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Advice on dose size! !!

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PurpleTurtle

Rising Star
GREETINGS!! long time lurker first time posting. So I used dmt twice when I was 18 (now 31) had what would probably be considered sub breakthrough experiences. Enjoyed imensly but didn't feel ready or the need to push it any further at the time.
Roll on 13 years bucket loads of psychedelics used mainly Acid and mushrooms and 2cb but experimented with several others also. Predominantly positive experiences with the exeption of one or 2 extremely difficult acid trips which were caused by overindulgence and mixing with other drugs. Anyway this last year I have been feeling 'the call' to go back and do dmt. So I am all ready to go. Done my first extraction pretty happy with results have secured good smoking apartus and my brother to trip sit next weekend.
So to the actual point of my post then. My first dose size.I am considering any thing between 15 and 30 mg. Now currently i am not nervous at all. Just crazy excited. From reading numerous posts on this forum I know this is probably nievity on my part kind of an ignorance is bliss scenario. Should I use my current fearless state to my advantage and hit the 30mg dose for the full breakthrough experience or should I be cautious and start at 15 and work my way up? Any input would be very welcome, iv got a week or so to consider as I have taken next weekend off from work and responsibilities to experiment with this mystical molecule. Thanks for reading , Peace and love :)
 
what kind of smoking device will you be using?
depending on that and who skilled you are with it 30mg can be a full breakthrough.

i personally would go for the 30mg dose.
 
Start low and slowly work your way up.

I personally dose quite high, which suits my technique, however, everybody has different techniques and biochemistry, which is why it's best to start low and slowly work your way up until you find the dose range Which suits your technique, smoking utensil, and biochemistry. (Doing this one can also gain an understanding of the compound at many different dose levels, which I feel is important if one truly wants to know and understand this substance. There are many varieties of the DMT experience, and many factors which may affect said experience, such as biochemistry, currant mental state, stress levels, diet, sleep, set and setting, and so on...

I have heard of breakthrough experiences at as low as 30-50mgs, however, if necessary, it's not unheard of to dose as high as 100mgs...


Below, when it discusses oral dose, this is WITHOUT an MAOI.
DMT

Dose
60 - 100 mg (intramuscularly)
60 - 100 mg (subcutaneously)
60 - 100 mg (smoking)
4 - 30 mg (intravenously)

DURATION : Up to 1h

QUALITATIVE COMMENTS : (with 150 mg, orally) "No observable psychic or vegetative effects."

(with 250 mg, orally) "It was inactive."

(with 350 mg, orally) "Completely without effect either physiological or psychological."

(with 100 mg, via the buccal mucosa) "Numbness at the site, but no central effects."

(with 20 mg, intramuscularly) "I began to see patterns on the wall that were continuously moving. They were transparent, and were not colored. After a short period these patterns became the heads of animals, a fox, a snake, a dragon. Then kaleidoscopic images appeared to me in my inner eye, fantastically beautiful and colored."

(with 30 mg, intramuscularly) "There was eye dilation and, subjectively, some perception disturbances."

(with 50 mg, intramuscularly) "I feel strange, everything is blurry. I want my mother, I am afraid of fainting, I can't breathe."

(with 60 mg, intramuscularly) "I don't like this feeling -- I am not myself. I saw such strange dreams a while ago. Strange creatures, dwarfs or something; they were black and moved about. Now I feel as if I am not alive. My left hand is numb. As if my heart would not beat, as if I had no body, no nothing. All I feel are my left hand and stomach. I don't like to be without thoughts."

(with 75 mg, intramuscularly) "The third or fourth minute after the injection vegetative symptoms appeared, such as tingling sensation, trembling, slight nausea, mydriasis, elevation of the blood pressure and increase of the pulse rate. At the same time, eidetic phenomena, optical illusions, pseudohallucinations, and later real hallucinations, appeared. The hallucinations consisted of moving, brilliantly colored oriental motifs, and later I saw wonderful scenes altering very rapidly. The faces of people seemed to be masks. My emotional state was elevated sometimes up to euphoria. At the highest point I had compulsive athetoid movements in my left hand. My consciousness was completely filled by hallucinations, and my attention was firmly bound to them; therefore I could not give an account of the events happening to me. After 3/4 to 1 hour the symptoms disappeared, and I was able to describe what had happened.

(with 80 mg, intramuscularly) "My perceptual distortions were visual in nature and with my eyes closed I could see colored patterns, primarily geometrical patterns moving very fast, having sometimes very deep emotional content and connotation. My blood pressure went up and my pupils were dilated."

(with 30 mg smoked) "I spread it evenly on a joint of Tanacetum vulgare and melted it with a heat lamp. In about 30 seconds a strong light-headedness starts, with a feeling of temporal pressure. Some yellowing of the visual field. There was nothing for me to do because I had to turn complete control over to the drug. Off the plateau in 3-4 minutes and the fact that the radio was on became apparent. I was out in a few more minutes."

(with 60 mg smoked) "We did it together. Swift entry -- head overwhelmed -- elaborate and exotic. Slightly threatening patterns -- no insight -- slight sense of cruelty and sharpness between us, but enjoying. His face, as before with MDA, demonic but pleasantly so. He said he saw my face as a mask. He asked me to let him see my teeth. I laughed -- aware that laughter slightly not-funny. Heavy, massive intoxication. Time extension extraordinary. What seemed like 2 hrs was about 30 minutes."

(with 60 mg smoked) "Rapid onset, and in a completely stoned isolation in about a minute for about three minutes. Slow return but continued afterglow (pleasant) for thirty minutes. Repeated three times, with no apparent tolerance or change in chronology. Easily handled. The intoxication is of limited usefulness but the residues are completely relaxing,"

(with 100 mg, smoked) "As I exhaled I became terribly afraid, my heart very rapid and strong, palms sweating. A terrible sense of dread and doom filled me -- I knew what was happening, I knew I couldn't stop it, but it was so devastating; I was being destroyed -- all that was familiar, all reference points, all identity -- all viciously shattered in a few seconds. I couldn't even mourn the loss -- there was no one left to do the mourning. Up, up, out, out, eyes closed, I am at the speed of light, expanding, expanding, expanding, faster and faster until I have become so large that I no longer exist -- my speed is so great that everything has come to a stop -- here I gaze upon the entire universe."

(with 15 mg, intravenously) "An almost instantaneous rush began in the head and I was quickly scattered. Rapidly moving and intensely colored visuals were there, and I got into some complex scenes. There were few sounds, and those that were there were not of anyone talking. I was able to continue to think clearly."

(with 30 mg, intravenously) "I was hit harder that I had ever been when smoking the stuff. The onset was similar, but the euphoria was less."

-Shulgin;TIHKAL
Click to expand...

-eg
 
When reading about claims regarding dose size, it’s important to remember that the size of a dose in a smoking device is always going to be larger than the amount of DMT entering your body. Efficiency varies significantly.

In this context, I define efficiency as the percentage of a dose entering the body in a short enough period of time to render the entire amount active. Efficiency depends on both the nature of the device being used and the technique of the user. Some devices are incredibly efficient with proper technique. Some devices are inefficient regardless of technique. With poor technique, even the best devices become inefficient.

Maximum efficiency via vaporization is achieved with a single rapid inhalation of a dose in a device that quickly and completely vaporizes the entire amount in the device.

Low efficiency can result from a device that melts the DMT and allows it to migrate to an area where it can’t be vaporized, or a device that burns the DMT, or a device that produces vapor at a slow rate. Inhaling a dose in multiple small hits over an extended period of time will result in low efficiency.

Be skeptical when individuals suggest they use very large doses (100+ mg). It is likely that device and/or technique are inefficient for such users.

The Strassman studies, which used IV DMT-fumarate, found 0.2mg/kg to be a threshold dose – “the threshold at which typical psychedelic effects reliably emerged”. Tolerance studies were done at 0.3mg/kg, and produced “the full spectrum of mind-altering effects”. The standard test dose was 0.4mg/kg, and it was found that a dose of 0.5mg/kg was high. Strassman refers to a 0.6mg/kg dose as an overdose.

For someone who weighs 70kg, a dose of 28mg DMT-fumarate produced incredibly intense and often transformative experiences. (To the chemists out there – how much DMT freebase equals 28mg DMT-fumarate?)

Based on the Strassman data and my experiences using an efficient device with good technique, I’d say 20 – 30mg is the sweet spot.
 
gibran2 said:
For someone who weighs 70kg, a dose of 28mg DMT-fumarate produced incredibly intense and often transformative experiences. (To the chemists out there – how much DMT freebase equals 28mg DMT-fumarate?)
Click to expand...

Freebase DMT has a molecular weight of about 188.269. Fumaric acid has a molecular weight of 116.07. DMT fumarate has a molecular weight of about 492.608 (DMT + fumaric acid + DMT).

So, 28 mg are about 0.000057 moles of DMT-fumerate. We would so need 0.000114 moles of DMT-freebase, which are about 21.5 mg. So by loading 25 mg one should be satisfied.

(I'm not a chemist btw)



In your opinion, by using the "meth pipe" with reasonable technique, how much product could be lost?
 
Complexity said:
In your opinion, by using the "meth pipe" with reasonable technique, how much product could be lost?
Click to expand...
I honestly don’t know. Each device/user is unique, so I suggest working up from the low-dose end in increments of 5mg or so. The dose-response curve is not linear – going from 15 to 20mg is a moderate step, going from 20 to 25mg is a big step, and going from 25 to 30mg is an enormous leap.
 
Because there is more than one way to skin a cat and because different people learn better through different methods;

DMT freebase molecular weight = 188
DMT fumarate molecular weight = 492 (188+188+116) (one fumaric acid and two DMT molecules)

So, (188+188)/492 = x/28mg ... solve for x

x = 28mg(188+188)/492

x = 21.4 ... 21.4mg DMT freebase = 28g DMT fumarate

Well, I arrived at a different answer and I don't claim to be anything more than an amateur chemist(two semesters of inorganic and one of organic), so maybe someone will check our work.
 
gibran2 said:
Complexity said:
In your opinion, by using the "meth pipe" with reasonable technique, how much product could be lost?
Click to expand...
I honestly don’t know. Each device/user is unique, so I suggest working up from the low-dose end in increments of 5mg or so. The dose-response curve is not linear – going from 15 to 20mg is a moderate step, going from 20 to 25mg is a big step, and going from 25 to 30mg is an enormous leap.
Click to expand...

Any time a flame is employed for vaporizing, it is very easy to destroy 90+% of the spice. The flame is going to be between 1000C and 2000C. The tip of the flame will be at minimum 800C. Anything over 150C will start to oxidize and/or degrade the DMT. Some practice and careful technique can bring the waste down to maybe 10%. With the meth/crack pipe method of applying the flames heat through glass, the waste can go down, but if enough heat is applied to efficiently vaporize, chances are that it's going to get a bit too hot and the glass will retain heat and continue to burn the spice after the hit is taken. You will know this is happening when the second hit is significantly more harsh than the first.

I have not tested it yet, but I am going to an E-cig as the temperature can be more accurately regulated. I would imagine that one could use a fine tip heat gun and a regular pipe to achieve similar efficiency. I like to introduce new people to the spice who are not psychonauts and the learning curve for utilizing flame can be too much for some since it's very wasteful and harsh if it gets too hot and fairly useless if too cold.
 
syberdelic said:
I have not tested it yet, but I am going to an E-cig as the temperature can be more accurately regulated. I would imagine that one could use a fine tip heat gun and a regular pipe to achieve similar efficiency. I like to introduce new people to the spice who are not psychonauts and the learning curve for utilizing flame can be too much for some since it's very wasteful and harsh if it gets too hot and fairly useless if too cold.
Click to expand...
Keep in mind that an e-cig dilutes the vapor, rendering it less efficient than a device that produces pure DMT vapor.
 
I have constructed 'the machine'and am pretty happy with how it turned out. I have also made a vaporizer which seems to be quite popular on youtube with a sodapop bottle cut in half and tin foil wrapped around the bottom. I have about 1,5 grams of product so with trial and error I'm sure I'll get there just dont want to overshoot and put myself off. I'll let you guys know how I get on ....see you on the other side :)
 
PurpleTurtle said:
I have constructed 'the machine'and am pretty happy with how it turned out. I have also made a vaporizer which seems to be quite popular on youtube with a sodapop bottle cut in half and tin foil wrapped around the bottom. I have about 1,5 grams of product so with trial and error I'm sure I'll get there just dont want to overshoot and put myself off. I'll let you guys know how I get on ....see you on the other side :)
Click to expand...

The soda bottle relies on vapourisation by way of conduction whereby the product that you are trying to vapourise comes into direct contact with the flame via the tin foil. This can be very hard to gauge and control the temperature at which your dmt vapourises. Also the foil heats up really quickly which further complicates matters. There is a high chance that you will burn the dmt using the soda pop method. Efficacy will be greatly reduced which doesn't help in finding the particular dose weight for your sweet spot. Burnt dmt is really horrible to smoke and will not lead to a decent frame of mind in which to get the best out of the experience. Burning my dmt while using the soda pop bottle method almost put me off of dmt.

I can't comment on the machine as i've never used one but i have read positive reports about it.

Vapourisation by convection, where the air around the dmt is heated, is preferable. It provides more accurate temperature control and lower risk of burning the dmt and, as Gibran stated, getting the entire dose in in as short a time as possible also promotes efficacy. All in one hit is ideal. Faffing about trying to take the second or third hit is distracting. You want your dose to go in in one hit and then you can get on with the job of
trying to relax/let go in order to let the experience unfold.
 
syberdelic said:
Because there is more than one way to skin a cat and because different people learn better through different methods;

DMT freebase molecular weight = 188
DMT fumarate molecular weight = 492 (188+188+116) (one fumaric acid and two DMT molecules)

So, (188+188)/492 = x/28mg ... solve for x

x = 28mg(188+188)/492

x = 21.4 ... 21.4mg DMT freebase = 28g DMT fumarate

Well, I arrived at a different answer and I don't claim to be anything more than an amateur chemist(two semesters of inorganic and one of organic), so maybe someone will check our work.
Click to expand...

Actually you arrived to my same result (the 0.1 mg difference is probably due to approximations)

By the way this is in the end High School math, I really hope we're doing it right:p
 
Oh :shock: I was for some reason looking at the 25mg number.

So, yea let's call it 21.45mg

And, yes I'm aware of the slower delivery via e-cig. This is why I plan in mixing harmine with DMT in my E-juice. I'm kinda tired of the 15 minute trips anyway. And I've been looking into the drippers. They seem to have the potential of delivering a full breakthrough dose in one hit.
 
gibran2 said:
The dose-response curve is not linear – going from 15 to 20mg is a moderate step, going from 20 to 25mg is a big step, and going from 25 to 30mg is an enormous leap.
Click to expand...

This is very true. For me, the difference between a 10mg and 15mg dose is massive. 10mg gave me nothing more than bright blue and orange light behind closed eyes. 15mg stripped my memory of smoking the spice and sent me to a different realm.
 
Twofaced26 said:
gibran2 said:
The dose-response curve is not linear – going from 15 to 20mg is a moderate step, going from 20 to 25mg is a big step, and going from 25 to 30mg is an enormous leap.
Click to expand...

This is very true. For me, the difference between a 10mg and 15mg dose is massive. 10mg gave me nothing more than bright blue and orange light behind closed eyes. 15mg stripped my memory of smoking the spice and sent me to a different realm.
Click to expand...

I think that it's important to point out that dosage can change a lot from one person to another. It's not just the vaping technique. Different people have different tolerances to DMT regardless of what else is in their system.

One person might have a breakthrough with 50mg whereas it will be a blackout for the next and yet one person I know, that would be a threshold experience. We all need to stop telling each other what the right dose for them is. Yes, the middle of the bell curve seems to be around 40mg but from my experience administering DMT to others, it is a wide bell curve with only around half of people falling near the median. There was one person long ago that I loaded up around 25mg for because they only wanted to go half way and it turns out that they went fully into hyperspace.

The bottom line is that we all need to learn our own dosage curves. Start low and increase until you get where you want to go. We are all similar, but no two people are the same.
 
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