with the calcium im using.

Could the calcium be much finer? Or maybe denser? Something to do with the purity? SWIM is pretty sure that it is around 95% food grade and is from a lab. I wish I could just get this Mrs.Wages pickling lime that everyone is using but it cant be bought in australia and is pretty expensive to get shipped from the US for such a small quantity.

So many variables!!! SWIM is no chemist so would really appreciate all the help SWIM can get!

Thanks again everyone :)
 
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Have you salted any of these limonene washes yet? Sure would like to see the yields of these batches. I don't beleive alkaloid content can be accurately determined by the color of the nps alone. Bright green has been seen to yield admirably.

And I'm pretty sure that everybody looses a notable quantity of d-lim to the cactus material when d-lim is added the first time. More d-lim may be added until it is enough to pool on top of the cactus material as in the pic you've seen. If your d-lim dissappears, just add more, about one fourth of the original volume will usually do it. Once the cacti absorbes it's fill of d-lim on thee first soak, subsequent washes will give back their entire volumes. You will never get back the d-lim that is lost in the first wash, but you will get all the alks if you wash until no more alks come out:)

I really think you have no problem, but please post results of your yields, this is very interesting!
 
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Thank you very much Gaia! That news is very comforting as the cactus SWIM is using is a strain of pachanoi known as Super Pedro which is reputed to be very strong. No salting yet as SWIM wanted to suss out all this D-lim drama first. Will get on it straight away and post the results as soon as SWIMs done :) Thanks again bruz. Very much appreciated!
 
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I've noticed with this tek nearly all of the limonene can be recovered by using about 1/2 to 1/3 of the volume of water the procedure calls for. It seems that limonene and water are slightly miscible and if the cactus semi-solid mass is too wet it absorbs a significant portion of the solvent as you have noticed. With less water, the cactus phase is more crumbly and when squeezed with the coffee press it compresses down quite a bit allowing nearly all of the limonene to be separated. I usually use between 100-150mL of water instead of 300mL depending on the cactus powder.

With the lower volumes of water, I have gotten yields equal to or sometimes greater than when the tek is performed with 300mL as prescribed. Additionally very little limo is wasted in the cactus phase.

The whole process seems to work better if you also let the cactus/water/lime mixture sit for 12 hours before adding the limonene. When the mixture is allowed to sit, I believe that the lime breaks down the cactus material which seems to cause it to absorb less solvent and release the alkaloids easier.
 
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Thanks heaps Jlt, SWIM will definitely run a test batch to see how it goes. Maybe even do it alongside one with the standard amount of water and compare yields. Do you think SWIM could let the cactus/lime/water mix sit for less than 12 hrs? Is that just to be safe or have you found that 12 is more effective than say 1-6hrs? Does seem appropriate to let it sit longer as less water seems like it may take longer to fully basify.
 
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jl1 said:
With the lower volumes of water, I have gotten yields equal to or sometimes greater than when the tek is performed with 300mL as prescribed. Additionally very little limo is wasted in the cactus phase.
Click to expand...

Wow! This is 8) . I thought only to try more water thinking it would be entirely absorbed by the cactus, preventing the limonene from being absorbed (tried, didn't work). I see the sense in your method. This is great to find out, thank you!
 
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blueprint said:
Thanks heaps Jlt, SWIM will definitely run a test batch to see how it goes. Maybe even do it alongside one with the standard amount of water and compare yields. Do you think SWIM could let the cactus/lime/water mix sit for less than 12 hrs? Is that just to be safe or have you found that 12 is more effective than say 1-6hrs? Does seem appropriate to let it sit longer as less water seems like it may take longer to fully basify.
Click to expand...


I'm not too sure about the exact times but I usually let it sit for 12 hours just to be safe. I don't think less water requires more time to basify; I still notice a strong ammonia smell shortly after mixing in the lime and water. However I do notice that the cactus mixture has a different consistency after sitting overnight possibly indicating that the plant material has been broken down. I also read a post by 69ron where he stated that he lets it sit for 12 hours and has very good results so I just stuck with that number.

Additionally freebase mescaline is apparently somewhat soluble in water so using less water allows the alkaloids to migrate to the non-polar solvent faster and easier whereas when more water is used, more alkaloids will be retained in the water.

In general I have noticed easier separation of phases and better yields after allowing the plant material to basify for 12-24 hours for any type of extraction I have done so I just sort of made the extended basification time a rule of thumb to ensure the best results.
 
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Hey thought i'd keep you guys updated and ask a question while im at it.

Left the powder/lime/water mixture sit for 12 hours, and this time using 150ml of water instead of 300ml. They mixture still absorbed around 100ml or the d-lim so will try 100ml next time.

The d-lim still came out quite green, so SWIMs hoping that this means that it is possibly a strong yield.

Experienced a small emulsion when it came to separating the vinegar and d-lim. Is this common? Has anyone here experienced this?

The first two vinegar pulls SWIM used an electric mixture and let them sit for about halfa an hour or so. At that point there was a thinnish foamy emulsion. Pretty thin but an emulsion nonetheless.

The third pull SWIM decided to just shake the sep funnel and an hour later it was quite an improvement. Pretty thin white film.

What would SWIY recommend, shaken or stirred? And how long should SWIM let it separate for, half an hour? A couple hours?

First D-lim pull extraction should be ready tomorrow so will update the results when they're in.

Peace
 
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So first d-lim pull only yielded aprx 740mg. And by the looks of it the second D-lim pull is yielding nothing?!

The second D-lim pulls were still green but this time very cloudy? Less of an emulsion when separating the vinegar but there was a lot of what SWIM would describe as mucusy like bubbles hanging from the very thin emulsion layer.

Am going to do a third pull to make sure but yeah, SWIM finds it very strange that the second pull has produced nothing. SWIM happens to know for a fact that this is very strong cactus, so that could only mean in my mind that the goods are still in the cactus and that the D-lim is not pulling it for some reason. Either that or they are all getting caught in the small emulsion layer.


Anyone have any idea what is going on? SWIM is thinking next time SWIMs going to try either only adding 100mls of water or doing it the standard way with 300mls and just re-filling what D-lim is absorbed.
Both the 100ml water mixture and the 300ml one seemed to both absorb around 100ml of D-lim. So based on that SWIM is feeling like just sticking to what 69ron recommends.


Can anyone out there shed some light on the situation? Not sure exactly whats going on or which way to go with it all.

Thanks again for all your help so far.

Peace
 
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SWIM will also add that the cactus base absorbed another 100ml's of D-lim on the third pull in addition to the first. The second pull only seemed to absorb a small amount, like around 30ml's max. This seems strange to SWIM and is beginning to feel that the problem may actually possibly lie in not mixing the cactus/calcium/water thoroughly enough.

SWIM is using quite a large container to mix it in which makes it difficult to reach into and stir it well, so SWIM stirs as best as SWIM can and then shakes the container very vigorously for awhile.

So SWIM is beginning to feel that this technique isnt sufficient enough to mix it properly thereby not basifying the mixture properly.

This would make sense, especially when using less water, as 1. the D-lim comes out increasingly cloudier and 2. there definitely seems to be some from of plant matter present in the vinegar emulsion which pretty resembles cactus mucilage/slime.

As a last note swim will aslo add that the smell from the cactus/water/calcium mix is sooo incredibly strong since using less water, especially when there is no lim in the mix.


Swim is doing yet another test batch asap, but this time feels like, just to be safe, to stick to the standard ratio's but this time mix the base in a container better suited to mix it very thoroughly just in case thats the problem.

Yet again, all help and advice is greatly appreciated. Look forward to hearing swiy's thoughts and feedback on all of this. This forum is a source of invaluable information and feedback and swim is very grateful for everything contributed.

Peace
 
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Hey guys so swim thinks swim finally has the tek figured out, and that the problem was mixing the water/cactus/calcium mix thoroughly so that the mucilage completely breaks down etc.

One last problem was encountered though, a really annoying one at that and have no idea what went wrong.

The problem was during the mek cleaning process. Swim added 15ml of mek to apprx. 1.55 gms or dried vinegar acetate, and the extract turned into a sludge. It's like the extract absorbed it or something. Swim attempted to mash it up more and and a lot did drain out.

Swim added another 15ml and mashed it up some more and by this time let it the whole thing sit in the freezer for 5 mins or so. When swim took it out there was what seemed to be little dark globules of something in the dark mek. Vinegar? Water? Mescaline?

When swim poured it off he was left with little to no mescaline at all. Only vague traces off it. There shouldve been at least 700-900mg of pure acetate left.

Quite confused as to what went wrong. Swim Has done the exact same process in the past except for putting it in the freezer. But has never seen the acetate turn into a sludge like that? Usually you see it break up and become a powder and sit at the bottom of the mek. Very strange.

Has anyone experienced this or have any idea's as to what went wrong? Finally figured out the tek and now this?!!! Man its taken so much effort to get to this point. Would really appreciate all the help swim can get to finally figure this out once and for all!

Vinegar not dry enough? Water from the freezer? Possibly calcium or something being brought over?

Peace
 
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hi guys - please help help help!!!
SWIMS are following 69ron's instructions for the extraction, but got stuck already at the stage 2: filtering d-lim out of the mixture!!!
trouble is it is all like a gelly bread dough, and impossible to press (we tried with the french press but no liquid comes out) .
SWIMS used:
- 100 gr cactus powder
- 25 ml pickling lime (from Indian store)
- 300 ml water
SWIMS mixed these 3 together and already got the gelly breaddough-like mixture
then added 300 ml d-limo straight after (no sitting) and mix this in the dough energetically until it all looked thoroughly absorbed.
after 2-3 hours, the mixture looked more compact then before and absolutely impossible to filter!!!
SWIMS thought the d-limo should have not been mixed thoroughly to the mixture but just poor on top????????? :( :( :( :roll: :roll: :( :(

can something still be done to save the process? perhaps pouring more d-limo this time not mixing it and then filter this out? SWIMS think they would lose a lot this way....

please help!!

P&L
 
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