Adapting cybs salt tek to one gallon/250 gram extraction

[MystiCat]

So I'm thinking that maybe 250 grams of acacia confusa would be the amount I would use, so I would take that 250 grams and go ahead and soak in about 900ml water, with how much vinegar to acidify? Would I be able to multiply the vinegar used in Cybs salt tek by five or no? After I freeze that overnight in the acidic water solution I would take it out, thaw, and place in a heat bath for two hours. I will then boil 500ml of water with 175 grams of salt. Add 260 grams of lye into one liter of water, pout into the extraction vessel and top off with 1135ml water and put it in the heat bath for another two hours. Now, would I pull with 250 ml naphta? Thanks for your help

 

[boogerz]

Take my opinion as someone who brainfarts a lot!

Unless you are in an absolute rush I would start off with a smaller extraction
Mistakes happen and teks are evolving

Good luck

BTW I would get a pH reader or pH papers. They come in handy

 

[cyb]

You don't just 'double up' on all the ingredients. That's not how it works.
Try to understand the process before going for larger extractions, it will be worth the learning effort.

If you use the amounts you have shown, you will run into trouble.

 

[MystiCat]

Well would you help me out and tell me how I would go about this? A few friends and I have gone in together to get a life time (or few year) supply, and a bunch of smaller extractions is just not what we want to do. We are trying to get this out of the way so that we don't have to even think about doing it again for a long time. I'm not really doubling up, 1 gram of lye per gram of acacia is what I am going by, which is something I have read, and 15 ml's of water per gram of acacia. Could you help out so that I can successfully perform this extraction and not run into trouble, I would appreciate it. My question was what I had wrong, and how to fix it.

 

[cyb]

help me out

Well I was kinda hoping you would learn the basics but here's the quick version:

Here's what you do:

Get 2x 1 litre bottles
Do 100g bark in each bottle and use exactly the same ingredient amounts as the tek shows HERE. (same as for 50g)
Run the two extractions side by side at the same time.
Combine ALL your pulls together at the end and evap down to a 1/3 of the volume...then freeze.

This way you will have 200g bark extracted (potential 6g's of spice) and 50g bark left over to use in case you mess it up.
Much better than trying to find giant bottles to do big extracts in.

 

[MystiCat]

Thanks man, just wondering, do you see me running into a problem with how thick the solution will be with 100g and the same amounts of water?

 

[some one]

I have the same issue. It's easy to understand how an extraction works. But I'm missing the logic of knowing the ratios for different amounts. You must understand that what seems easy to learn for someone with plenty of knowledge, is not for everyone. It could take a lot of time for sufficient knowledge to be gained. Time that could for example be spend helping other people in other ways. To each their own function I guess.

Good thing I spotted this topic. Because I had exactly the same question (for 100g). Using the same ratio's of everything for 100g as for 50g seems totally counter intuitive to me lol. If it wasn't for you having made the tek, I wouldn't even trust you. But I guess I should..

Thanks for making this tek. It's going to be my first to extract spice with. And for good reason. Keep up the good work!

Peace

 

[concombres]

I have the same issue. It's easy to understand how an extraction works. But I'm missing the logic of knowing the ratios for different amounts. You must understand that what seems easy to learn for someone with plenty of knowledge, is not for everyone. It could take a lot of time for sufficient knowledge to be gained. Time that could for example be spend helping other people in other ways. To each their own function I guess.

Good thing I spotted this topic. Because I had exactly the same question (for 100g). Using the same ratio's of everything for 100g as for 50g seems totally counter intuitive to me lol. If it wasn't for you having made the tek, I wouldn't even trust you. But I guess I should..

Thanks for making this tek. It's going to be my first to extract spice with. And for good reason. Keep up the good work!

Peace

The ratios stay the same because when more material is used the actual amount of lye, water, & acid go up as well.
Its not like you use the same amount of water, lye, & acid for 50g bark as you do 1000g.

 

[MystiCat]

But if that is true, then why am I being told to use the same ratios for 100 grams that I used for 50 grams?

 

[concombres]

But if that is true, then why am I being told to use the same ratios for 100 grams that I used for 50 grams?

The RATIO stays the same. The actual AMOUNTS do not stay the same.
Do the math.

Water: bark ratio
15ml water per 1g bark.
15ml x 50g = 750ml
15ml x 250g = 3750ml

Lye: bark ratio
1g lye per 1g bark
1g lye x 50g bark = 50g lye
1g lye x 250g bark = 250g lye

Solvent: bark ratio
1ml solvent per 1g bark
1ml naphtha x 50g bark = 50ml naphtha per pull
1ml naphtha x 250g bark = 250ml per pull

The acid added i think is not done by ratio & that is not hard. Measure the ph of your water before bark is added. When it is below 4 but above 2 it's ready for the bark to be added.

 

[cyb]

Listen guys...I DO NOT use ratios.

Water: bark ratio
15ml x 250g = 3750ml

^^^ See if you use ratios for upscaling...you get entirely Too Much water...Too Much lye and Too Much solvent to pull with.
So I disagree with concombres ratio Upscaling method.

They are a guide used from much older Teks and although they are roughly OK, they are Not accurate.

The whole point of understanding the chemical process behind A/B extraction is why you Won't have to use ratios.

It comes down to the amount of water you WANT to use (aqueous layer)

If you put 50g Bark in 1 litre of water, then you use X amount of acid/base/salt to create the reaction in the watery environment (pH values).

BUT you can easily do 100g in 1 litre of water because there is room for the bark to slosh around in...so the amounts of acid/base/salt stay the same...because the water volume hasn't changed...See?
(there will be a slight change of amounts used because of the extra material volume and liquid displacement ...but that's just getting deeper into the mathematics and it's negligible)

NOW, if you use more bark (say 250g), then you will NEED more water, because the mixture will become 'Too Sludgy' for the solvent to separate effectively.

250 will fit nicely in around 2-2.5 litres without being viscous...so you have to change the acid/base/salt amounts to suit the new watery environment, (more water...more acid/base/salt to achieve the right pH values)
The acid pH must reach pH4 or lower for the molecule to keep to a Salt form (dmt acetate) ...then the alkaline/base must reach pH 11 or more for the molecule to change to a Freebase form.
ALWAYS Pull with aound 50ml of solvent REGARDLESS of the amount of other ingredients you use. (a rough guide is...1g of spice will sit saturated/suspended in 30ml of HOT solvent, although you won't pull this amount in practice)

So you see...there Are NO RATIOS used in my Teks...It is not necessary. And you DON'T 'double everything up' because you have double the bark.

You just need to understand the basics of A/B Chemistry and choose an appropriate amount of water to use you will be fine.
Read This > DMT Extraction Overview (A Sticky in the FAQ Section)

Ratios are an outdated guide that can lead to severe overuse of ingredients and questionable outcomes.
Proportional Upscaling only applies for some of the ingredients imo.

 

[endlessness]

cyb and I had a long discussion on this already lol

imo stick to keeping same ratios, just scale up and down.

If when scaling up cyb feels he has too much of a material (for example water), then my argument is that he had too much water in the original amounts in the first place, since the extraction works in proportion (remember the acacia pool example? )

I have never really measured pH in a DMT extraction, it is completely unnecessary to measure or to do any pH calculations. Add lye till the whole thing is black (thats a natural pH meter), and a bit more for good measure, and you're fine. pH only really needs to be measured if you want to separate harmine from harmaline in harmala extractions or some other more complicated proceedures that have nothing to do with simple dmt extractions.

As for the acidic part, just add a bit of acid, a couple splashes of vinegar or whatever, no need to measure since the alkaloids are already in salt form in the plant, the plant is acidic, so it will already be water soluble. The acid just helps a bit further breaking down plant material and guaranteeing it is acidic in case your tap water is very basic.

And regarding size of pulls, sure you can do multiple small pulls even with larger amounts of plant material, but you will have to make more pulls to compensate. Also, while 1g pure dmt dissolves in 30ml warm naphtha, this is certainly not the case with naphtha being added to a complex solution, since there are other factors like matrix effect, lowering of temperatures etc.. So your naphtha pulls will pull less from a complex mixture than from pure dmt in a shot glass. My suggestion is to use half as much naphtha as bark material, so if you have 100g bark, do 50ml pulls. I know Cyb's tek says 50ml per 50g bark, but imo thats because when you're dealing with very small amounts of liquids and using the same containers, the solvent layer will be too thin so it will be hard to separate accurately, say, 25ml naphtha. But this means his naphtha wont be as saturated.

So say I wanted to extract 100g bark, I'd use 50ml naphtha, do 3-4x pulls, and the 4th or 5th pull I'd mix it for longer than the other pulls and freeze/evap separately. Then if this 4/5th pull still has significant amounts compared to the last pulls (say, >0.15g compared to 1g from all other pulls combined), I'd do another pull (or more), until very little or next to nothing is yielded.

I know this is Cyb's tek, excuse me for that, but I felt like I needed to put this here

 

[cyb]

remember the acacia pool example?

Tsk Tsk...Curse you and your Hippy Homeopathy...It's all Witchcraft I tell ya... .

 

[MystiCat]

THANK YOU SO MUCH! Now I know what I've been trying to learn here since day one, you have no idea how much I appreciate it lol. I've been trying to figure out this whole time whats up with the ratios and stuff, and now I finally know

 

[some one]

Wow same here. Glad I read this. Thanks for clarifying that one up endlessness and also cyb for your explanation.

 

[Earthwalker]

IME I use 2 x 2 ltr bottles with 125g -150g per bottle with this TEK

ACRB TEK 100g "PICS" (Newbie Friendly) - A/B - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Edit : also combine all pulls then do the mini AB or nps clean up because the fats are that saturated it's gunna be hard to yeild full fledged crystaline yeilds remember this is IMO or IME :thumb_up:

 

[MystiCat]

IME I use 2 x 2 ltr bottles with 125g -150g per bottle with this TEK

ACRB TEK 100g "PICS" (Newbie Friendly) - A/B - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Edit : also combine all pulls then do the mini AB or nps clean up because the fats are that saturated it's gunna be hard to yeild full fledged crystaline yeilds remember this is IMO or IME :thumb_up:

Where do you find 2 liter glass bottles at?

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Where do you find 2 liter glass bottles at?

Just go out and find some.

 

[Earthwalker]

IME I use 2 x 2 ltr bottles with 125g -150g per bottle with this TEK

ACRB TEK 100g "PICS" (Newbie Friendly) - A/B - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Edit : also combine all pulls then do the mini AB or nps clean up because the fats are that saturated it's gunna be hard to yeild full fledged crystaline yeilds remember this is IMO or IME :thumb_up:

Where do you find 2 liter glass bottles at?

Old 2ltr port flagon bottles work a treat if you can find em , otherwise look everywhere and anywhere but olive oil bottles , vinegar bottles or juice bottles work just aswell !

 

[1ce]

I have a method that always works well for me. I use 10ml water for 1g bark, although you could use less. I typically extract 50g at a time so I'm really only using half a liter of liquid.

I use a 5% sodium hydroxide solution. No ratios here, just a flat percentage.

I highly prefer using chloroform or methylene dichloride as an extraction solvent because not only are they more efficient at pulling goodies, they allow you to use completely different techniques. On a level of practicality, naptha would be a better choice for many of you. So let's figure that you filter your bark after an acid boil, I wash (defat step here) my acidic solution with .02% of my volume I'm extracting. Liquid to liquid extractions are the way to go.

The math here is V x .02 where V=volume of acidic liquid. An example is I use 500ml liquid so I would wash with 10ml naptha.

Now, if I were to use naptha I find a formula of V x .05 works pretty good. So multiply your volume of solvent by .05 and that's how many ml naptha I'd use. So for a 50g extraction using 500ml liquid I'd do 500x.05=25. So 25ml naptha per pull.

2000(ml)x.05=100(ml) so for 2L I'd pull using 100ml naptha.

So after I was done with washing (most here call it a defat, but it's called a wash) my solution I'll boil it down to 350ml stirring frequently. Why do I stir frequently? I stir frequently to evenly distribute heat throughout my solution. I will add 150ml basic solution to bring my total volume back to 500. I keep this in mind while adding my lye; so when I add it, I'm adding 5% lye to a 500ml solution, not 150ml..

I'm working on a different approach to naptha extractions/washes that will allow people alot more ease of extracting. It's something I've found to be quite efective extracting other materials where the specific gravity of your solvent is less than the liquid your extracting. (Cuz napths floats on top). I think it'll prove useful for many members here.