A discussion on the achievement of buddha hood

[polytrip]

That is I cannot doubt my enlightenment and liberation process and have it still be effective (obviously I suppose).

I remember this choice. Here is what happened after my decision to go with #1:

God made me realize that I am selfish because I didn't take into account the consequences of my "enlightenment" for others. Have you seen the Japanese anime "Serial Experiments: Lain"? That's a parable of exactly this process, finely communicating the inherent spiritual problems - highly recommended. A movie called "The Nines" also contains some useful hints. In short, while it may be true that you are the only being, paradoxically this is also not the case. If you become God, then you have certain "responsibilities" to go with that (it seems even God is subject to its own laws somehow), which means you have to find and live/sustain a solution to the equation which caters for everyone ( both "good" and "bad" ). If you go along this thought train, then you may arrive at the uncomfortable suspicion that the world is possibly even now the most perfectly balanced equation possible. (This is a quite tough nut to crack.)

The second thing that happened was that I was sent to the "dark night of the soul", where all these otherworldly hopes were methodically stripped away from me. I had to become nullified, with no spiritual support whatsoever. My current hypothesis is that one can become God only if one doesn't want to become God.

Also, in budhism there are different ways of looking at this issue.
It's called the divide between the mahayana and hinayana. The narrow pathway and the wide open road to enlightenment. Although both have elements from eachother.
Question is, regarding this divide: if concern for the world will draw you away from your path towards enlightenment, would you try to seal yourself of from the causes of this concern.
And than the paradox unfolds, that there is no greater enlightenment than pure unaldulterated compassion. So by deciding not to let the world withhold you from enlightenment, you've withhold it from yourself.

 

[nn-DreemMasterTree]

I wonder, if i ever become 'enlightened' dose any one think id still smoke dmt?
would i have to be content to leave my exploration of hyperspace alone, because i wouldn't be content enough to even be enlightened? or something? dont know if me makin seance right now?

 

[Swarupa]

I quit psychedelics for about year as i felt they couldn't take me any further, then i tried DMT as someone offered & i felt why not give it a go, i was also quitting smoking cannabis at the time so thought it would be a good last hoorah for drugs... then DMT went & intruiged me and i remembered why i took so many shrooms in the past, psychedelics are useful tools.

IMO as long as you're alive/ambodied you can still be purified further, death is the ultimate purification & psychedelics can mimmick the fear & ecstacy of death for sure, they can push your limits, you can get up from meditation & walk away, but you can't walk away from a trip. It really helps me learn how to surrender.

I'm currently going through a stage where i will continue to use psychedelics even though i ultimately know they do not bring me any closer to the Truth.

 

[joedirt]

Wanted to pose a few questions to my fellow nexers about achieving buddha hood. As a buddhist is it not my/our primary goal to become a realized person, not just some enlightened state of mind, but the actual achievement of buddha hood. The questions I would like to pose are:

1. Do others believe this to be an actual possibility??

2. Is anyone(else) on this quest, and if so how close do you feel to be?

3. Does anyone else get repeated visions/messages/etc. that they are destined to be the vessel for our creator to come onto this world? I have read lots of experiences where people have great insights, and experiences where they have been at the foot of God, or even been God, but they seem totally different than my repeated experiences.

So let me start by answering my own questions,
1.- Yes I do believe this is possible. I believe we all have the ability to obtain christ consciousness/buddha hood. And I believe that only when one has obtained this will the consciousness of the whole world elevate to a degree to enlighten all.

2.- I am definitely on this quest for over ten years, and I feel close to this state(well lots closer than when I started). Almost all of my voyages during this time have centered on this fact. I try not to attach myself to these what I used to think were delusions, but what I have seen and experienced has to be real. And I guess my main purpose of this post is to see if anyone else has had these types of experiences over and over. With each ego death I feel closer to my goal. I have broken this curse, I have figured my way out of this maze, I have found myself with the things they cannot control, those things being thy fungus and mold.

3.-I feel that the creator will actually be re-born in me, onto his earth to set right all the wrongs that Satan(or evil forces in general) have put forth on his creation. And to liberate all beings from the bondage of their egos, and from this evil influence. Men will continue to have free will, but will choose to use it correctly in this enlightened state. No more hate, no more war.

I am interested to see what my fellow nexers think of this subject.
:idea:

*Have edited to display new ideas, which I have also done in a later comment somewhat.

1) Yes

2) A long way's off but infinitely closer than I was before I realized there was a path. I've also been on the path just over 10 years myself.

3) I sometimes see visions when in deep meditation, usually when I've partaken of cannabis. I have personally never felt 'called' by God, but I have felt empowered to go and be all I can be for God..if that makes sense.

 

[joedirt]

There is simply no difference from the happiness of a practicing Buddhist, or Buddha himself, than that of a materialistic dependent state of mind.

I don't agree...for me at least. I've gone form the materialist that wanted to be a CEO to someone that has learned that happiness comes from the removal of desire. I have never met a truly happy materialist. I've met happy at times materialists, but never a full blown hedonistic matierialist that is by and large a happy person.

I do agree with most everything else you said...as if you care if I agree or not!

Cheers

** edited because of bad formating

 

[unclesyd]

I wonder, if i ever become 'enlightened' dose any one think id still smoke dmt?
would i have to be content to leave my exploration of hyperspace alone, because i wouldn't be content enough to even be enlightened? or something? dont know if me makin seance right now?

After my first true enlightening I quit for quite awhile. And it really made me wonder, was I truly enlightened, or just had some enlightening realizations. A true enlightenment, a fully realized and liberated being would not need any type of drug to maintain such a state. And in that state one could only be content and full of love, and be able to journey hyperspace at their will. Or maybe you wouldn't need hyperspace at all since you would be in the most hyper of spaces.

Sure I walked around in a state of awe of my new found vision of myself and the world, but I was still dragged back down into the toils of this earth. I continue to voyage having even more powerful experiences since that one, continue to seek the ultimate state of love and unity with all consciences. To become the supreme personality of Godhead onto this earth. And I believe my psychedelic yoga is leading me on that path.

But that strikes a issue of attachment. How attached to this ideal am I???? I was given the choice in my journeys if I wanted this path and I chose yes, after much deliberation. I believe you must seek this ideal if it you ever want it to be realized, but at the same time not attach yourself to this ideal. You must not want it for you, but for all the other part of the universal consciousness. For all the poor souls out their that do not realize we are all one.

 

[nn-DreemMasterTree]

were time is not, there is no fear of death

 

[jamie]

...I dunno about all this enlightenment stuff..focussing on some state of being where you are now at the highest level one can reach..seems kinda boring if there is not something higher to obtain above that level..that whole scenario presents a number of existential problems..anyway, whats wrong with just being human?

Im not sure why it would make sense that a sopposed "enlightened" being would choose not to smoke DMT anymore than they would choose to smoke DMT, and also have some sort of bias either way as to why they should or shouldnt smoke DMT..

I dont personally believe in that sort of enlightenment where you reach some sort of highest level of attainment..I have no point of refernce in all of my experiences to support that sort of an idea personally..there is always a higher level to attain, no matter how high you go..and at the same time..the idea that you dont "need" this or that based on you being at a certan level goes out the window since that is such a linear level of thinking anyway.

 

[jamie]

I also personally dont think that the point is to just transcend everything here..I dont think the physcial realm of material existance is hell etc and I dont think it is all "illusion"..I find these ideas and sayings get passes around alot in trendy new age circles and are played out and..well...boorrrrinnnggg!:d

Why would I was to transcend everything in this life?..this life is amazing, its beautiful and wonderful and worth being here for. I dont want the void..I just want elegance in the here and the now..

I see psychedelics like psilocybin, ayahuasca and DMT as vital and neurotransmitters available to us through the consumption of plants(and through darkrooming in my experience)..neurotransmitters of which, whatever it is they really are doing, are taking us to a higher state of consciousness and preparing us somehow for society that is quickly approaching that will be comprised of a more cohesive bond between technology and the organic matrix of the earth and her forests etc...

So from that point of view, to say that once you are there, on that next level or "enlightenment" you wont need DMT, or whatever else that is taking you there is basically the antithesis of wholism..it is very reductionist..the "reality" of the DMT experience, whatever it is or how you want to look at it, if that is what takes you there, then why would it make sense that you will get back and stay in that state without DMT?..sounds almost like thinking you will not eat and still somehow absorb nutrients..or breathetarianism..you cant take out some of the parts, and still have a whole..

 

[unclesyd]

Some good comments and observations fractal. Although we may differ on the point of view of enlightenment I agree with some other of your statements. And of course like you led on to that we each have our personal experiences and reference points to judge our lives and this world. Who knows in the end DMT and other substances such as this might be leading us into the direct opposite direction we think it is taking us. There may be no consciousness, with each of us being completely separate beings and entities. I do not believe this to be the case, but thats just my two sense.

I too do not think this material existence is hell, or that it all is an illusion. Well sort of in the sense that psychedelics allow us to peer into another world/dimension/whatever not accessible to our normal state. The normal waking world is definitely not an illusion, but it also definitely is not all there is to this world. This world is a paradise for us to enjoy, but unfortunately there is tremendous amounts of suffering.

And I dont think the point is to transcend this world, like you said this world is beautiful and glorious. But has been tarnished with sin and such. I dont believe that the whole world needs to walking buddhas, but a little compassion for one another would not hurt. Like you said we need to raise our state of consciousness.

And I still have to differ on you in my thoughts about a true enlightened being using drugs, cause why would you need a tool to fix a perfect machine. But of course if you dont believe in an enlightened state then this gets thrown out the window.

And one last thought is one I eluded to before, I believe you must choose to pursue the path of supreme enlightnment, so those who deny enlightenment exists cannot become enlightened if such a state exists(I believe its true, but hey....) If you are not open to such an idea, than the idea will never find you.

Those are my personal facts, and the worlds opinions. Take them as you will.
Good day and pleasant journeys.

 

[jamie]

let me clarify one thing..I see the idea of supreme enlightenment in that sense implying a finite cosmos..since if it really is supreme then there is nothng above it to reach to..so is an enlightened being really the end all be all?..or does it just SEEM that way from our point of view?..and are they then to remain humble about it?..since humbleness implies that there is something to be humble in the face of..we are humble not becasue we are the biggest thing out there, but becasue we know that as much as we DO know, we still dont know shit..Dennis Mckenna said it best when he quoted ayahuasca.."you monkeys only think your running things"..

I am not saying I dont believe in attaining a higher state of consciousness..I just dont believe in end points as ultimatums, becasue I have no reason to within a cosmos that can just as easily be seen as infinite as it can finite..personally, I dont belive in finity or infinity, becasue both seem to be a cop out in a sense in relation to the other..the reality of the situation is probly not soo linear and much more complex than we can suppose.

I do see everyone and everything as part of one larger order, that I do know as a personal truth that I lived with ayahuasca one night through a very complicated reincarnation sequence..there is an order and a larger mind behind our species evolution..you may choose to persue enlightenment, but in the end that is the will of "human" then, but not any one human in particular..at the higher, more integrated level nature is running the show..at least that is how I lived it.

 

[Apoc]

The author, Jed Mckenna, attempts to point out the differences between mystical states, enlightenment, and what he calls "human adulthood" (in his second and third book)

In terms understandable to this crowd here, what we experience in our dmt sessions would certainly qualify as mystical states. Jed agrees that mystical states are the highest states that anyone can experience.... but it's not enlightenment. Enlightenment isn't any particular state.

Human Adulthood would be like integration. Human adulthood is a way of living in a state of openness instead of constriction. It is thinking for youself, using common sense, not falling prey to superstition, nor blindly following oppressive authority, nor oppressive dogma for dogma's sake. Adulthood is taking responsibility for your own good health, helping your fellow beings, generally living a balanced happy life that everyone is searching for. Jed describes human adulthood as the real prize, that's what everyone really wants. But it's not enlightenment. Psychedelics, I believe, are a great tool for the human adult, or someone beginning to walk the path of self examination. And psychedelics are also fantastic for transcendent mystical states. They can even help a person towards truth realization/enlightenment... though Jed does not describe enlightenment as any kind of prize, nor something to be stived for.

Enlightenment, as Jed describes it is "truth realization", and there is only one truth, that which cannot be simpler. Jed describes enlightenment as "abiding nondual awareness".

These three things, mystical states, adulthood, and enlightenment aren't necessarily experienced as one or the other. You can have all three, and at times they can be closely associated with one another. Jed seems to suggest that what most seekers of enlightenment are really after, though not knowing it, is human adulthood, just a really good life.... preferably, a really REALLY good life. Or seekers are after a mystical state that never ends, or transcendence of some sort, or never ending happiness, though none of those things are enlightenment. Jed suggests most people should look toward human adulthood. I just thought Jed Mckenna does a really good job of separating all the things associated with enlightenment, to get a much clearer picture of what enlightenment is not.

Here's a few snippets from the opening of his third book, "Spiritual Warfare"
"By continuing beyond this point, the reader acknowledges and agrees that the state of Spiritual Enlightenment discussed herein conveys upon the seeker-aspirant-victim no benefits, boons, blessings, or special powers and bears little or no resemblance to assorted New Age or Eastern varieties widely dispensed under the same name. Orgasmic euphoria, orgiastic bliss, obscene wealth, perfect health, eternal peace, angelic ascension, cosmic consciousness, purified aura, astral projection, pan-dimensional travel, extra-sensory perception, access to akashic records, profound wisdom, sagely demeanor, radiant countenance, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence and opening of the third eye are not likely to result. Tuning, harmonizing, balancing, energizing, reversing or opening of the chakras should not be expected. The kundalini serpent dwelling at the base of the spine will not be awakened, poked, prodded, raised, or otherwise molested.

 

[dream_denizen]

I think that someone can become extremely, infinitely, close to "Buddha Hood" (or, as I'd like to refer to it as, One)

Mathematically speaking, you may never reach One. You can only become approximately one.

Terence McKenna says it much better:

The time wave never actually reaches zero, but infinitely comes closer. Just as consciousness would when trying to achieve Buddha Hood.
The longer and deeper you explore your spirituality the closer you come to One without ever actually reaching it.

To end this I will say again we can only become approximately one.

 

[jamie]

Ok sooooo..my entire point here being, how can we be sure one wont open it's eyes all of a sudden, take a look around and find it is really in a room full of others?...

 

[Apoc]

Ok sooooo..my entire point here being, how can we be sure one wont open it's eyes all of a sudden, take a look around and find it is really in a room full of others?...

cannot know. And if we suddenly realize there are others, there's no way of knowing that might be some teporary illusion too. It seems existence is an experience of things that cannot be known, other than existence is.

 

[dropofahat]

very interesting thread, I have found that I have been recently pulled back to meditation and previous buddhist literature that I had looked over some year back.

as far as an obtainable state, what I had learned was that the state was already obtained, but needed to be unobscured, like wiping the frost off of your car window, and that it was the most mundane, or to put it, supramundance experience that was available. which to me means the most normal state that a human could reside in, and when i mean normal it's not in the way like I fit in, but more like the natural me, or the natural human state.

Also, I wouldn't describe the advesarial principal that we may experience daily or in our states of travel as necessarily evil, I would describe it as being in it's natural state only juxtaposed to ours in goal and methods. While it's goal may be the total subjegation and destruction of our independence and the emptying of our resources, it is only fulfulling the space that it has been alloted and we have the choice, yes we have the choice to turn from this and move towards the more constructive instead of the destructive (or good vs evil), but as you find destruction is welcome at times as well as construction is abhorred at others.

The principal is out there, but to sully itself while we wallow in the mire of overreaching ego is not it's way, the hand is always outstretched as you can tell, but the grasper will need to collect determined effort to reach it. There are many others that are working dilegently to show the way, but it is up to us to take the first step, as many of us here have I believe.

 

[jamie]

"And I dont think the point is to transcend this world, like you said this world is beautiful and glorious. But has been tarnished with sin and such."

i dont believe in "sin"..nor do I think it has any relevance within the philisophical paradigm of buddhism..and this is important to my point here. You are talking about enlightenment within the buddhist paradigm, then talking about this world being tarnished with sin..

From wikipedpia..

Sin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Sin, in religion, is an act that violates a known moral rule. The term sin may also refer to the state of having committed such a violation. Commonly, the moral code of conduct is decreed by a divine entity, i.e. divine law. Sin may also refer to refraining from action or simply desiring to act in violation of a moral norm. Fundamentally, sin is rebellion against, or resistance to, the direction of supreme authority, and enmity toward, avoidance of, or hatred of the good.[citation needed] Sin may also refer to something within human nature that has a proclivity to sin (see concupiscence).

Sin is often used to mean an action that is prohibited or considered wrong. In some religions (notably in Christianity), sin can refer not only to physical actions taken, but also to thoughts and internalized motivations and feelings. Colloquially, any thought, word, or act considered immoral, selfish, shameful, harmful, or alienating might be termed "sinful"."

I dont see the relevance of that defintion of sin within the buddhist paradigm.

"An elementary concept of "sin" concerns acts and elements of mundane earthly living that one cannot take into transcendental living. Food, for example, while a necessary good for the (health of the temporal) body, is not of (eternal) transcendental living and therefore its excessive savoring is considered a sin.[citation needed] A more developed concept of "sin" deals with a distinction between destructive (deadly) sins (mortal sin) and the merely dishonorable (harmful) sins of careless human living (venial sin) frequently tolerated by societies as a whole, or even encouraged by various cultures (e.g. those college fraternities and sororities notorious for their parties). In that context, mortal sins (sacrilege, murder, mortal violence, devastating calumny, hatred) are said to have the dire consequence of mortal penalty, while sins of careless living (gluttony, casual or informal sexuality, constant play, inebriation, gambling) have been philosophically regarded by some as essential spice for "transcendent" living, even though these may be destructive in the context of human living (obesity, drunkenness, vagrancy, infidelity, child abandonment, criminal negligence). See Asceticism, Stoic philosophy, Epicurean philosophy, and Hedonism."

That might fit the paradigm of buddhism a bit better, but still..I dont see how these things so much taint this world, as much as they simply color this world..not in a way that is ultumatily "good" or "bad"..things just are..I mean the universe is fucking amazing, wonderful and beautiful the way it is..and all that darkness you CHOOSE to look at or not look at does have a role to play..you dont have light without dark. You dont have one color without the entire spectrum..when was the last time you looked up and saw a single band of color in the sky in place of the rainbow?

If it wasnt for "sin", Adam might very well still be sitting in that garden, sure..but would Adam then still be a naive man unable to reach out for himself into a world of direct knowledge through a vast wealth of first hand experience?..Sorry I am just not of the camp that thinks that 1) nature somehow has fucked up..and that 2)a state of blissful ignorance is ideal compared to a state of thoroughly traveled realization..

So you are in the garden you never chose to leave..it is beautiful..but can you SEE it?..Ignorance mya be bliss, but gratitude is something you earn.

It's not that I look around and always enjoy what I see, or that I dont understand your concern for whats going on in the world..I just dont see it as out of place. Cosmos has a plan..cosmos has always had a plan.

The reality of the situation is that we ARE here..this world IS this way..I dont believe any of this is a mistake, and I dont believe any of this is to be taken for granted. You are fucking stardust brother..I am stardust..we are all starsdust..we've been on this path since the dawn of time and that is something to sit in awe of..NOTHING can take that away from you. There are no sinners and there are no mistakes..there is only the path..and as far as you think you can stray, you are always on that path.

 

[blue_velvet]

I think that someone can become extremely, infinitely, close to "Buddha Hood" (or, as I'd like to refer to it as, One)

Mathematically speaking, you may never reach One. You can only become approximately one.

Terence McKenna says it much better:

The time wave never actually reaches zero, but infinitely comes closer. Just as consciousness would when trying to achieve Buddha Hood.
The longer and deeper you explore your spirituality the closer you come to One without ever actually reaching it.

To end this I will say again we can only become approximately one.

0.999...

 

[unclesyd]

you may choose to persue enlightenment, but in the end that is the will of "human" then, but not any one human in particular..at the higher, more integrated level nature is running the show..at least that is how I lived it.

Again I agree with this completely, nature is running the show. We are all going with the flow, although some fight against it. And I think that seeking enlightenment is ultimately one trying to reach a higher state of consciousness. And maybe your right, maybe there is no end point. But you still would have attained(hopefully) a higher state of consciousness. And if one were to attain the highest state here on earth, then that one would have to eventually die, as is the nature of this world. And what happens after that is a whole other subject I wont start now.

The kundalini serpent dwelling at the base of the spine will not be awakened, poked, prodded, raised, or otherwise molested.

Well not with that attitude!! haha

And for the issue of sin and such. Let me explain my belief in brief, I like to call my self a buddhachrist. Because I was raised christian(lutheran), and later turned on to buddhism, among others. So I see a lot of truths in a lot of religions, and also a lot of lies. It can be hard finding the difference sometimes! I really dont think there is only one way to God. And so try not to take the word sin as a specific reference to any one religion. More of like a general term to describe unfavorable activities such as you stated in your wikipedia quotes.

And my experiences clearly impose upon that we are living in an increasing un-moral, hateful, and evil world. The word has gotten back to source and has caused an alarm. Look at all the suffering and atrocities taking place all over the world. These things may color the world, but not favorably. I cannot succumb to the idea that there are no sinners, well wait now. Shoot actually that may be somewhat true. Because most people in this world no not what they do. So is acting without knowing sin??

It may be that you must have good and evil, but I believe this world has filled up with so much evil that it has endangered this planet. And for some reason I do believe this to be a treasured place in Gods eyes. Sure there is vast creations with vast life forms and spiritual awake beings, but we are special in some way. And God will not let his precious be destroyed by evil.

I have been lead to believe when God is re-born on this earth that the whole consciousness of this planet will be elevated so much, that no one will even want to do any evil, any sin, any bad behavior. I do believe in Karma and so as Earl says you do bad things, bad things happen to you. No longer will men do bad things, at east for an age.

We are indeed children of the stars brother, seeds scattered on this earth. And the path is ever present, until you get where you are going. Then maybe you start over?????????? There may be a plan, but I am not entirely convinced that the lines are always the same, that every minute detail is pre-planned. I do believe in free-will, but that is easily misguided by ego, desire, and such, especially with us civilized apes.

 

[Ayawasqero]

:lol: I know about one guy attained ,buddhahood´. His name was Gotama.